[Shamaya]

I'm not gonna lie, I physically felt sick after I finished this project. Some of you may remember past discussion on this awhile back. This has been nagging for awhile, and while the basic mechanics of SA/TA have been understood for awhile (ie, a single point of dex/agi increases base damage by one. the strike will be a critical which will not miss if landed correctly), wiki alone doesn't help to decide just how much better a single point of dex is than attack, or if a single point of haste is better than a single point of dex, etc.

But, to some extent or another, I finally figured it out. The article in my blog is <a href="http://shamayaasura.livejournal.com/7505.html" target="_blank">How to Maximize Sa/Ta Damage</a>. So for detailed reading, I'd go there instead. Posting it all here would be 'tldr', so here is an abridged version.

I've come up with the following ratios for the relative values of various stats that can affect Sa/Ta damage (/nin).

Sneak Attack
1Dbl.Atk = 1
1TripleAtk = 2.38 (d.a.)
1Dex = 2.58 (d.a.)
1Str = 1.20 (d.a.)
1Attack = 1.19 (d.a.)
1Slow(2xMarch,Haste) = -2.64 (d.a.)
1D.Wield(2xMarch,Haste) = 2.16 (d.a.)
1Haste(2xMarch,Haste) = 2.65 (d.a.)
1Haste(1xMarch,Haste) = 2.22 (d.a.)
1Haste(NoMarch,Haste) = 1.84 (d.a.)

Trick Attack
1Dbl.Atk = 1
1TripleAtk = 2.51
1Agi = 3.35
1Dex = 0.39
1Str = 1.29
1Attack = 1.26
1Slow(2xMarch,Haste) = -3.50
1D.Wield(2xMarch,Haste) = 2.59
1Haste(2xMarch,Haste) = 3.50
1Haste(1xMarch,Haste) = 2.89
1Haste(NoMarch,Haste) = 2.43

These values are all relative to how much a single point of double attack increases damage.

I've also used this to rank SA/TA gear accordingly,

Sneak Attack
(head) Maat's Cap (26.46) > Skadi's Visor (25.41) > Gnadbhod's Helm (13.84) > AF2 (12.9) = Turban (13.25) > Emp.Pin (7.74) > Heca+1 (0.84)
(neck) Love Torque (20.04) > Kubira Bead Necklace (15.08) > Spike Necklace (11.34)
(ears) Suppanomimi (10.8) > Pixie (7.74) => Merman's (7.14) > Hollow/Adroit (5.16) = Coral (5.95) = Brutal (5.0)
(body) Dragon Harness+1 (32.34) > Skadi (26.59) = DH nq (27.38) > Anatares Harness (20.64) > BlueCote+1 (16.32) > WarAketon +1 (12.9) > Rapp (10.6)
(hand) ANNM Dragon Mitts (20.44) > Skadi Bazubands (17.9) > Dusk+1(2xMarch) (17.74)* > Enkidu's (15.12) => Tarasque Mitts +1 (14.28) => Dusk(2xMarch) (13.9)* > Merman's (8.94) > AF (7.74) > Heca +1 (4.02)
(rings) Rajas Ring (18.9) > 5Dex Ring (12.9)
(back) Charger's (23.8) => Cerberus Mantle +1 (22.65) > Forager's (21.45) > Amemet +1 (20.25) > Cuchulain's (15.12) > Commander's (11.34) > AF2 (10.32)
(waist) Cuchulain's Belt (27.38) > Ninurta's (23.04) > Warwolf (18.9) > Speed Belt (15.9) > Swordbelt +1 (14.28)
(leg)Enkidu's (18.9) > Dusk (16.66)* > Hecatomb Subligar +1 (12.44) = Heca nq (12.76) > Dragon+1 (12.9) = Barbarossa's (12.75) > Dragon nq (10.32)
(feet) Enkidu's (17.8) > Dragon +1(13.89) > Dragon (10.12) => Dusk (10.06)* > Leapers (7.74)

