[pathwriter]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090814/ap_en_...eople_bob_dylan

Seriously, what the fuck is going wrong with the police these days? Now a 68-year-old white guy (who should be recognized by name if not by looks) is picked up in a low-income neighborhood and they demand his ID. Oh, yes, he complied, but should he have? Now an old man walking around can be harassed by officers simply because he left his wallet back on the tour bus?

What worries me most is that the people who say that this is legitimate and appropriate policing are also the ones to scream loudest about the totalitarian nanny state evolving in the UK and, to a lesser degree, France. Maybe we just need to start pumping mood stabilizers into the water supply and hope for the best, 'cause it can't accomplish much worse than we've been doing lately.

[Aleera]

Who?

[rambus]

someone reported something to officers so they looked into it.

lets never suspect anyone so we can let them get away with crimes.
lets have a law that stats you need to know every famous person in the world

lets put cops in bad light because one did not let some famous guy see a dying mother cuz he wanted to be a jerk and act above the law because he is famous.

[Vigilous]

lets have a law that stats you need to know every famous person in the world

/HEADDESK

[monstrouswombat]

And right before the 40th anniversary of woodstock. (this weekend)

Oh the times they are a changin.

[Shippou]

I don't see how they did anything wrong. I wouldn't know what Bob Dylan looks like these days either. How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't just some bum looking to rob houses? The officers didn't take him to jail, they took him back to the hotel and the staff vouched for him.

If this was Britney Spears or Oprah, then yes, you might have a point, but Bob Dylan isn't some huge star anymore like he used to be.

[rambus]

I don't see how they did anything wrong. I wouldn't know what Bob Dylan looks like these days either. How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't just some bum looking to rob houses? The officers didn't take him to jail, they took him back to the hotel and the staff vouched for him.

If this was Britney Spears or Oprah, then yes, you might have a point, but Bob Dylan isn't some huge star anymore like he used to be.

thats why i said what i said, how do we put an expectation on to know who x or y is?

[pathwriter]

How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't just some bum looking to rob houses? The officers didn't take him to jail, they took him back to the hotel and the staff vouched for him.

So you're saying that if you were walking down the street and you left your wallet at home, you wouldn't be immediately suspicious or feel put upon if some donut-jockey rolled up on you and demanded ID? It's not a question of whether the man really was Bob Dylan, it's a question of reasonable suspicion. You see a 68-year-old guy who weighs 150 lbs. dripping wet, the most I expect a police officer to do is say hello and ask if he is lost (since it was primarily a minority neighborhood).

I'm a white dude who lives in a heavily minority-populated neighborhood and if a cop asks to see my ID, he's going to get the response that any of my neighbors would give, "Go fuck yourself." Maybe I'd be nicer about it, but what is difficult to understand about preserving your right to privacy and unobtrusive pursuit of happiness?

Maybe there's some detail missing. Maybe Dylan was peaking in people's windows or stomping all over their dahlias. I'm not betting on it, though.

[Shippou]

So you're saying that if you were walking down the street and you left your wallet at home, you wouldn't be immediately suspicious or feel put upon if some donut-jockey rolled up on you and demanded ID? It's not a question of whether the man really was Bob Dylan, it's a question of reasonable suspicion. You see a 68-year-old guy who weighs 150 lbs. dripping wet, the most I expect a police officer to do is say hello and ask if he is lost (since it was primarily a minority neighborhood).

I'm a white dude who lives in a heavily minority-populated neighborhood and if a cop asks to see my ID, he's going to get the response that any of my neighbors would give, "Go fuck yourself." Maybe I'd be nicer about it, but what is difficult to understand about preserving your right to privacy and unobtrusive pursuit of happiness?

Maybe there's some detail missing. Maybe Dylan was peaking in people's windows or stomping all over their dahlias. I'm not betting on it, though.

Except...

when a resident called to report someone wandering around the neighborhood.

means that the officer did have reasonable suspicion in the first place. He wasn't just patrolling and demanded to see an ID. Maybe it's because you live in a heavily minority-populated area, but in my neighborhood, I'd be more than happy to show my ID to a cop if he asked who I was when I go running around the neighborhood in the evening. If people are going to be out that late at night, which is suspicious in the first place, then they should take an ID with them. Bob Dylan apparently wasn't too upset about the thing, why is this turning into, "Let's bash the cop for doing his job and trying to prevent a possible crime!"

If some stranger, who I don't recognize, is outside on my street while the sun is setting (since it never happens), I'd probably call the cops to come check it out too. There have been a few break-ins in my neighborhood over the past 3 months, so I'd rather be safe than sorry. If the dude doesn't have his ID, and doesn't even live in my neighborhood, then that's his own fault.

