[pathwriter]

You're saying there is a particular merit in a society based on freedom to be forever required to identify oneself on demand regardless of circumstance? I'll admit that on the list of onerous infringements of freedom, that's probably about halfway down page three, but the reference is a valid one rather than mere Godwin violation. Honestly, I cannot think of any other society that visibly marked people to the extent that the Third Reich did, so it's just the most prominent and extreme available example.

[treelo]

And please stop with the Godwining. The Nazi party strongly advocated high literacy and low unemployment. Are we against ideas based on their merits or just based on the the fact that they can also be associated with Nazism?

Not to mention a vast list of inventions and discoveries longer than the Great Wall of China. Oops, maybe I am obsessed.

You're saying there is a particular merit in a society based on freedom to be forever required to identify oneself on demand regardless of circumstance?

Exactly what harm can come from identifying yourself to the police? Unless you're a criminal. In which case, they probably know who you are already. Your whole nazi link is weak at best, you won't be carted off to a ghetto or concentration camp after showing some ID, and carrying ID is in no way similar to forcing you to identify yourself based on ethnicity/religious beliefs. You said you carry a wallet around with you, how many items in there can identify you? Would you get rid of those too? I doubt it.

[pathwriter]

It's the difference between opportunity and obligation. Anyone who is skilled or lucky enough can acquire my Social Security Number, but I'm in no way obliged to hand it out to passersby on the street. I don't object to the idea that if a police officer asks my name, I respond with my name. I do that with normal people. Asking to see a government-issued identification card (or I suppose an ID from some other institution like a corporation or university) crosses a line.

The foundation of our justice system, one of the core tenets that was insisted upon while creating this nation, is the presumption of innocence. Demanding an ID operates on the principle that I cannot be taken at my word, which is not how our justice system operates. As I said, it's nowhere near the top of the list of onerous things one might have to do in a given day nor is it the worst infringement upon a person's rights that can be imagined, but taking away the presumption of innocence (that is, the trust that I will identify myself accurately) is not something to be taken likely and, moreover, serves no useful purpose.

If I say that I'm Batman or the First Emperor of the United States, that qualifies as behavior that bears closer scrutiny. If I say that I'm Johnny Whalen or Andrew McChandless, what reason is there to doubt me except to assume that I am guilty of something? If a cop actually suspects me of committing a crime, he doesn't need to know my name before he slaps the cuffs on. So explain to me why I should have to whip out my driver's license or be escorted to some place where someone can verify my identity if I am not being charged with a crime? I brought up that incident of a cop knocking on my door deliberately. He didn't ask for my ID, he didn't even ask my name. Why? Because he had a picture of the person he was looking for and could have had my picture within the hour had he needed to. Here in 2009, names are simply not that important compared to the host of other data available almost instantaneously. Perhaps that's why you and others are so quick to dismiss the trampling of basic rights.

[treelo]

If I say that I'm Batman or the First Emperor of the United States, that qualifies as behavior that bears closer scrutiny. If I say that I'm Johnny Whalen or Andrew McChandless, what reason is there to doubt me except to assume that I am guilty of something? If a cop actually suspects me of committing a crime, he doesn't need to know my name before he slaps the cuffs on. So explain to me why I should have to whip out my driver's license or be escorted to some place where someone can verify my identity if I am not being charged with a crime?

I'm not sure how how things work over there, but I know that providing false details to a police officer here is a criminal offence. If I were to tell a cop that I was Emperor Hirohito from the planet Mars, I'd get a swift trip down to the station and most likely be charged for it, more likely is a night in the cells to sober up though.

You seem to be misunderstanding me though. I'm in no way suggesting you should be forced by law to carry identification or be forced to provide documentation to verify this, merely that I fail to see why you would refuse. You're innocent, it really doesn't matter if you flash some ID to back up your assertions that you are in fact who you say you are. The few times I've been stopped by the police, they ask for your name and address, then radio in the details to confirm if this is true or not. No ID was required, it took a couple of minutes out of my already leisurely day, no harm came from it.

Any information they might require can be gained from just your name, but if they asked to see my ID, I'd be happy to oblige. I know I don't have to, but it's not a big deal, if failure to do so resulted in an immediate jail sentence then I could see why you might have an issue with it. It doesn't though. Being asked to reach into your pocket is hardly a violation of your rights, it's a simple request. Try looking at it from the cop's point of view rather than your own.