Trick Attack
(head) Maat's Cap (35.21) > Skadi's Visor (33.02) > Denali Bonnet (31.18) > Dragon+1 (16.75) > Turban (17.5) > Dragon (13.4) > Emp.Pin (11.22)
(neck) Hope Torque (16.75) > Crocodile Collar (13.4) > Love Torque (9.51) > Agile Gorget (6.7) => Justice Torque (6.45) => Tiger Stole (6.3) > Spike Necklace (5.04)
(ears) Suppanomimi (19.65) > Genin (13.4) > Drone (10.05) > Merman's (7.56) > Coral (6.3) => Brutal (5.0)
(body) Denali Jacket (44.84) > Dragon Harness +1 (41.3) > Skadi (36.22) > DH nq (35.04) > Antares Harness (26.8) > BlueCote+1(24.76) > Rapp (14.0)
(hand) AF+1 (?, ~54.77) > Skadi (35.8) > Dusk+1(2xMarch) (21.56)* = Dragon+1 (20.53) > Dusk(2xMarch) (16.8)* = Dragon (15.92) => Tarasque Mitts +1 (15.12)
(rings) 5Agi Ring (16.75) > Rajas (8.4)
(back) Charger's (25.2) => Cerberus Mantle +1 (24.06) > Forager's (22.77) > Amemet +1 (21.48) > Commander's (15.09) = AF2 (14.96)
(waist) Ninurta Sash (28.56) > Speed Belt (21.0) > Grenadier Belt (18.87) > Swordbelt +1 (15.12) => Scouter's (13.4) > Ryl. Knight's Belt (10.06) > Vanguard Belt (10.17) > Warwolf Belt (8.4) => Swift Belt (7.7)
(leg) Dusk+1 (18.9)* > Dusk (17.64)* > War Brais +1 (16.75) > Barbarossa's (15.66) > WarBrais/AF (13.4) > Heca nq (-13.68) > Hecatomb Subligar +1 (-17.77)
(feet) Enkidu's (23.26) > Dragon +1 (18.74) > Dragon (13.74) > Dusk (13.3)* > Leapers (11.22)

For the mathematically inclined, I used the following formula to measure the marginal increase of damage from an SA/TA "act":
<div align='center'><!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->(SA/TA round Dmg) - (TP round opportunity cost)
=
(Initial Critical Hit)+(Extra Swings) - (dDelay Function)*(TP round Dmg)

=
{(Main. +fStr'a +Dex/Agi)*(pDif'a+1) + [(Main. +fStr'a)*Dbl./Trip.Atks + (Off. + fStr'a)*(1 + Dbl./Trip.Atks)]*(CritRate'a*(pDif'a+1) + NonCritRate'a*pDif'a)}
- ((delayTP - delaySA)/delayTP)*[(Main. + Off. +2fStr'*(CritRate'b*(pDif'b+1) + NonCritRate'b*pDif'*(1 + Dbl./Trip.Atks)*Accuracy<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--></div>There's more detail on understanding the formula in the LJ. Also included is the method that I used to come up with the stat ratios and corresponding gear rankings, excel spreadsheets included. Short story, I used my base sa/ta gear (that I knew for sure were the best options), my tp gear, the standard lvl82 greater colibri, double-march/haste and an accuracy buff, and variable gear options to create a spreadsheet of over 950 gear combinations for SA and over 100 for TA. From there, I found the best sets for each and simply worked out how much a single point of an attribute increased total damage, and then rationalized them.

These stat ratios are by all means not going to hold for every single situation in the game, simply due to the wide range of enemies, equip sets, and other conditions. The gear rankings should generally hold pretty well for most situations though, I think.

So yeahhhh...

(edited 9-25-09, to fix critical error with haste calc, as well as many other smaller updates)

[pathwriter]

I am confused by two things.

Why is Haste (and Dual Wield, for that matter) factored into effective gear for Sneak Attack or Trick Attack at all?

Why are Strider Boots applied to Sneak Attack, much less ranked so highly?

For the sake of argument, you might consider where Mirke Wardecors (5 STR/DEX/AGI) ranks irrelevant of its augments (since most Thieves seem to favor Accuracy and Dual Wield).