[1337NancYBoY]

While I can usually agree with a lot of what you say Patrick, you're kinda pushing it on this one. This is another case of "Obama's plane lands safely.' I mean, nothing happened here. Outside of Bob Dylan getting a free ride back to his hotel, that is. He didn't care and the officers thanked him - how is that even worth talking about?

[Villainous]

If some stranger, who I don't recognize, is outside on my street while the sun is setting (since it never happens), I'd probably call the cops to come check it out too. There have been a few break-ins in my neighborhood over the past 3 months, so I'd rather be safe than sorry. If the dude doesn't have his ID, and doesn't even live in my neighborhood, then that's his own fault.

That's because you're one of these tools that doesn't realize 911 is for EMERGENCIES. If you're too stupid to assess whether a crime is actually taking place (sounds like the case), DO NOT PICK UP THE PHONE. Do you hear screaming? Is there a weapon visible? Is an altercation ocurring? USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN BEFORE YOU DIAL.

Look I'll talk shit about cops all day but I'll give them one thing: motherfuckers are BUSY. When people complain about 911 taking too long, its not because cops are sitting around the donut shop, its because there's two of them busy driving Bob Dylan home. Here's a thought, you say you call 911 to be "better safe than sorry"- what about the ACTUAL crimes that are occurring during the hour or so you've taken this cop off the street? How do you know that while the officer is comforting you from the sight of some big scary man, a pregnant woman isn't being shot in the stomach somewhere? People like you who give the cops misleading information and even false PC sometimes, you are WORSE than the cops, because then they really ARE just doing their jobs, based on what some neurotic idiot told them.

You see someone you don't recognize and you call the cops? What are you, the fucking neighborhood chamber of commerce, how the hell do you know who lives where? How about, you know, walking over and INTRODUCING YOURSELF. Go and say "Hi, I just moved into the neighborhood, did you too?" You wanna ACT like you OWN the neighborhood.. but you're too shook to do anything about it besides hide behind your curtains with 911 on speedial? A few break-ins over the past few months? LOLOLOL How old are you anyway, 80? People like you are the reason I stopped talking to my neighbors. I've never lived anywhere there hasn't been alot of breakins EVERY month, its called BUYING A FUCKING DEADBOLT.

While I can usually agree with a lot of what you say Patrick, you're kinda pushing it on this one. This is another case of "Obama's plane lands safely.' I mean, nothing happened here. Outside of Bob Dylan getting a free ride back to his hotel, that is. He didn't care and the officers thanked him - how is that even worth talking about?

It's absolutely worth talking about, and I'm actually glad this happened to Dylan, because now we have some contrast. A white and a black dude, one was an asshole, one took it easy. We have two different outcomes, one got arrested, one got driven home. One made a fuss and one did not- that was part of Gates' point, he wasn't just being an asshole for NO reason, he wanted to demonstrate what happens to ordinary people everyday but doesn't get reported because they.. don't personally know the POTUS. What thread unifies both stories? Overzealous police overstepping their authority. In both cases, a private citizen was prevented from engaging in his legal, personal business- Bob Dylan was only wandering, but what if he had a show to perform in the next 10 minutes? He DID have a show later that day- what if he was not able to provide ID, would he then have to go downtown for several hours and risk losing thousands of dollars and fans just because fucking shippou thinks he looks "out of place in this neighborhood"? Fuck that weak shit.

edit: and WOW, I was kinda skimming so I totally missed this:

If people are going to be out that late at night, which is suspicious in the first place, then they should take an ID with them.

shippou and Neil Patrick Harris- making fascism fabulous!

[Kaparu]

Shippou has seen me naked.












Plug that into your fancy equations.

[Villainous]

Shippou has seen me naked.












Plug that into your fancy equations.

Already have, in fact that was sortof the point I was getting at.

I've seen shippou's pics- in SOME neighborhoods, SOME people might think he looks pretty damn out of place too. Like if I saw him walking around the projects- I might immediately conclude he's there to buy drugs, probably E. A police officer might not disagree, because hey, we simply don't have alot of skinny white dudes with spikey hair and impeccable hygiene walking around. Not to say there aren't plenty of white people in the ghetto, but they all look ghetto too- y'all do not look ghetto. So before calling 911 on someone you don't know for no reason, think about how it might feel if it happened to YOU, having cops turned on you just because of what you look like, nah mean? Honestly I'm shocked to even hear a gay person espouse that opinion (hence the Doogie Hauser montage) we must be making some real progress as a country if y'all now feel comfortable persecuting others based on how THEY look, delicious irony!

[treelo]

Oh, yes, he complied, but should he have?

Yes.

totalitarian nanny state evolving in the UK

What?

[pathwriter]

Treelo, we've already established that you bend over at the slightest hint of authority. Your obsession with the Third Reich finally makes sense.

