[Phurios]

Lots of people are saying I should respond and facilitate more. I’ve got to apologize for that, this is my first time really posting anything. I had only planned to respond once after I gave all the flamers a full day to shit on me. Also, it’s really hard to have a response to everything that everyone was saying but I’ll try to do it without keeping us here for another 10 pages.

There are a few different things I’m seeing. Don’t think I’m picking on anyone in particular though; these are just the best examples of what’s been said:

Quote

Pandemonium.Nususu
You are the person you are demonizing. You call people who you don't agree with retards. Seems like a pretty elitist thing to do to me. Sure, there are people who have posted less than intelligent replies, but that's to be expected. It's the internet. There are those, however that have posted intelligent replies to your post. If these replies disagree with you, you call them retards or trolls. You are the problem you are crusading against. Prove me wrong.

I only even posted 1 reply, where I called people retards that are crying that it’s too long, saying that it’s someone complaining about their experience with the game or posting the same old trite “QQ” and “butthurt”. Also that if they read the entire article and still posted something like that, it completely went over their heads. If you understood what was happening you wouldn’t post a response that was so completely off the mark.

I’ve not responded to any other posts at all. If I had I’d just have been repeating the things that were said in the article. There was never really anything I felt compelled to talk more about because I pretty much covered everything I wanted to say in the first 12 pages. There was one good one on Allakhazam concerning the relationship between age and player, but I already touched on it, and it died out after 2 posts. I’ve not said anything good, bad or indifferent about people disagreeing with me. Other than at the start of the article where it clearly says:

“People will disagree with the things I say here, that’s not bad, it’s good…”

People are supposed to disagree with it. If you write something and everyone agrees with you, what exactly have you accomplished? All you’ve done is say what everyone already knows. What would be the point?

I think the proper response to reading it looks a lot like this:

“I didn’t agree with everything he said but he makes some good points too.”

Which I was happy to see happen with a lot more people than I anticipated.

A few people are asking “Well, what did you expect to happen?” My 2nd post covers this but I’ll elaborate.

I honestly expected about 50 people would read the first 1-2 pages and stop there to play the I can rip on this guy hardest game (which happened), only 10 people would read the whole thing (more like 25-30 actually did), 2 of them would understand what’s happening, and the other 8 wouldn’t. (15-20 really understood it)

So this actually went over a lot better than I had hoped. And many people are saying things like “No one will even read this and if they do they won’t care 2 shits about it” and “it’s pointless to try to change someone’s mind.” This is completely wrong. Why have forums at all if this is the case? I know I’ve changed my mind about the level of apathy in the community. There’s much more people willing to debate these things than I thought.

A few people are saying things like this:

Quote

Pawkeshup the Ludicrous

Oh, I thought you wanted a discussion. Why not discuss then? Oh wait, that's right, you wanted to attention whore then run off into the sunset to be forgotten. Seems to be the new cool trend to ask for your own thread to be locked I guess.

Other than already discussing in 10+ pages and wanting to hear what others thought, the article has other purposes. A lot more is going on there than at first glance. I thought I covered this in the 2nd post but again I’ll elaborate. The objective of this thread (and a lot of the article) was to point out that given the choice between doing something productive to benefit us or self destructive pettiness; we will choose self destructive pettiness. We suck for doing that, and don’t you think we should change this about ourselves? Again, not everyone did this, but the majority did. If productive things happened, great! But I didn’t expect them to start right here and now.

If you look at the avatar I used, the pretentious asshole level being pushed past maximum, the way I attacked Samurai and HNMs. These things were all bait which hooked a lot of people. Someone described it as a social experiment, that’s not a bad way to put it.

We can spend our time working at our problems or we can call each other “noob” back and forth for 5 pages and keep buying gil. The online gaming culture in general has chosen the latter but I couldn’t care less about what other games are doing. I only care about the games I’m playing, which means the FFXI/FFXIV community. We can’t ignore that these things are worth talking about. The thread on Allakhazam has 19,000+ views (is that accurate?) within just a couple of days, which sounds like a lot to me but then again I know next to nothing about forums. I’ve more or less put XI behind me but if someone more experienced with forums wants to really start talking about this stuff I’d chime in from time to time. Beyond that I’m done until XIV.