[rambus]

Very Very awesome post. Kudos to you. For back I don't see cuchlain's mantle listed, I am wondering where it would be placed. Obviously ahead of commanders.

To answer the above poster:
The reason haste / delay reduction / slow is factored into the calculations is because that slowing down your next attack round is essentially costing you damage. Unto this, his goal was to figure out how much damage was needed to offset the reduction in attack time. This is not a list for sneak/trick that are used in a run-in/run-out scenario, rather it was for sneak and trick used in the middle of Tping, for those that cant TP fast enough to hit timers.

EG. If you have sneak and or trick up and your tp is only at 50%, its better to hit sneak / trick and wait for the next timer, or continuing this, its better to unstack a WS instead of wait on timers.

There is some debate on this as far as the area of Mercy is concerned, because holding tp for 5-6 seconds often will do greater damage because of Mercy's lovey tendency to become awesome when stacked. In any given minute I usually am able to 2-3 times, favoring 3. Sneak Mercy, Trick Mercy, Unstacked EV, repeat. Using sneak and trick independently is simply not an option to me.

Edit: I too am curious at why striders / skadi were ranked so highly.

well it is Ta/ and sa seperation, maybe to run around the mob?

as far as haste thing can't you time it so you hit the macro just before you hit?

like swing > SA wait a sec > hit macro (gear with slow on it or w/e) > plant the SA. now i do not have slow gear so i do not know first hand how much it is effected by doing this. however i know it can be quite hard of doing my sudestion due to the nature of tipple attack and having a good amount of haste to make it almost seemless attack rounds.

[Ezell]

I remember this conversation a year or so ago, maybe even longer. I was still living in MT.

I thought about this for a while, about how to build the best set, about what would be a good trade off and from what slot could you lose DEX to sac for Haste.

Than after countless hours thinking about it I realized that the only way for this theory, or line of thought to work is that the fight has to be in a vacum. In order for this to work you have to assume a few things.

1: You arn't starting the fight with SA/TA or SA/TA+WS.
2: Your SA/TA timmer never melds with your TP
3: Your SA/TA attack doesn't kill the mob
4: SA+WS or TA+WS kills the mob

If any of these circumstances happen to occur during your fight this "Theory" falls appart.

Also as I was told by another THF....."Just get a Mandau and none of this applies to you ever."

Alot of work but if you thought about it, you'd see this is an excerise in "what if" and "never going to happen"

4:

[Danath2000]

So this isnt a "maximum SA/TA unstacked damage build", but more as in "Maximizing SA/TA unstacked in a merit/TP situation"?

Frankly I'm baffled, I know run speed is yay, but striders are superior to skadi for SA? Suppa is the best earring? Does this only apply if your not using WS? This seems really on the margins considering how fast most mobs, mamool or otherwise seem to die in an actual merit situation if thats the case.

Edit: Just for clarification, what if I don't care about the effect of slow from hecatomb, and just want to do the absolute highest amount of damage with my SA, TA, or SAWS/TAWS? Do the rankings change?

[rambus]

Its the following hit round which is affected. If you connect with slow gear on, no matter if its removed, you will have the delay between the hit and the next round increased by said amount of slow / lack of haste.

Ohhhh again i do not have any slow gear so i would not able to see that for my self

thanks XD

I do not think this is for WS I think it is solo SA or solo TA by the looks of it.

[BuGGaTon]

If you're /nin then why isn't accuracy figured into this guide for the purposes of your offhand hit?

Frankly I'm baffled, I know run speed is yay, but striders are superior to skadi for SA? Suppa is the best earring? Does this only apply if your not using WS?

Yes, I think that is entirely the point of this guide.

[treelo]

If you're /nin then why isn't accuracy figured into this guide for the purposes of your offhand hit?

Read the blog, offhand is 100% accurate on a SA attack round.

What goes into calculating SA dmg and TP round dmg? A lot and a little. For SA, the SA big crit dmg = mainhand weapon dmg + fStr + total Dex. Also accuracy will be 100% in this case. Other little known fact, but every attack in that melee round will be 100% accuracy, including your offhand hit, or any double or triple attack procs that might go off on either hand during the SA attack round.