Just to provide a third layer of contrast to how things played out for Robert Gates and Bob Dylan, here's the joy I got to suffer a couple days ago. It was about midnight and I heard a furious knocking on my front door and window. While deciding to have a heart attack then or save it for after, I was plotting how to destroy the person who thought a fucking window is for beating on. As I approached my front door, thinking it was my upstairs neighbors, I heard "Columbus police!"

Any one of you who claims that your heart rate would not jump another dozen beats-per-minute at that shout is a liar. Police know this and will use it if they're corrupt enough.

Anyhow, I opened the door and, as I presently lack a porch light, invited the officer to step inside and into the light. Yes, I willingly violated my own right to keep him out of my house but, get this, he knew to stay outside my door until I gestured him in. Apparently he was in the neighborhood looking for someone and it was probably pretty urgent from how he presented himself. I didn't recognize the person. After saying as much and confirming that the names he rattled off were meaningless to me (in part because I just moved to this place), he and his uniformed partner prepared to leave. I straight-facedly said that they'd just scared the hell out of me and would appreciate knowing what's going on. Apparently the person they were looking for is a thief, which is probably about 1/3 of the full story, but they assured me that I was in no danger.

At no point did the officer ask for me to identify myself. He didn't ask my name, nor did he demand to see ID. Know why? Because he had a fucking picture of the person he was looking for and the only thing I had in common with the suspect is that we're both white. The officer didn't invite himself into my property. And he recognized that he had a certain obligation to answer my questions, especially because I'd cooperated with his brief investigation. I could have been lying my face off and hiding this person in the back room or my basement, but I wasn't, and he couldn't have pressed the issue. This was a good cop, except the whole "pounding on the window" thing.

It's not surprising, either, because I live in an integrated but low-income neighborhood and he was plain-clothes (badge around his neck, very visible) and in his 30s. The kids that harassed Dylan were 24, that is, a part of the present generational problem of entitlement and mindless compliance. I'm more Gen-X than Millennial, I suppose, because all those things the Millennials are praised for are things I find detestable. They're praised for having a certain in-built respect for authority, for wanting to work as teams instead of individually, and generally being offended by the notion of counter-culture. After the culture wars of the 90s (thanks again, Boomers), I guess it makes sense, but I've always found it irritating that humans have a tendency to bend at the knees. The cop who was harassing Gates, on the other hand, worked in an affluent (and predominately white) neighborhood, so his attitude was largely driven by wanting to keep the locals happy and inflate his own sense of importance along the way. The cop bothering me? Gen-X and works in the ghetto, he actually knows the law and respects his fellow citizens.

Trust me, I was acting plenty suspicious because I was worried by the sudden arrival of police on my doorstep (it is impossible not to break the law on a daily basis, there are too many obscure and insensible laws), but suspicious behavior like being an old white guy in a minority neighborhood or an old black guy having trouble with a door is not the same thing as probable cause. Accepting this kind of treatment by the police would have lawyers eating their ties because you're basically giving up your rights for no beneficial reason (whereas, for instance, my letting the cop in my door let me see his paperwork up close and in the light).

[Phlow]

You're fucking kidding right?

A 68-year old man wandering around a low-income (and therefore high-crime) neighborhood responds to "Who are you" and "What are you doing here" with "Bob Dylan" and "I'm on tour"?

If these officers were familiar with the name and not the face, what part of that doesn't scream "dementia" to you, Path? Your dad's a doctor, c'mon now. Couldn't there be a slightest bit of "Oh shit, this old dude is gonna get jumped in an alleyway if we don't get his crazy ass outta here."

They didn't take him in because they wanted to arrest him. They took him in because they feared for his safety and probably wanted to take the old guy back home.

[pathwriter]

So making prejudgments based on people's age is now appropriate? As a matter of fact, my grandfather has severe Alzheimer's, so I'm devastatingly familiar with how people act when their mind starts to go. Without myself knowing and having met Bob Dylan, I cannot comment as to whether or not he exhibits any of the listlessness that might signal the assessments you're talking about. He certainly could be a little bit out of his mind, it wouldn't be surprising given his generation, but I'd have to see some evidence to that effect. Besides, if he really was demented or suffering Alzheimer's disease, what's the guarantee that he doesn't live in that neighborhood? Too many wrong assumptions on the part of the police and it is frightening that people want to defend a couple of kids who are, let's be clear, younger than a fair few of us here. Training or no training, how far do you honestly trust a 24-year-old to make a reasoned and informed decision about the mental health of any human being, himself included?

[MrReinhardt]

so he wasn't beaten or cuffed? I don't see the big deal. so what if 2 officers didn't know who he was. I wouldn't have recognized him as Bob Dylan if I saw him on the street. they asked for ID and he didnt have it. so he couldnt prove he was Bob Dylan and needed someone to confirm his identity. This is really a big deal over nothing. besides that the person who reported him as "supicious" could have been one of those paranoid types who rights incidents in a little notebook to keep track of.

