[Icerat]

Please disregard. Text was from a biased website that I cannot verify as having factual info versus opinion. I am looking for a reliable source.

[MrReinhardt]

could you site where you got this?

also

$88,800,000,000. Yes that’s billion.

that's not billions, that's trillion or there was a comma in place of a decimal

[Villainous]

HAY GUIZ I don't think anyone has even really read this bill

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill – YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

Pg 50 Section 152 in HC Bill – HC will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Health Care Card will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer.

Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

Pg 84 Sec 203 HC Bill – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in the Exchange

Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your health care!

Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Government mandates linguistic appropriate services.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for government Health Care Plan

Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members – Your health care WILL be rationed

Pg 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill – Medicaid Eligible Individual will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

Pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue the government on price fixing. No “judicial review” against this government monopoly.

Pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill – Doctors/ #AMA – The government will tell YOU what you can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for health care for part-time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer w/ payroll 400k and above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

Pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between 251k and 400k who do not provide public opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable health care according to government will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay).

Pg 195 Officers & employees of HC Administration (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial and personal records.

Pg 203 Line 14-15 HC – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors, it does not matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same.

Pg 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of doctors’ time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

Pg 265 Sec 1131Government mandates and controls productivity for private health care industries.

Pg 268 Sec 1141 Federal Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.

Pg 272 SEC. 1145. Treatment of certain cancer hospitals – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The government will penalize hospitals for what government deems preventable readmissions. (Incentives for hospital to not treat and release.)

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors that treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission-Government will penalize you.

Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Government is mandating hospitals cannot expand.

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception, BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Government mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Health Care the way they want. Rationing.

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans (Part , HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Government plan.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Government creates more bureaucracy – Tele-health Advisory Committee. Health care by phone/Internet?

Pg 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance [Death] Care Planning Consultion. Think Senior Citizens end of life.

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

Pg 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.

Pg 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The government has a say in how your life ends.

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “advanced care planning consult” will be used frequently as patient’s health deteriorates.

Pg 429 Lines 10-12 ” advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from Government.

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The government will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

Pg 469 – Community Based Home Medical Services=Non-profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?

Pg 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?

Pg 489 Sec 1308 The government will cover Marriage and Family therapy. They will insert government into your marriage.

Pg 494-498 Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.

PG 502 Sec 1181 Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. – Hello Big Brother – Literally.

Pg 503 Lines 13-19 Government will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronic medical records.

Pg 503 lines 21-25 Government may secure data directly from any department or agency of the U.S. who have any of your data.

Pg 504 Lines 6-10 The “Center” will collect data both published and unpublished (that means public and your private info).

PG 506 Lines 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.

PG 518 Lines 21-25 The Commission will have input from Health Care consumer reps – Can you say unions and ACORN?

PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up. More taxes for ALL.

PG 621 Lines 20-25 Government will define what quality means in health care. Since when does government know about quality?

Pg 622 Lines 2-9 To pay for the Quality Standards, government will transfer money from other government Trust Funds. More Taxes.

PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to assess outcomes and functional status of patients.

PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to profile you including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc.

Pg 628 Sec 1443 Government will give “Multi-Stake Holders” Pre-Rule Making input into Selection of “Quality” Measures.

Pg 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those multi-stake holder groups include unions and groups like ACORN deciding health care quality.

Pg 632 Lines 14-25 The Government may implement any “Quality measure” of health care services as they see fit.

PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed “Quality Measures” for Physician Services and Dialysis Services.

Pg 635 to 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision – Government wants to shine sunlight on doctor but not government.

Pg 654-659 Public Reporting on Health Care-Associated Infections – Looks okay.

PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency – Government will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you’ll live.

Pg 676-686 Government will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, including teaching hospitals.

Pg 686-700 Increased Funding to Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse. Do they mean like the government with an $18 million website?

PGs 701-704 Sec 1619 If your part of health care plan isn’t in Government Health Care Exchange but you qualify for Federal aid, no payment.

PG 705-709 SEC. 1128 If Secretary gets complaints (ACORN) on health care provider or supplier, government can do background check.

PG 711 Lines 8-14 The Secretary has broad powers to deny health care providers/ suppliers admittance into Health Care Exchange. Your doctor could be thrown out of business.

Pg 719-720 Sec 1637 ANY Doctor who orders durable medical equipment or home medical services MUST be enrolled in Medicare.

PG 722 Sec 1639 Government MANDATES doctors must have face-to-face with patient to certify patient for Home Health Services.

PG 724 23-25 PG 725 1-5 The same government certifications will apply to Medicaid and CHIP (your kids).

PG 724 Lines 16-22 Government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification for patient to ANY other health care service.

Pg 735 lines 16-25 For law enforcement, proposes the Secretary-HHS will give Attorney General access to ALL data.