Some of the "unusual" ranking for certain items are based upon their use in melee situations rather than SA. Rather than comparing just haste/slow and SA dmg, the formula seems to take into account the additional melee damage you'll gain from STR/Attk which is equally important to the time lost wearing Slow%.

It would be interesting to see some parse results comparing the two methods, to back up the theory itself.

[Danath2000]

So for the helm, for pure damage, would gnadgbods helm be better than hecatomb for thf? If we completely ignore slow and are maximizing SA damage? I'm ignoring Skadi as well, since its the +haste that makes it so high.

[Sozsensur]

My only question to you, super duper buddy, is that even though the speed plus the agility of S Boots is great for TA, can you justify whatever time it would take to immediately switch back to TPing in Skadi Feet? I think at best, they equal each other; saying Boots are greater seems like a stretch.

Nah mean? But very excellent work as usual.

[Shamaya]

Mirax definitely does a good job of clarifying a lot of the questions people are having on this. This is a general guide though. Situational but useful and helps as a frame of reference. Ya gotta start somewhere, ya know?

Ezell I think your 4 points have more to do with what is the best overall playstyle rather than what will be the best gear for your sa/ta after you've already decided on an sa/ta. Except for #3. That is one of the many small exceptions that makes applied mathematical ventures like these only semi-reliable. Likewise this doesn't account for missed sa/ta's if the mob turns, or for dart-in dart-outs, etc.

For cuchulain's back, Mirax, I just forgot to add it. I'd just use the reference numbers (stat ratios) to find out how it stacks up, as they should be accurate enough, and solving such queries is largely the purpose of those ratios.

As for the strider/skadi thing, I might be opinionated in that I feel confident that they are the best option without question. But as I don't have anything hard to back that up I'm gonna edit this when I'm not lazy to leave more of the solid material. But for a particular excerpt,

Even if you're behind the mob when you're prepping your sa/ta, it only takes 1 exp party or similar situation for you to be able to see my point exactly. People pull hate. Mobs spin. This happens all the time. This aside, it's a good idea to prep sa/ta's before fights when effective. For both of these situations, increasing your movement speed and landing a clean (reliable) and quick sa/ta is going to improve damage more than extra stats. It's a matter of balancing probability against raw stats.

If it spins, you're not catching it, not with 12% movement speed, not with flee. Not with our low delay anyway, you might catch up once in a blue moon, but yeah.

For HNM's, it's also convenient to have them in your set. If you really want, you can make a separate set for HNM's ( my /war /drk sa/ta builds don't have suppa, for example). On some HNM's, they don't want you meleeing. They want you sa'ing and (sometimes) ta'ing. When I went thf/sam to khimaira the other day, I would dart in and sa/feint between tp moves. Sometimes I'd make it out just in time b4 another tp move went off.

You have a low delay SA and TA build and use it everywhere. Guess I can stop feeling bad about just having a max damage set and using it everywhere. ;p

The point is that, on average, in my opinion movement speed for your sa/ta set allows you to reach the mob faster, giving you a certain probability of extra hits, while also allowing you to respond faster to changes and land your ja reliably.

Example one, you prep your sa/ta before a fight and run towards the mob. Hate possibly hasn't settled yet either and the mob could be turning erratically, along with the other players whom are just engaging. You could just equip your 'walking' set and switch to sa/ta set at the last second, but it's clumsy and out of irritation you'll probably just full time the sa/ta set. So might as well just keep the boots in the set.

Another example. You're mid fight. You're even lined up behind the mob. You pop sa. Mob turns. You unlock, turn around, and head to its back. It turns again, so you have to do more running. Etc. Or you could pop ta, and the player in front of you could move, due to one of a variety of reasons that cause people to often turn mid-fight.

Both of these situations, landing the attack quicker and more reliably is going to exceed a few points of damage gained by a different piece. I used to use dusk trousers for years. When I switched to dragon/warbrais+1 I was an immediate convert and never went back. Same principle w/ the boots. Likewise this also helps w/ HNM, as mentioned in the quotes above.