[Villainous]

Exactly what harm can come from identifying yourself to the police? Unless you're a criminal. In which case, they probably know who you are already. Your whole nazi link is weak at best, you won't be carted off to a ghetto or concentration camp after showing some ID, and carrying ID is in no way similar to forcing you to identify yourself based on ethnicity/religious beliefs.

Orly? hi2u COINTELPRO
In order to eliminate black militant leaders whom they considered dangerous, the FBI conspired with local police departments to target specific individuals, accuse them of crimes they did not commit, suppress exculpatory evidence and falsely incarcerate them.
I kinda laughed at the "Obama thoughtpolice" thread at first, because THAT list won't even get you killed.

Oh but that was way back in the 60's you say? surely nothing like that happens now! Think again:
Article on the Denver police spying on American Indian activists, cases going back 30 years to current
In Denver, the secret police spy files became public through attorney discovery in a local court case. The spy files did not become public because of the integrity of the Denver Police Intelligence Division. Those secret police spy files included cases that went back 30 years. Of course all of the American Indian activists names were there, the usual suspects working for peace and justice. But there were surprises in the list of 3,200 individuals and 208 organizations.

Denver police spied on an 80-year-old grandmother because she had a "Leonard Peltier" bumper sticker on her car.

Denver police also spied on American Indian attorneys at the Native American Rights Fund and a senator who worked for Native American rights. South Dakota Sen. James Abourezk, who once headed the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, was spied on. Abourezk obtained a copy of his spy file and said he still didn't have a clue why he was targeted. Abourezk said he hadn't been in Denver in 15 years. The Abourezk spy file just said the Denver police were watching him.

Anyone helping Navajos at Big Mountain or Zapatistas in Chiapas in Denver was under Denver police surveillance.

The Quakers, it turned out, were among the most spied on in the US, revealing the insanity of US police probes of the peace-seeking.

In the end, after a lawsuit was filed against the Denver Police Department by American Indians, the ACLU and others, the spied-upon could go and retrieve their spy files in Denver. However, this required updating Denver police records with current IDs and personal information, so many passed.

Your identity, and by extension your anonymity, is incredibly valuable. So much so, there are multimillion dollar industries devoted specifically to mining this data from the population. Just because you can't understand the intrinsic value in not showing your hand, don't get all preachy and tell others they have to do the same.

[Icerat]

Seriously, are you saying that if you got a letter in the mail saying you'd won something and noting an address in a good neighborhood (I cannot imagine the police do these kinds of busts dead center of a bad neighborhood), that you wouldn't at least drive over there and check it out? I hate crime as much as anyone else, but let's be honest about human nature here. We may tell ourselves there's no such thing as a free lunch, but we'll still try to get one.

No, I would not drive over and check it out, are you serious??? You would drive to a random location because someone said you won something that you had not signed up for and knew nothing about? Poor you.

Orly? hi2u COINTELPRO
In order to eliminate black militant leaders whom they considered dangerous, the FBI conspired with local police departments to target specific individuals, accuse them of crimes they did not commit, suppress exculpatory evidence and falsely incarcerate them.
I kinda laughed at the "Obama thoughtpolice" thread at first, because THAT list won't even get you killed.

Oh but that was way back in the 60's you say? surely nothing like that happens now! Think again:
Article on the Denver police spying on American Indian activists, cases going back 30 years to current
In Denver, the secret police spy files became public through attorney discovery in a local court case. The spy files did not become public because of the integrity of the Denver Police Intelligence Division. Those secret police spy files included cases that went back 30 years. Of course all of the American Indian activists names were there, the usual suspects working for peace and justice. But there were surprises in the list of 3,200 individuals and 208 organizations.

Denver police spied on an 80-year-old grandmother because she had a "Leonard Peltier" bumper sticker on her car.

Denver police also spied on American Indian attorneys at the Native American Rights Fund and a senator who worked for Native American rights. South Dakota Sen. James Abourezk, who once headed the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, was spied on. Abourezk obtained a copy of his spy file and said he still didn't have a clue why he was targeted. Abourezk said he hadn't been in Denver in 15 years. The Abourezk spy file just said the Denver police were watching him.