[pathwriter]

Ok, so why should he have to prove his identity when walking around in public? Maybe we should just get identification tattoos and forgo the need for an ID card altogether. We can even spruce up the tattoo a bit with a nice Star of David.

[Icerat]

I don't see how they did anything wrong. I wouldn't know what Bob Dylan looks like these days either. How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't just some bum looking to rob houses? The officers didn't take him to jail, they took him back to the hotel and the staff vouched for him.

If this was Britney Spears or Oprah, then yes, you might have a point, but Bob Dylan isn't some huge star anymore like he used to be.

QFT

Except...



means that the officer did have reasonable suspicion in the first place. He wasn't just patrolling and demanded to see an ID. Maybe it's because you live in a heavily minority-populated area, but in my neighborhood, I'd be more than happy to show my ID to a cop if he asked who I was when I go running around the neighborhood in the evening. If people are going to be out that late at night, which is suspicious in the first place, then they should take an ID with them. Bob Dylan apparently wasn't too upset about the thing, why is this turning into, "Let's bash the cop for doing his job and trying to prevent a possible crime!"

If some stranger, who I don't recognize, is outside on my street while the sun is setting (since it never happens), I'd probably call the cops to come check it out too. There have been a few break-ins in my neighborhood over the past 3 months, so I'd rather be safe than sorry. If the dude doesn't have his ID, and doesn't even live in my neighborhood, then that's his own fault.

QFT

While I can usually agree with a lot of what you say Patrick, you're kinda pushing it on this one. This is another case of "Obama's plane lands safely.' I mean, nothing happened here. Outside of Bob Dylan getting a free ride back to his hotel, that is. He didn't care and the officers thanked him - how is that even worth talking about?

QFT

That's because you're one of these tools that doesn't realize 911 is for EMERGENCIES. If you're too stupid to assess whether a crime is actually taking place (sounds like the case), DO NOT PICK UP THE PHONE. Do you hear screaming? Is there a weapon visible? Is an altercation ocurring? USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN BEFORE YOU DIAL.

Look I'll talk shit about cops all day but I'll give them one thing: motherfuckers are BUSY. When people complain about 911 taking too long, its not because cops are sitting around the donut shop, its because there's two of them busy driving Bob Dylan home. Here's a thought, you say you call 911 to be "better safe than sorry"- what about the ACTUAL crimes that are occurring during the hour or so you've taken this cop off the street? How do you know that while the officer is comforting you from the sight of some big scary man, a pregnant woman isn't being shot in the stomach somewhere? People like you who give the cops misleading information and even false PC sometimes, you are WORSE than the cops, because then they really ARE just doing their jobs, based on what some neurotic idiot told them.

You see someone you don't recognize and you call the cops? What are you, the fucking neighborhood chamber of commerce, how the hell do you know who lives where? How about, you know, walking over and INTRODUCING YOURSELF. Go and say "Hi, I just moved into the neighborhood, did you too?" You wanna ACT like you OWN the neighborhood.. but you're too shook to do anything about it besides hide behind your curtains with 911 on speedial? A few break-ins over the past few months? LOLOLOL How old are you anyway, 80? People like you are the reason I stopped talking to my neighbors. I've never lived anywhere there hasn't been alot of breakins EVERY month, its called BUYING A FUCKING DEADBOLT.


It's absolutely worth talking about, and I'm actually glad this happened to Dylan, because now we have some contrast. A white and a black dude, one was an asshole, one took it easy. We have two different outcomes, one got arrested, one got driven home. One made a fuss and one did not- that was part of Gates' point, he wasn't just being an asshole for NO reason, he wanted to demonstrate what happens to ordinary people everyday but doesn't get reported because they.. don't personally know the POTUS. What thread unifies both stories? Overzealous police overstepping their authority. In both cases, a private citizen was prevented from engaging in his legal, personal business- Bob Dylan was only wandering, but what if he had a show to perform in the next 10 minutes? He DID have a show later that day- what if he was not able to provide ID, would he then have to go downtown for several hours and risk losing thousands of dollars and fans just because fucking shippou thinks he looks "out of place in this neighborhood"? Fuck that weak shit.

edit: and WOW, I was kinda skimming so I totally missed this:

shippou and Neil Patrick Harris- making fascism fabulous!

And you...........you're just a fucking idiot. Have you ever called the police? Have you ever needed the police or does your irrational fear of them keep your fingers from dialing the number. What if someone called the regular police number and not 911 to report the same incident? The operator at 911 can determine if it is an emergency and connect you to the local non-emergency number you know? If you live in ANY neighborhood and see ANY person that looks suspicious late at night then you should be wary of them and possibly contact authorities to at least let them know what you see. This is not a racism issue, not a class warfare issue, it is not an issue at all. Someone called the police as they have a right to do to report something suspicious. The police showed up and did their job.