PG 740-757 Government sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (That’s your tax dollars people).

Pg 757-762 Federal Government will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to States. (Taxes)

Pg 763 1-8 No DS/EA hospitals will be paid unless they provide services without regard to national origin.

Pg 765 Sec 1711 Government will require Preventative Services including vaccines. (Choice?)

Pg 768 Sec 1713 Government – Nurse Home Visitation Services (Hello union paybacks).

Pg 769 11-14 Nurse Home Visit Services include economic self-sufficiency, employ adv, school-readiness.

Pg 769 3-5 Nurse Home Visit Services – “increasing birth intervals between pregnancies.” Government ABORTIONS anyone?

Pg 770 SEC 1714 Federal Government mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortion and State Sovereignty.

Pg 789-797 Government will set, mandate drug prices, controlling which drugs brought to market. Bye innovation.

Pgs 797-800 SEC. 1744 PAYMENTS for graduate medical education. The government will now control doctors’ educations.

PG 801 Sec 1751 The government will decide which health care conditions will be paid. Can you say RATION!

Pg 810 SEC. 1759. Billing Agents, clearinghouses, etc. req. to register. Government takes over private payment system.

Pg 820-824 Sec 1801 Government will identify individuals ineligible for subsidies. Will access all personal financial information.

Pg 824-829 SEC. 1802. Government sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another tax black hole.

PG 829-833 Government will impose a fee on ALL private health insurance plans including self-insured to pay for Trust Fund!

PG 835 11-13 fees imposed by government for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.

Pg 838-840 Government will design and implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids and families expecting kids.

PG 844-845 This Home Visitation Program includes government coming into your house and telling you how to parent!!!

Pg 859 Government will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000. Yes that’s billion.

Pg 865 The government will MANDATE the establishment of a National Health Service Corps.

PG 865 to 876 The NHS Corps is a program where doctors perform mandatory health care for two years for part loan repayment.

PG 876-892 The government takes over the education of our medical students and doctors.

PG 898 The government will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps to ensure supply of public health prof.

PG 898 The Public Health Workforce Corps shall consist of civilian employees of the U.S. as Secretary deems.

PG 898 The Public Health Workforce Corps shall consist of officers of Regular and Reserve Corps of Service.

PG 900 The Public Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians.

PG 901 The Public Health Workforce Corps WILL include commissioned Regular and Reserve Officers. HC Draft?

PG 910 The government will develop, build, and run Public Health Training Centers.

PG 913-914 Government starts a health care affirmative action program thru guise of diversity scholarships.

PG 915 SEC. 2251. Government MANDDATES Cultural and linguistic competency training for health care professionals.

Pg 932 The Government will establish Preventative and Wellness Trust fund- initial cost of $30,800,000,000 billion.

PG 935 21-22 Government will identify specific goals & objectives for prevention & wellness activities. That means controlling YOU!!

PG 936 Government will develop “Healthy People and National Public Health Performance Standards” Tell me what to eat?

PG 942 Lines 22-25 More government? Offices of Surgeon General -Public Health Svc, Minority Health, Women’s Health

PG 950- 980 BIG GOVERNMENT core pub health infrastructure including workforce capacity, lab systems, health info sys, etc.

PG 993 Government will establish school based health clinics. Your kids won’t have a chance.

PG 994 School Based Health Clinic will be integrated into the school environment. Say government brainwash!

PG 1001 The government will establish a National Medical Device Registry. Will you be tracked?

Including YOU. See, this is exactly what the fuck I'm talking about. Instead of reading the bill yourself, or posting a link to the bill so others can read it and make their own informed decision, all the foaming-at-the-mouth base knows how to do is parrot back what it hears. You come here saying "no one has really looked at this" with no intention of actually doing so yourself, then you post this crap with no references at all. Instead you feel its sufficient to read the blog of some random guy on the internet (here's the link to what you copypasta'd, line for line verbatim, good critical thinking there chief!) take his word for it on no evidence and then encourage others to as well. You're a sheep, I think I've said this before, and sheep are the easiest to govern.

People who don't like to be treated like a goddamn farm animal and have their information regurgitated into their mouths freshly from rush limbaugh can read the ACTUAL bill on a GOVERNMENT site, not some batshit fundie's blog, at the House Energy and Commerce site (pdf) It's arranged by page and line number- so I encourage people to go and match them up and see if this list is even remotely accurate (protip- the last time I saw text interpreted so liberally was in church, and I don't go to church often)

Also fresh today, Palin's long winded Facebook retraction from the "Death Panel" remarks amid criticism from BOTH sides of the aisle, complete with fancy colored graphs to distract you from the notion that she's totally fucking disconnected from reality. Your list contains many of the issues she's now backpedalling furiously on.