[Aeonknight]

So now you're spinning your article as being a means of self reflection on behalf of the community you oh so unfortunately happen to share with the rest of us? And aiming for social change as well? Ok... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't trolling (you were).

You seem like a mildly literate fellow (a nice change from rambus), so you should know that the way you choose to convey your message is going to have a huge impact on whether or not people get the point, or are even willing to give it a second glance. It took 1 sentence for you to lose credibility.

This one particularly: "Most players of FFXI are narcissistic, self congratulatory, greedy, self absorbed geeks with inferiority complexes, who play the game not for the fun or adventure…but to feel special about their gear."
Really? You know most players now? wait, better question... you're in a position to judge us? Holier than thou attitude, leave it at the door.


Is that really supposed to be productive? Did you honestly expect people in general to want to read the rest of your dribble with an opening like that? Hell you just admitted yourself you put in SAM and parsing comments (which btw, said "nerds" are the reason you know your ass from a hole in the ground. Their testing isn't a means of ego inflation, it's called wanting to do the job well) as a means of flame bait (which is trolling). How do you honestly expect people to take what you have to say to heart, then add land mines throughout it all? You might as well stab yourself in the back.

You act surprised on the # of people that actually read it all and commented. Me? I'm surprised too... surprised they gave you the time of day. Because you weren't worth it.

Next time you have some enlightening thing to say, say it right.

[PalidorTheGreat]

Phurios,

First off, I'd like to say Kudos to your article. It was right on the money, and i even loved the M.I.M.S. part heh In fact, if i ever saw Aeonknight in person, i would glady beat the M.I.M.S. right out of him lol

Secondly, as an actual software engineer in the games industry, I am in aggreeance wholeheartedly on giving the players what the what. Unfortunately, there are some problems holding us back from achieving this....

In order to pump out a multi-million dollar bonanza title like FFXI or FFXIV, you need a team of well over 200 people, sometimes upwards of 1000+ (like GTA IV). The reality of the situation is that unless you own a private studio run by 3 or 4 close friends and spend your own hard earned time or money to fund it, you unfortunately have to rely on the "suits". The suits are the business men who check in from time to time with the game, and make the ultimate decision on whether something is worth doing or not. For example, the render engine team might propose that they can have their game Direct X 10 ready in, say, 1 month's time, allowing player's better graphics, and better immersion to boot. The suits will think about it from this angle: "Well, we COULD do that, but we could also add this new instance that wastes people's time to get these really stupid items that will make them think they are cool, and all told, it will only take you about 3 weeks to implement, but ensure that everyone plays for, on average, another month, giving us alot more money than upgrading the render engine." And that is how it works. The suits make the decisions on which direction the game goes, based on how much money they will make in the long run, and not what actually makes the players happy.

The reason FFXI has lasted so long is BECAUSE of all the insanely rare drops that the development added. In all honesty, a single item could take probably 30 minutes to code up, maybe even less when you think they have a small editor that just sets numerical values for it and assigns it to a certain monster, and assigns the model to be associated with it. The really really funny part about it is, this really easy to add item can be a relic weapon that takes years to retrieve, granted SE tons and tons of cash from all your pockets. Not a bad business tactic. The combination of releasing small things to do here and there, and adding many long term goals as well, creates the perfect formula for creating a game that no on can quit, because they will feel like they "gave up". And very few people like to give on something that is addicting and fun. For an example of this, go to your local ghetto and take a look at all the crack whores.

As a part of this process, people with a high level of selfishness, greed, and egotistical will arise, much the same as it does in high school (which is why this is compared to high schooler's sometimes). In high school, the jocks reigned supreme, and the smart people failed because being a jock was popular. You got the girls, you got the friends, and you got the muscles. Being smart only got you good grades, which really didn't make any difference until the real world. After high school, the jocks were sorely met with 1 of two choices: work a labor type job because that's all they could do, or work a really boring job ripping people off, like being a salesman lol (this is very stereotypical, and is only meant as an example). Nerds became the people who gave us cool things like video games, cell phone, and amazing digital TV to keep the mass of America in their homes, consuming their products.