Baha's post was the last in that thread, but I didn't reply because there was no need. It's fairly obvious that when a mob turns, you can unlock your target and manually run around. Sometimes it catches you real low on your delay like Baha mentioned, but the vast majority of the time this has happened to me (hundreds at least), turning away was no problem.

In 2009 I think we rely a lot on hard numbers in FF theorycrafting. But many times they can be of little help at all. And as you add more and more factors the formulas become more difficult and it becomes hard to generalize anything.

[treelo]

Relying entirely on theorycraft alone is a dangerous thing.

Example one, you prep your sa/ta before a fight and run towards the mob. Hate possibly hasn't settled yet either and the mob could be turning erratically, along with the other players whom are just engaging. You could just equip your 'walking' set and switch to sa/ta set at the last second, but it's clumsy and out of irritation you'll probably just full time the sa/ta set. So might as well just keep the boots in the set.

Most merit parties have a provoke of some description. Failing that, give it an attack round or two and I can tell you where hate is going to be. Outside of a TP burn situation this becomes a moot point, because mobs generally don't move that much.

Another example. You're mid fight. You're even lined up behind the mob. You pop sa. Mob turns. You unlock, turn around, and head to its back. It turns again, so you have to do more running. Etc. Or you could pop ta, and the player in front of you could move, due to one of a variety of reasons that cause people to often turn mid-fight.

I would NEVER turn my back on a mob in a merit situation. I don't care if you have Flee up, or your name is Usain Bolt, it's a hell of a lot better to just accept the fact you lost SA and keep meleeing. Those few seconds you spend dicking around trying to get behind the mob again will amount to an attack round at the bare minimum. If you're trying to stack a WS, same thing applies. Again, this is irrelevant outside of TP burns.

Both of these situations, landing the attack quicker and more reliably is going to exceed a few points of damage gained by a different piece. I used to use dusk trousers for years. When I switched to dragon/warbrais+1 I was an immediate convert and never went back. Same principle w/ the boots. Likewise this also helps w/ HNM, as mentioned in the quotes above.

I still TP in Dusk Gloves, and chances are I'll reach the mob at pretty much the same time you will. The distances travelled negates the movement speed penalty as a good bard will be pulling mobs as close to you as possible. As for the Khim example, I idle in my WS gear while waiting for meditate, when I need that extra 40% TP, I'll prep SA and run in (with no dusk on) and then switch to TP gear, knowledge of the safe distance for most AoE TP moves will cut down a lot of travelling. I'll admit that having movement speed helps when you're running out, but it's very rare you'll have time to melee and prep a stacked WS before the subsequent TP move hits you. Ensuring you get at least one accurate attack round in before you retreat is a lot more reliable than hoping you can run away quick enough if you happen to miss a hit or two.

[Danath2000]

I was thinking damn near everything Treelo said, but didn't want to say anything, also I tend not to prep SA at all, if the bird happens to be facing away from me, I will hit SA/WS as fast as I can, but in a merit pt with sams/drgs spamming, there is no real point to prepping SA (And I found not wanting to "waste" the SA I would waste precious seconds running around trying to land it). Also, full timing SA/TA Set? In a merit? Hell no, that's far worse than full timing my TP gear, as I spend far more time meleeing than I do hitting SA or TA. Also If I DO hit SA and the mob turns, but I know the other DD is going to get it back in just a second, I will turn for a fraction of a second, and that's all, anymore and you're just wasting too much time considering the speed that mobs die at, there is just no point.

Also frankly on Khim, if you happen to run in, and YOUR hit is the one that gives him enough TP to WS, unless its Fulm, you are NOT getting out of range, even with Skadi (Exception, behind Khim it seems easier to get out of range than from the "sides"), and if its NOT your hit that gives him that last bit of TP, then you will get out of range, no sweat. The only HNM I can think of that run speed REALLY helped me out on is DI, Because hes an ass with his turning lazers of firey burning lightning... that burn... like firey burning. And of course running in and out constantly to maximize my attack rounds (TA is pointless cause of his reduced frontal damage unless horn is broken, and the other melee aren't very happy if I TA them, unless its a drg). In any of these situations we want to maximize our per hit damage/accuracy, not our attack rounds, due to the brief period we GET to melee.