My issue isn't so much with the substance of the protests that are going on, but the style. By constantly playing to the lowest common denominator, they just create more sheep like you. Sad, really.

[Icerat]

What's sad is you. I posted something for discussion and as usual you have to turn it into wanna be flame wars. The website I found it on was not the one you linked even though you think you are so fucking brilliant because you have google. I retracted the quote after I read it fully and realized it was very opinionated instead of the facts with comments like I thought at first. I posted it to get discussion going and find out more about it, not because I claimed to know all about it you fucking tool. If you were remotely intelligent you would realize that but no, you have to turn it around as always into sheep and the man. I am surprised you didn't say I am a racist for posting something with Obama in the title. There are plenty of real people on KI that like to discuss real topics........you don't belong here. Just go away.

[Villainous]

The website I found it on was not the one you linked even though you think you are so fucking brilliant because you have google.

Big surprise- the text you posted (and the link I provided) is actually the content of one of the viral emails referenced at http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck. So not only did you:

1. Post something thoroughly retarded without even reading it first
2. Act like a cheerleader to spread the lies, whether intentional or not
3. You posted a fucking a chain letter

Based on #3 alone you should an hero and/or GTFO my internet.

Just go away.

Awwww is someone cranky? Do I need to go get Joe the Plumber to read you a nighty-night?

[Icerat]

Based on #3 alone you should an hero and/or GTFO my internet.

Huh? We speak english here. You criticize Rambus? You hypocrytical failure.

[Carynaira]

Someone just got whooshed.

[1337NancYBoY]

Ice, Vill, here's a website I think you both should visit.

To the purpose of the thread; I find the most insidious and subtle tactic either side uses to propagate it's views on any issue is to simply talk about it incessantly. I don't mean debate or discuss, I mean talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk until one group runs out of fucking time or money or patience and actually lets up a little bit and everyone who is undecided is so fucking sick of hearing about it they simply acquiesce to the side that's still carrying on talking in order to get them to shut the fuck up. Kind of like how a harpy wife might badger her husband into getting the kitchen redone or finally painting the deck some obnoxious color.

You mentioned the lowest common denominator Vill, well, that's how you control them. They lack the intellectual capacity to see past what these fuckheads are saying, and the strength of character to hold onto their views regardless of how much whining those who want something contrary are capable of. Have you ever been hanging out with friends, maybe at a party, and brought up a popular topic of controversy only to be told that everyone was tired of hearing about it? When that happens, the people who are the best at bitching and moaning have won.

When the average person is so disgusted by the prospect of re-re-re-re-re-evaluating their stance and points on a topic to the point they want absolutely nothing to do with it, then the democratic process falls apart. Benjamin Franklin once said 'Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.' While it's an excellent point, I think modern democratic society is two shepherds yelling at each other and their flocks of sheep while the wolves have whatever they want for dinner.

[Jeedio]

Punditry: why fact check when you can just say stuff. (comment on the author of the email)

[Icerat]

Punditry: why fact check when you can just say stuff. (comment on the author of the email)

I agree. I was sent the link from a normally reputable website and after reading some of it, it looked like legitimate copy of the bill. As I read further, after posting it, I saw the opinionated and biased nature of the comments and deleted it. I posted it before reading it in its entirety, yes totally my fault.

[pathwriter]

The internet needs more of this: people who will admit a fault and move on.

As to the health care bill itself...

Let's make some assumptions about who we all are. We are, for the most part, people aged somewhere between their teens and 30. We have a few folks (like you, Icerat) who are in their 30s, but the average age of FFXI players and the posters on this forum is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-24. We're predominately male but not exclusively so. Quite a few of the contributors around here are from the UK, Canada, and a scattered handful of other nations. Median income among people on this board is probably minimum wage.

Does anyone seriously believe that any discussion we might have about this bill will ever matter? We're the lobby of people about whom Congress cares least (because we're poor) and, to make matters worse, we're not an organized group the way that, say, small business owners, outspoken minority groups, and senior citizens are. Of course, we should all be concerned about the direction this bill goes because we're going to be the ones paying for it regardless of whether we'll ever reap any benefit. The joy/misery of having the Boomer generation in charge is that they're plagued by daddy/mommy issues and always trying to match what their parents did but they're also obsessed with speed, so the possibility of creating a Medicare/Medicaid that won't even last their own lifetimes, much less those of their constantly trodden-upon children, is not one to be forgotten. At least the Greatest generation was smart enough to make a system that would let them die in peace, though it won't last much beyond their current existence failure.

It goes against all of my principles, but with how badly my nation has been screwed by my parents' generation, I almost want to take a page from their book, set up a hippie commune, and disappear en masse for a few years until someone remembers that retirees are not the most important demographic in the United States.