FFXI is very similar. The egotistical selfish people are the jocks of high school. They have amazing gear, they cheat to get ahead, and they can kill that monster for you that you couldn't do by yourself. But at the end of the day when they log off, their life sucks really really bad. And they will swear to hell and back that their life is awesome off the game, but i assure you, this is just a front, and arguing this would be like having a retard fight lol The real stars of this game, and of real life, are the ones that play for fun, and share their honesty and kindness by helping others, and partaking on grand adventures across Van a' diel, enjoying the time they have with everyone, and not giving two shits if someone accidentally dies and loses them 1k XP.

So, that pretty much sums up the reason the games don't change to get rid of people like this, and why people like this are the way thy are. We can complain about it all we want, but the plain fact of the matter is that this plague of people will never leave MMO's, and we'll have to deal with it for years to come, probably even well after we die in a nursing home in front of a computer, crapping ourselves and leveling our 85 Slut / 42.5 Hermaphrodite.

Cheers,
Palidor (Carbuncle)

P.S. I expect many many flames on the Skillz MPK :-)

[Azarall]

Phurios, on 31 August 2009 - 04:28 PM, said:

<a href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARux7O-L8x6dZGhkbTU1Z3ZfMWp6MmJtcDIy&hl=en" target="_blank">The Big FFXI Mess</a>

Lets discuss this.

It's not okay for others to brag about their own gear that took them 1-4 months a piece to earn but it IS okay for you to label yourself as a cool nerd after writing a 1000+ word essay on what is destroying Final Fantasy XI.

I'm confused.

Also, considering alot of events have time limitations, I think pumping out the most damage/second is why we have preferred DD jobs deal damage rather than WHMs xD But I agree, in EXP I don't think your dps/second matters for shit, as long as I'm hitting that 10k/hour marker I want.

But people being self-loving and violent is nothing new. It's just one of those many sins that most people have. The important thing to remember is that gamers are people to.

Well written though, I agree with 70% of it and as you suggested, the 30% I didnt agree with, I ignored.

[Azarall]

Velhart, on 01 September 2009 - 07:24 AM, said:

I do agree on some of his things. But really, some things he points out are common things in all MMO's. No matter what online game you play, there will be elitist and assholes who havn't figured out how to get that tree out of their ass.

When I see people talking mathematically, it worries me a bit. I'm just the type of person who likes to have fun with the game and not think too hard about it.

Even though I always work on getting better gear (wouldn't say mine is the best, but mid-par is a safe word to describe my gear), whenever I do get something better, I never truly see a big difference, IMO i'm hitting the same amount of DoT I was before. Now when i'm on WoW, whenever I get a new piece of a gear, the difference really shows. Hate to compare these two games, but yeeeeep. I think the purpose of getting better gear now has gone down to only trying to raise your epeen stats up.

I also really care less what people wear to exp parties, if they want to full AF, it doesn't bother me, as long as they are bringing damage in, its fine with me.

I'm not going to continue repeating what the guy said in his documentation, but I 100% agree on being nicer to those who arn't as familiar to the game as we are and trying to learn.

Damn, its like high school all over again, haha.

Its not about gaining gloves then BOOM your entire build comes together. The math exists to show people WHY these stats are important. I mean, i remember when I leveled DRG, I went from +9STR +25DEX, pentathrusting for 400-600. The next day I rehauled gear, +29STR +12 DEX, pentas where hitting 700-1200. The math wasnt important but i was glad i KNEW the math in order to improve my job, therefor improving any event and exp party I would join.

Another fantastic example would be meriting enhancing magic and healing magic for blu/rdm. Had I not known how much MND and enhancing magic skill it would have taken to get stoneskin to 300HP, or phalanx to -12 (gear and merits), or how haste actually has a cap and so using haste gear over that cap would be a waste or how certain foods require certain base stats to get the most out of them...

Well lots just say tanking on BLU (when required) would be alot more stressful than it really is.