Anyone helping Navajos at Big Mountain or Zapatistas in Chiapas in Denver was under Denver police surveillance.

The Quakers, it turned out, were among the most spied on in the US, revealing the insanity of US police probes of the peace-seeking.

In the end, after a lawsuit was filed against the Denver Police Department by American Indians, the ACLU and others, the spied-upon could go and retrieve their spy files in Denver. However, this required updating Denver police records with current IDs and personal information, so many passed.

Your identity, and by extension your anonymity, is incredibly valuable. So much so, there are multimillion dollar industries devoted specifically to mining this data from the population. Just because you can't understand the intrinsic value in not showing your hand, don't get all preachy and tell others they have to do the same.

Hmmmm, one of the most liberal cities in the country, where the DNC is held, where they want to legalize drugs? I see how you can try to disassociate that with anything coming from the BO administration.

[Cruzandercerberus]

If the Federal Government is keeping tabs on Militia movements and gangs like the Hell's Angels, it would make sense that they keep an eye on the Zapatistas. The Zaps, being a foreign radical marxist revolutionary movement being given free reign to peacefully operate in the United States should be subject to an increased level scrutiny than the sunday night bingo game at the Elks lodge down the street. However the usual 5 W's as to the utility, scope, and distribution of the information should be applied.


Spying on the Quakers is just L O L.

[pathwriter]

No, I would not drive over and check it out, are you serious??? You would drive to a random location because someone said you won something that you had not signed up for and knew nothing about? Poor you.

Your position in this argument becomes a great deal more clear with these sentences. You are shockingly paranoid and it seems that you're not alone in this. I suppose after over a decade in the service, though, that makes a certain amount of sense, since you are made aware of being watched at any possible moment of your day. There's a such thing as healthy paranoia, but when it overwhelms human curiosity, that's somewhat worrying.

I'm certainly not suggesting that one trust everyone on the planet, but there does seem to be a very real undercurrent of fear when dealing with the police. I won't lie; I share it, but I share it because I've seen what cops can do when they want to bend the law to suit their egos. It seems that some people are unwilling to believe that while operating with even greater fear of blue uniforms and gold shields.

[Cruzandercerberus]

So this one time, after placing some stuff on craigslist I got an E-mail from a Nigerian Prince in exile, who needed some money to facilitate his transfer back into power, in which he would repay me in ownership shares of the Nigerian Timber and Internet Cafe industries.

Unfortunately my life savings was not enough, he was kidnapped by Dutch colonists and is now being held for ransom in Luxembourg.

However they are willing to negotiate, so I'm getting a second job.

[Icerat]

Your position in this argument becomes a great deal more clear with these sentences. You are shockingly paranoid and it seems that you're not alone in this. I suppose after over a decade in the service, though, that makes a certain amount of sense, since you are made aware of being watched at any possible moment of your day. There's a such thing as healthy paranoia, but when it overwhelms human curiosity, that's somewhat worrying.

I'm certainly not suggesting that one trust everyone on the planet, but there does seem to be a very real undercurrent of fear when dealing with the police. I won't lie; I share it, but I share it because I've seen what cops can do when they want to bend the law to suit their egos. It seems that some people are unwilling to believe that while operating with even greater fear of blue uniforms and gold shields.

Wrong........I am not paranoid, nor do I fear the police or authority. I just don't randomly show up someplace because I get something in the mail that says I won a prize. It is the equivalent of mailing a check to Nigeria because I won some money. It's either a scam, or a trap if it is not something that I signed up for. Companies do not randomly give away stuff to people who never requested it or entered any drawing for it, at least in the real world.

[treelo]

Orly? hi2u COINTELPRO
In order to eliminate black militant leaders whom they considered dangerous, the FBI conspired with local police departments to target specific individuals, accuse them of crimes they did not commit, suppress exculpatory evidence and falsely incarcerate them.
I kinda laughed at the "Obama thoughtpolice" thread at first, because THAT list won't even get you killed.

Completely unrelated to the issue at hand. You act surprised that a government would keep tabs on potentially dangerous individuals. I don't see you screaming down the roof that such activites are probably being carried out around the world by various sections of the US government, don't give a shit about their rights do you? Or have you not found a website with sufficiently emotive language to convince you that this is wrong too?