[Varizen]

I quote Steven Colbert when I say "How do I go about getting on one of those Death Panels?"

[Fencer of Alexander]

I have found members of the FFXI community particularly eager to "discuss" (aka flame each other) world current issues than other comparable nerd/hobby/MMO/videogame forums. I see less of this in the EVE community and in other forums I frequent.

My current theory is that the frustrating mechanics of FFXI combined with the lack of real PvP to blow off the steam has set the stage for particularly dramatic boards like these . "The goal of every inhabitant of the internet is to discharge his or her e-power."

[Levian]

I have found members of the FFXI community particularly eager to "discuss" (aka flame each other) world current issues than other comparable nerd/hobby/MMO/videogame forums. I see less of this in the EVE community and in other forums I frequent.

My current theory is that the frustrating mechanics of FFXI combined with the lack of real PvP to blow off the steam has set the stage for particularly dramatic boards like these . "The goal of every inhabitant of the internet is to discharge his or her e-power."

STFU & GTFO

[Fencer of Alexander]

STFU & GTFO

Oh, but it is.

I mentioned this on some other thread a few months ago, but I'll gladly repeat it here. Now, first of all, I don't necessarily blame FFXI for being the way it is with all of its ridiculous probability-based game mechanics since it is a game that was designed in a previous era - and some steps were taken to make the game more accessible so in this regard I give good marks to the mighty SE.

Basically, when you get scammed, when some dude lots (wins) when he isn't supposed to, when some guy loots your LS bank and runs, and any other "bad" scenario you can think of - the only recourse you as a player have is to have a nice little war of words in-game.

Sure, you can reason with someone to return an item that doesn't belong to them, like that as ever worked when the original intent was to cheat and steal in the first place. You can inform a GM, but as long as the scam was within the realm of game mechanics they will not be able to help you. You can challenge them to ballista, bremmer, or whatever pseudo-pvp mechanism exists now in FFXI but that will not rectify the original crime even if you kick his ass. So the only thing that is left is to hurl insults in-game and then come to a FFXI board and post about this great in-game injustice that was committed upon you, and thus drama begins.

Soon, players begin to associate boards more like places of confrontation rather than a forum for friendly information exchange.

There is just no in-game system to deal with in-game justice and retribution - which most modern PvP based MMO's posses... which is not necessarily the same thing as ganking a helpless noob. I have crazy ideas, so I will understand if not everyone agrees with me .

[firefeng]

That's a pretty overcomplicated hypothesis. Writing out a multiparagraph essay on the merits of an online idiot consuming their genitals while being beat to death with the severed limbs of their own offspring doesn't soothe my anger quite so much as just plain throwing a few punches at a pillow. With a child in front of it.

Their bloody tears...they are delicious. DELICIOUS.

[Villainous]

Ice, Vill, here's a website I think you both should visit.

hah.. sorry there are just some people who I am diametrically opposed to. Even tho we're typically in opposition, Cruz can present at least a plausible argument that he's clearly thought about for some time, I can respect that, wheras icerat just posts the detritus from the RNC that gets caught in his spam filter. Its not so much what he says, its that he fails to think. It'd be easier for him to just put me on ignore, because until I see him actually do something besides ranting about Mexicans stealing his jobs, I'm the Republican at his town-hall rally.

Does anyone seriously believe that any discussion we might have about this bill will ever matter?

Well, maybe not this individual board in particular. Except what happens nowadays when there's news, is it gets discussed on MANY different forums. Two things that struck me about the Gates incident:

1. Many of my friends, who I previously thought to have no interest in politics or discussing anything other than next bliz- suddenly had vociferous opinions on the matter. I was like.. where did y'all even hear about this shit? "Facebook". There's a group for Crowley and a group for Gates, it was fun to see who joined up where, espcially since this is a pretty tight group of folks that don't disagree on much.

2. My opinion, even among a bunch of other petty criminals/lazy potheads, turned out to be in the VERY SMALL minority! Made sense when I thought about it, the neighborhood I live in, MANY people are relatives of cops. The brew summit was widely panned as a sham by all sides tho.

We have all this retarded new media, viral emails, twitter, social networking, forums, etc.. as stupid as it sounds, this IS now part of the court of public opinion. It seems silly when you look at an individual site, but when you take into account that something like 75% of US households have some form of internet and 50% have broadband, when you add all the sites together its ALOT of motherfuckers chatting it up. Nowadays things like Huffpost, despite being just overblown ragingly biased blog sites- are responsible for shaping a significant portion of public opinion (at least among those who choose to consume "news" of this variety- and that is no small number)

[Icerat]

We have all this retarded new media, viral emails, twitter, social networking, forums, etc..

Exactly, like check out this like doctor who like treats preventative care. LOLDemocrats. You all who voted for Obama would have been better off voting for Billy Mays.