This math allows for exceptionally better players. We all know that better player doesnt equal better person, but can you argue better player doesn't equal better player? No, and since it's a game, that's all that matters. Who cares about their personality. Just because you don't like elitist types or jackass types doesn't mean that those people don't have their own friends, their own cliques.

When you're down to that last 1%-3% of a mob and you're victim of a full-wipe (We've all had this happen). Just remember, someone in your group could have done the math and cleared that gap, ensuring victory. And as good as "having fun when losing" sounds in writing, spending 6 hours on an event, losing 6k exp buffer and 20k in medications... Just doesn't sound worth it to me.

[Yhelothur]

The fucking OP is copying the exact same posts he's made on the FFXIAH.com forums and throwing them here. He's a gigantic troll, and a worthless piece of shit that has more of an FFXI addiction than he's willing to admit to.

This needs locked, preferably deleted. It's just crap, and so few people care that it's just sad.

Anyone else notice that the people mainly that care are the ones always getting treated like shit due to their own stupidity?


And a little disclaimer: I agree about being nicer to some people, and some of the finer points of this. How it was brought to our attention however, was terrible. You're not going to get any results like this, you'd be better off if you quit your crying, and follow your own advice. Maybe it'll catch on, but you can't change people. I still think the OP is an idiot because he keeps posting.

[alaan]

I'm having issues with this new forum layout so I won't actually quote, but to whoever it was that said they don't feel that one piece of gear makes a difference, you are not thinking about it in the larger picture. This isn't WoW, where one piece of gear gives you instant gratification, and instant e-peen hardons with a dramatic increase in performance. This is FFXI, where you have to think about, organize, and set up entire sets of gear to create a higher output of damage or healing or whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

I don't know I am just really tired and i found that comment really stupid. People need to stop comparing these games, and maybe get into their heads exactly how it is that this one works.

Also, OP is everything he called the "elitists" because he created QQ posts as if his opinions of those people he's talking about matters.

[Velhart]

Azarall, on 03 September 2009 - 10:34 PM, said:

Its not about gaining gloves then BOOM your entire build comes together. The math exists to show people WHY these stats are important. I mean, i remember when I leveled DRG, I went from +9STR +25DEX, pentathrusting for 400-600. The next day I rehauled gear, +29STR +12 DEX, pentas where hitting 700-1200. The math wasnt important but i was glad i KNEW the math in order to improve my job, therefor improving any event and exp party I would join.

Another fantastic example would be meriting enhancing magic and healing magic for blu/rdm. Had I not known how much MND and enhancing magic skill it would have taken to get stoneskin to 300HP, or phalanx to -12 (gear and merits), or how haste actually has a cap and so using haste gear over that cap would be a waste or how certain foods require certain base stats to get the most out of them...

Well lots just say tanking on BLU (when required) would be alot more stressful than it really is.

This math allows for exceptionally better players. We all know that better player doesnt equal better person, but can you argue better player doesn't equal better player? No, and since it's a game, that's all that matters. Who cares about their personality. Just because you don't like elitist types or jackass types doesn't mean that those people don't have their own friends, their own cliques.

When you're down to that last 1%-3% of a mob and you're victim of a full-wipe (We've all had this happen). Just remember, someone in your group could have done the math and cleared that gap, ensuring victory. And as good as "having fun when losing" sounds in writing, spending 6 hours on an event, losing 6k exp buffer and 20k in medications... Just doesn't sound worth it to me.

alaan, on 03 September 2009 - 10:44 PM, said:

I'm having issues with this new forum layout so I won't actually quote, but to whoever it was that said they don't feel that one piece of gear makes a difference, you are not thinking about it in the larger picture. This isn't WoW, where one piece of gear gives you instant gratification, and instant e-peen hardons with a dramatic increase in performance. This is FFXI, where you have to think about, organize, and set up entire sets of gear to create a higher output of damage or healing or whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

I don't know I am just really tired and i found that comment really stupid. People need to stop comparing these games, and maybe get into their heads exactly how it is that this one works.

Also, OP is everything he called the "elitists" because he created QQ posts as if his opinions of those people he's talking about matters.

Now don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with either one of you. When I meant was that I don't like to think mathematically because when I start taking the game too serioualy, it starts to not get fun and become more of a chore than anything, I didn't say it wasn't helpful.