Oh that's right, they were black, I see why you mentioned it now.

In the end, after a lawsuit was filed against the Denver Police Department by American Indians, the ACLU and others, the spied-upon could go and retrieve their spy files in Denver. However, this required updating Denver police records with current IDs and personal information, so many passed.

You seem to be missing the point. They already knew who these people were, the fact that many declined to see their own files because they didn't want to update their information just reeks of stupidity on their own part. They already know who you are. Attempting to protect your privacy by forfeiting your chance to see "confidential" files is just a wasted opportunity. In the dreaded totalitarian nanny state of the UK, I can easily request to see any information gathered about me by MI5/6, I think you'll find the same is true in America. Doesn't take a lawsuit, just a phone call or a letter will suffice.

Your identity, and by extension your anonymity, is incredibly valuable. So much so, there are multimillion dollar industries devoted specifically to mining this data from the population. Just because you can't understand the intrinsic value in not showing your hand, don't get all preachy and tell others they have to do the same.

Again, refusal to ID yourself to an officer of the law will do little to stop this, such information is available from a variety of sources where you are required to provide personal information. I don't understand? Not quite, I just realise that if anyone cared enough, they could find out anyway, so flashing my ID to a police officer is no big deal to me.

I'd love to know where you get the idea I'm being preachy, or that I'm telling you all you must identify yourself when asked. If you weren't so indignant about my views because they differ from your own fanatical mistrust of your government, maybe you'd have listened to what I was saying rather than assuming I'm telling you that you're wrong.

No, I would not drive over and check it out, are you serious??? You would drive to a random location because someone said you won something that you had not signed up for and knew nothing about? Poor you.

Exactly the point I was making, I receive infrequent letters telling me I've been entered into X, Y or Z and I've won something, or might have won something. The only trip I'd make is to the bin.

[Boldfinger]

this entire posting has turned into ego stroking masturbation session with 1000 word essays, all saying nothing

Out of interest, do you think the blame for this lies at the feet of Bob Dylan himself, or the 3 days of pent-up KI-less nerd rage?

[Cruzandercerberus]

More concise nerd rage, a real possibility...


Bob Dylan can't sing or play the fucking guitar. Despite recieving continuing awards from the boomer hippie dipshits that decide who should get music awards his best work is far, far behind him as a songwriter and I wouldn't know him If I ran into him with my cart at the supermarket. If he were to shuffle off the mortal coil tomorrow people would still be talking about Michael Jackson.

Fuck him, I hope the police remembered to check his 'fro for illicit drugs.

[firefeng]

Out of interest, do you think the blame for this lies at the feet of Bob Dylan himself, or the 3 days of pent-up KI-less nerd rage?

People need to find healthier ways of tumescing their epeen. I just trolled around Allakhazam slightly more often, and exercised slightly more.

Ironically, half the things I said on Alla were more vitriolic than most of my posts in Flame Wars. My nerdrage must have been too constricted for too long.

[Shippou]

Already have, in fact that was sortof the point I was getting at.

I've seen shippou's pics- in SOME neighborhoods, SOME people might think he looks pretty damn out of place too. Like if I saw him walking around the projects- I might immediately conclude he's there to buy drugs, probably E. A police officer might not disagree, because hey, we simply don't have alot of skinny white dudes with spikey hair and impeccable hygiene walking around. Not to say there aren't plenty of white people in the ghetto, but they all look ghetto too- y'all do not look ghetto. So before calling 911 on someone you don't know for no reason, think about how it might feel if it happened to YOU, having cops turned on you just because of what you look like, nah mean? Honestly I'm shocked to even hear a gay person espouse that opinion (hence the Doogie Hauser montage) we must be making some real progress as a country if y'all now feel comfortable persecuting others based on how THEY look, delicious irony!

And that's the thing, where I live, there is a place called Prichard. It is mainly blacks, and I'm not saying 60%-40%, I'm saying 98%-2%. Cops do stop white people there after dark. I would have no problem showing my ID and explaining myself if stopped by a cop. Most white people there after dark are buying drugs, it's a fact. Racial profiling is a reality, might not be right, but it's a fact of life, at the current point in time. I don't cry because cops stop me if I'm in the ghetto when I shouldn't be there in the first place.