[Shamaya]

Uhoh, me and Treelo've got a difference of opinion again.

It's cool. I just disagree. There've been many a time where a mobs turned, I've unlocked, ran around, got my sa off and only lost a melee round in that time. If the mob's doing the disco I'll just re-engage again and lose my sa/ta. There's really no general rule, I'm sure thieves know that. Same thing with prepping sa/ta. If hate doesn't balance quickly enough just engage and eat your lost sa/ta (prime example of what makes this job the most frustrating DD to play).

I wouldn't rule out prepping sa/ta altogether 100% though, that's just not a good idea. Very often I'll prep an sa/ta and by the time the mob's arrived / time's come to land ja, the ja's seconds from coming up again. Good example is prepping sa at ixion during multiple tp moves. Speaking of TP moves, the thing w/ khimaira--I wouldn't run and engage khimaira unless he'd just used a tp move. He usually doesn't tp too quickly in succession. Also I would likely not melee him for more than just 1 round, even in subtle blow. And I find thf/sam works real well for that.

Also don't be mistaken, I'm not saying anyone should full time an sa/ta set, and I'm not encouraging anyone to wear strider/skadi while tp'ing or not use dusk while TP'ing. That's perfectly fine. And I too don't often switch to strider boots idle set between mobs in merits. But if the mob is far I will. One thing you mentioned was that if you have a good bard, mob distance shouldn't be a problem. That assumes that you've got a good bard. It also possibly assumes that you don't have a peaked merit party. The rules also don't apply for very peaked merit parties, since you'll be killing the whole supply of mobs before their respawns (though this changes if you're able to pull mobs from other camps or have a good co-pull).

Viva la stubborn

[SolAcension]

I don't see Enkidu's harness listed !~^^

[nefarious.lover]

Shamaya, on 21 August 2009 - 04:17 AM, said:

Uhoh, me and Treelo've got a difference of opinion again.

It's cool. I just disagree. There've been many a time where a mobs turned, I've unlocked, ran around, got my sa off and only lost a melee round in that time. If the mob's doing the disco I'll just re-engage again and lose my sa/ta. There's really no general rule, I'm sure thieves know that. Same thing with prepping sa/ta. If hate doesn't balance quickly enough just engage and eat your lost sa/ta (prime example of what makes this job the most frustrating DD to play).

I wouldn't rule out prepping sa/ta altogether 100% though, that's just not a good idea. Very often I'll prep an sa/ta and by the time the mob's arrived / time's come to land ja, the ja's seconds from coming up again. Good example is prepping sa at ixion during multiple tp moves. Speaking of TP moves, the thing w/ khimaira--I wouldn't run and engage khimaira unless he'd just used a tp move. He usually doesn't tp too quickly in succession. Also I would likely not melee him for more than just 1 round, even in subtle blow. And I find thf/sam works real well for that.

Also don't be mistaken, I'm not saying anyone should full time an sa/ta set, and I'm not encouraging anyone to wear strider/skadi while tp'ing or not use dusk while TP'ing. That's perfectly fine. And I too don't often switch to strider boots idle set between mobs in merits. But if the mob is far I will. One thing you mentioned was that if you have a good bard, mob distance shouldn't be a problem. That assumes that you've got a good bard. It also possibly assumes that you don't have a peaked merit party. The rules also don't apply for very peaked merit parties, since you'll be killing the whole supply of mobs before their respawns (though this changes if you're able to pull mobs from other camps or have a good co-pull).

Viva la stubborn

Spellcast.

Rules.

Striders.

Fin.

(Sorry for the late reply.)

My spellcast puts me in EVA/Striders anytime I disengage, and after all non-engaged ranged attacks, and puts me into TP gear if my mode is set to offensive as soon as I engage.

Same for WAR with hermes.

SolAcension, on 25 October 2009 - 07:11 AM, said:

I don't see Enkidu's harness listed !~^^

Listed for what? It's a horrible piece for THF.