Also to the next guy, I do apologize for comparing, but my standards in the rewarding factor are just different, when I work really hard for months to get something, I really want it to make a major difference, not a slight difference. But I only say this because I play about 3 MMO's right now, if I was still just playing FFXI, I would be in the same ball park as you. So I don't disagree with you, actually you are right on all parts, but like I said, its more of a personal thing than anything else.

[Azarall]

Velhart, on 04 September 2009 - 08:17 AM, said:

Now don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with either one of you. When I meant was that I don't like to think mathematically because when I start taking the game too serioualy, it starts to not get fun and become more of a chore than anything, I didn't say it wasn't helpful.

Also to the next guy, I do apologize for comparing, but my standards in the rewarding factor are just different, when I work really hard for months to get something, I really want it to make a major difference, not a slight difference. But I only say this because I play about 3 MMO's right now, if I was still just playing FFXI, I would be in the same ball park as you. So I don't disagree with you, actually you are right on all parts, but like I said, its more of a personal thing than anything else.

Well personally, I don't sit down with a calculator and paper and do the math. Very few people do, and in fact those people just post their findings on ffxiclopedia and move on with their lives. But this game is ALOT more fun when you're good at it. I mean, I know your pants don't fly off and you begin fapping furiously to 500 more DMG in your weapon skills, but it DOES grant some satisfaction to see yourself doing above par damage or holding hate well or healing professionally without any downtime, and you know it's all thanks to the time you spent farming and doing events.

These ratios for gilbuying are insane btw. I mean, I've played on Kujata(2003-2005) Alexander(2005-2006) Bahamut(2006-2007) and Garuda(2007-2009) and I don't think I'd be PTing with Dragoons in full AF or PLDs using solid MP gear or RDMs who have STR rings equipped for some reason. In fact, if anything people NEED to buy gil because they obviously just want to gimp their asses to 75 and luck out on a few pieces of Sky Gear.

I'm very guilty of the MIME syndrome. I pay for this game to see what I can accomplish, not so I can see others succeed. It's a noble cause to ask all of FFXI to unite together, and once this game goes down and people play on private servers and starts inviting friends and like-minded people, that's probably what will happen. But as of now any 12 year old with their mom's credit card, any 50 year old with social issues, and any 21 year old who's hiding from law enforcement for murder and needs time to lay low can pay and play this game. Welcome to the Internets. If that's all I wanted, I'd just youtube FFXI videos. Making friends on FFXI is an obvious, not sure we needed 1000 word essay to explain that.

Personally I like WoW's reward system. It lets you spend more time actually DOING things instead of spending months to get the gear to do things. Content based, FFXI has very little and as was stated earlier in this thread, we've been sold a crappy deal but we all eat it because it's final fantasy. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

Anyways I'm off to go kick people from my pt for wearing full af and DDing in phalanx rings while bragging about my gear that cost roughly 2 mil but since its good it must have been bought with RL money. /thread

[Ezekial]

He does make a good point with a lot of what was said.

Quote

* Arguing extensive mathematical breakdowns of gear…is the nerdiest crap you can possibly do, get a grip on reality.


* Big damage will not increase your penis size, nor will it get you laid…no one cares how much your WS/nuke does.

These 2 things I horribly disagree with.

1 - some people like math, people also like knowing how shit works, others just want an excuse to not waste x amount of time acquiring item A that looks better then B but on paper is not.

2 - To the right person yes it does.

Unfortunately this rant to me seemed like it was just the perspective of a person that did not have the time to invest in one of the biggest time sinks since EQ, He seems to have a lot of hostility towards players when in fact everything he has mentioned is SE's fault.

The entire argument should be directed towards SE and not FFXI players.

In the end this guy is just another retarded nub.

[Azarall]

* Big damage will not increase your penis size, nor will it get you laid…no one cares how much your WS/nuke does.

Actually I care how much my WS/nuke does, in fact others who have never seen a BLU perform properly (again, I blame the retard spell-spamming AF wearing MP-ring wearing retards) are often quiet impressed how much my 100%TP CASA Frenetic Rip does. Anddd my wife likes seeing her man kick ass in and out of game so you never know. My 1200+ Cannonball just MIGHT get me laid.