By they way, I don't remember if it was you that said it in an earlier post or not, but I don't call 911 when I see someone strange outside. I call the sheriff's office, since that's who patrols outside of the city limits ( where I live <_>). Thank you, Captain Assumption, for making an ass out of yourself, though.

[pathwriter]

Racial profiling is a reality, might not be right, but it's a fact of life, at the current point in time.

And... you let it persist?

Something is not adding up, either. If you get stopped by police with any regularity and you live outside city limits, then you shouldn't need to identify yourself. Even in large cities, cops work a specific area exactly so that they get to know and be known by the residents. In the suburbs and small towns, that effect is exaggerated.

The claim that white people "shouldn't" be in a low income, largely minority area for any reason is... I'm just amazed you actually wrote that.

[1337NancYBoY]

So making prejudgments based on people's age is now appropriate?

Appropriate? Probably not in your eyes. Justified? Yes, just like being prejudice towards someone's appearance. People who are older are more prone to mental dysfunction than, say, a twenty year old, and people dress in the manner they want the world to perceive them. If I see someone wearing A&F and designer sunglasses, I'm going to assume they're gay. If I see someone wearing gargantuan jeans, a jersey 36 sizes too big and fake gold jewelery walking like they're angry at the world, I'm going to assume they're a wigger. If I see someone dressed in shitty clothes at three am in a shitty part of town just chillin' with an eye out, I'm going to assume he's either buying or selling drugs.

I'm going to assume these things because I'm right 95-98% of the time, and being right most of the time is worth more to me than the emotional pain someone else might feel or the white liberal guilt people think I should have.

Your position in this argument becomes a great deal more clear with these sentences. You are shockingly paranoid and it seems that you're not alone in this.

"It's not a question of whether or not you're paranoid, it's a question of whether or not you're paranoid enough." Tom Clancy.

We live in a world where there is one wolf for every nineteen sheep. There are people out there who can and will take you for damn near everything you have if you give them the opportunity, and they prey on the dumb, curious sheep. And that's the point - I'm not worried about the sheep, I'm worried about the other wolves.

Completely unrelated to the issue at hand. You act surprised that a government would keep tabs on potentially dangerous individuals. I don't see you screaming down the roof that such activites are probably being carried out around the world by various sections of the US government, don't give a shit about their rights do you? Or have you not found a website with sufficiently emotive language to convince you that this is wrong too?

All nations are founded on inequality. It's the very basis of having distinct nations rather than a giant global community.

I don't cry because cops stop me if I'm in the ghetto when I shouldn't be there in the first place.

I honestly cannot believe you just said this. You fucking shouldn't be there? You shouldn't be on public property? Based on what fucking criteria? And who determines who should and shouldn't be allowed in any public location? Did you even think at all before you said that?

[Cruzandercerberus]

"It's not a question of whether or not you're paranoid, it's a question of whether or not you're paranoid enough." Tom Clancy.

Are you sure that wasn't Alex Jones?

[1337NancYBoY]

All I remember of it is that a character said something very similar in one of his books, though I can't recall which one. The Cardinal Of The Kremlin, maybe?

[pathwriter]

Appropriate? Probably not in your eyes. Justified? Yes, just like being prejudice towards someone's appearance. People who are older are more prone to mental dysfunction than, say, a twenty year old, and people dress in the manner they want the world to perceive them. If I see someone wearing A&F and designer sunglasses, I'm going to assume they're gay. If I see someone wearing gargantuan jeans, a jersey 36 sizes too big and fake gold jewelery walking like they're angry at the world, I'm going to assume they're a wigger. If I see someone dressed in shitty clothes at three am in a shitty part of town just chillin' with an eye out, I'm going to assume he's either buying or selling drugs.

Notice how you latched onto my comment and then proceeded to talk about judging people based on how they present themselves? This is a poor argument on your part. If someone who is 68 could just pull on a pair of loafers and be 47 again, I'm sure he'd do it. Assuming that all old people are demented is, well, a delusion of the young. Feel free to cling to it, but you're going to be wrong most of the time unless you make a habit of hanging out near the homeless shelters where age has nothing to do with sanity.

Edit:
If we really are going to judge someone by looks, though, I'm hardly worried that an old Jew is going to break into a vacant house. I'd be more worried that he's going to, you know, steal my retirement fund on Wall Street.