[Daevar]

Well, now that I have my blau and sirocco - lightning fast combo, by the way, and loving it until X's - and my trotter boots, I'm starting to feel more like a real thief. This got me thinking, though, what else do I need to do to further improve my thief? And in this case, I am specifically looking at soloing - or rather, being nigh untouchable.

I have heard from a handful of people that there is a point at which evasion+ gear reaches some degree of diminishing return, after which point stacking actual AGI is more beneficial. Now, this is not referring to evasion skill+ gear, that's entirely different, and as far as I know should be pushed as high as it can with boxer's mantle, evasion torque, emissary boots, etc. Though please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Does anyone know what the supposed cap or diminishing return point may be for Evasion+, for AGI, or other related factors? What, in others' opinions, would be the best possible 'Avoidance' gear set as a combination of skill+, evasion+, and AGI? I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[Arcsol]

where is nef at?
this is his current eva setup, i think he said some time ago that he was sitting at like a 70% evasion on most anything that was a possibility to solo
http://www.ffxiah.co...ts.php?id=61966

[Havok]

Evasion is probably my least knowledgeable area on THF, but I think my basic understanding is sound; throw on a healthy chunk of evasion skill + items (Boxer's mantle/Evasion torque), max out most of the rest of your slots with evasion +, and throw in a little agility. There are several things I could stand to improve (ie; unguar boomerang, azoth and ermine's tail), but I think overall my setup is pretty solid: http://www.ffxiah.co...ts.php?id=93136

The nice thing about evasion sets is there are lots of pieces of gear to choose from. If you can't get a rare/ex premium item, there's almost always some cost effective alternative on the AH.

[nefarious.lover]

War Gloves +1 and Coarse cape atm, need sea access on this toon and haven't bothered to nyzul for the hands yet, I cap eva rate on most things around IT with my setup.


Normal +eva does not have diminishing returns, it's actually evasion skill, if anything, that has diminishing returns, and if it follows the pattern that's been tested with most other combat skills, past I think 220 (citation needed, saw it cited in a BG thread a while back, don't care to go find it, you hit it absolutely on almost any job at 75), the diminishing return isn't so much diminishing as it just changes where it's .9 per +1 skill instead of 1.1 per skill. Otherwise, if there is no change to +skill, then they're identical, and for purely evasion dance shoes +1 are superior to emmisary boots, I've yet to build a set that includes parry because I'm not sure if it's worth it.

The set Arcsol linked is pretty much as good as a pure evasion set gets.

If you're mixing parry, then you'd want the emmisary boots and gnole crown.


Just to make sure I cover all your points; normal +eva doesn't hit any cap or diminished return, skill might hit a level where it changes from 1.1 to .9.
Agi offers parry in addition to Eva, but at no point is agility superior to evasion unless you were to somehow acquire it at at 2:1 agi to eva available in that slot ratio.

[Shamaya]

As nef said, as a matter of design there're no known built-in decreasing marginal gains. As a matter of (natural) function, though, there is a particular rate of growth. Whereas one might be initially inclined to say that there are decreasing marginal gains, since the marginal difference in your evade rate going from the floor of 5% -> 6% evasion (6 / 5) is a larger number than reaching the cap of 79% -> 80% (80/79, for example. But we care about enemy hit rate. So looking at it like this, additional points of evasion/evade-rate have a cumulative/exponential growth. Ie,

5-15% evade rate (+20 evasion), = 95% (19/20) to 85% (17/20) enemy hit rate
70-80% evade rate (+20 evasion) = 30% (~1/3) to 20% (1/5) enemy hit rate

But it's been many years and nothing's been found as to "at x% evade rate, agi/evaskill/eva is better." For the most part, the veterans have given up on that kind of model and went with the 2agi=1eva, 1evaskill = 1eva pre 200 and 0.9 post 200, and 1eva=0.5%evade.

Agi can be good though. If given the choice between 19agi (9.5 evasion) and 10 evasion, you might not be wrong in going with agi. As we know, it can improve parry (we suspect), and reduce enemy crit rate (as well as shield, guard, ranged acc, ta, yada yada).


Biggest word of advice I can give is to get yourself a true full alchemadian build, maxing your evasion, but also keep other hybrid tanking/solo/eva builds which include dps stats and/or subtle blow, so you can be flexible.

[Aliadim]

Not a thief, but figured I'd ask here and figured you would know. Ahem.

+5 Evasion Skill

or....

+10 AGI and +5 EVA.

[pathwriter]

Hachiryu Sune-Ate, without question.

[Aliadim]

pathwriter, on 23 September 2009 - 08:19 PM, said:

Hachiryu Sune-Ate, without question.

Glad to hear that. Thanks, Path!

[nefarious.lover]

Leave it to beaver to swoop in to answer what's already answered in the thread.

[Aliadim]

nefarious.lover, on 23 September 2009 - 10:04 PM, said:

Leave it to beaver to swoop in to answer what's already answered in the thread.

It's not his fault. I did the math of the above statement, but the difference -seemed- marginal. I wasn't sure if there was some other factors to consider when comparing the two. (Ahem, point: My fault for asking. Not his for answering.)

(Although, I'm assuming you also agree with his above statement? Just making sure.)

[Daevar]

I want to thank you all for your help. This is informative, and quite useful. I'll have to keep this all in mind while adjusting my evasion build. Thanks again.

[nefarious.lover]

5 evasion is equal to or greater than 5 evasion skill.

Any agility is a bonus. There's not even a contest.

[Aliadim]

nefarious.lover, on 24 September 2009 - 04:35 AM, said:

5 evasion is equal to or greater than 5 evasion skill.

Any agility is a bonus. There's not even a contest.

Was a bit confused by the math above my question then. Suggested 1 skill being 0.9 EVA but 1 EVA being 0.5 EVA. May have just read it wrong. But thank ya.

[Shamaya]

you probably mean

Quote

1eva=0.5%evade

It's NP. Though it's like accuracy. 1acc = 0.5 acc% (or hit rate %, whichever you awnna call it). ie you parse 50% evade rate--add 2 evasion, and you're now at 51%

[treelo]

Wait a sec..

Did we just have two people leave a thread satisfied with the responses they were given?

I think this shit just kicked in...

[Utena_Otaku]

Since this is a bit about evasion figured I'd post it here before making a topic about it. Read through that first guide but didn't see anything about what I am curious about.

I am a newly 75 thf and was wondering how best to go capping my evasion skill. I've been capping dagger on steelshells but almost never get any skill (evason is only 260 or so). I tried Pucks in Den of Rancor, but they were too hard.
Wondering how to best go about this. Targets or setups and and suggestions would be helpful.
Thank you.

[Shamaya]

I did it on steelshells too back in the day. It's probably still one of the better methods. Just makes ur targets are em+. Perhaps toughs would give you the best returns. Just make sure you don't do DC or you won't get anything. But you've probably already tried that.

You could also probably do the puks at mamool ja staging point or maybe in mamook. Chigoes might be nice but they hit kinda fast. Mmm, idk.

[treelo]

Shame nobody EXPs on Deco Weapons, I know a lot of my EVA skill was from there. The final 0.3 was from an Eclipse Bite to the face from Fenrir.

Duoing Aura Statues with a RDM, or either of the things Shamaya suggested should work though.

[Sakka_Valefor]

Bibiki bay. sight pulled the 3 goblins by the catoblepas, then hide when my friend was low on MP from curebombing.

[pathwriter]

Pull aggro in a merit party and collect skillups as the Greater Colibri beats on you.

Oh, wait, you're a Thief. Well, maybe saccing Dynamis a few times will do it.