But you're right. Bigger weapon skill damage won't make my penis any bigger. Thank god I don't play FFXI with my penis, eh?

[PalidorTheGreat]

It pretty much comes down to this:

Those that care, do care. And they will swear up and down that those that DON'T care are making this game trashy and they should stop playing.

Those that don't care, do not care. And they will swear up and down that those that DO care are making this game trashy and they should stop playing.

Does anyone here at all see the symbolism to one of those cards from Spencer's where both sides of the card says "To find out what the message is, turn me over!" ?

It doesn't matter if you care or not. You're an idiot for arguing over digitally processed computer signals lol

This post has been edited by PalidorTheGreat: 04 September 2009 - 01:40 PM

[Dawnn]

I log on to hang out with friends and see if they need help with anything. In the process I’ve gotten a fair amount of gear over the years because those very people have been nice enough to force me to lot on some stuff.

It’s hard for me to worry so much about how everyone else behaves because there’s really nothing much I can do about it. Different people enjoy the game in different ways. Some like calculating out their performance, others like to set records for themselves in terms of damage they can do. I don’t really see anything wrong with it. Just /wave to the people you meet and avoid those you don’t really care much for.

If you don’t think one job gets enough respect you either play another job or play the job you love and just deal with it.

The only thing I would disagree with is griefing but then there’s the GM system for that. Even if GMs can’t do anything about it, I feel confident in the idea that what goes around comes around.

[Aeonknight]

lol this thread is bad enough to even bring random fail pricks like palidor wayyyyy out of left field to it. Guess what paly? no one here knows about your skillz MPK 6ish years ago. Hell I doubt any of the people you took down that day even still play. Keep dead, carby specific drama in the carby forums, drop the e-thug thing for a second, and pick up the piece of shined shit you call your PLD and do work son.

[PalidorTheGreat]

Dear Aeon,

Sorry, i'm not like you. I don't step on others to get ahead, which is the kind of trash the OP was talking about. I don't brag about how great my FFXI career is has been, and what kind of gear I have, which is the kind of trash the OP was talking about. So seriously man, give it up

You're Pal and Confidant,
Palidor

[Yhelothur]

Hey, how about you keep your personal gay drama between yourselves, and focus on how much of an idiot the OP is.

[Corrderio]

Yhelothur, on 04 September 2009 - 06:20 PM, said:

Hey, how about you keep your personal gay drama between yourselves, and focus on how much of an idiot the OP is.

Is there anything else that can be said?

[Aeonknight]

PalidorTheGreat, on 04 September 2009 - 06:01 PM, said:

Dear Aeon,

Sorry, i'm not like you. I don't step on others to get ahead, which is the kind of trash the OP was talking about. I don't brag about how great my FFXI career is has been, and what kind of gear I have, which is the kind of trash the OP was talking about. So seriously man, give it up

You're Pal and Confidant,
Palidor

Lol you're quite enjoyable to read. It's a new rumor every time with you. Last time I was a hacker, or a gil buyer, or something.... I forget. Now I step on people to get ahead. As if you'd even know, none of the people i'm friends with are associated with you in any way (thank god). It's pretty hard to start up a rumor mill when the only one making em, as well as listening to them, is you.

Am I proud of my PLD? Sure, why not. I'm also pretty laid back when it comes to other people playing the job. You see trash PLD on a near daily basis, but as long as they're not TPing in AGI rings and what not I really don't say anything to them. But I have no problem giving credit where it's due, especially when it comes to my personal troll. Now... why don't you go sue Skillz for harassing your grandma or something.

[Yhelothur]

Eh, guess the OP is right at least about you two bleeding cunts. What, was he your best friend or something?

[Corrderio]

Yhelothur, on 04 September 2009 - 07:52 PM, said:

Eh, guess the OP is right at least about you two bleeding cunts. What, was he your best friend or something?

Something about Palidor being a notorious asshole in the past. Something about how he took pride in MPKing a group at Tiamat or something.