[Demireamer]

so im slowly leveling my DNC and enjoying ever second of it might be my new fav class to play

almost 60 and at the end of my pt talking to some ppl from it i say i am about to hit 60 and /sam 2 of them try telling not to bother, cuz /nin is clearly better and in there argument that /nin has better tp gain then /sam, any one that reads the smn forum here know i like to do my math, and in it i see store tp II is clearly better then Dual Wield II for pt gain, here is my math is dagger/s with 194 delay

Dual Wield II
329.8 delay for 2 swings

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
5.0 + [(164.9 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]

4.87 tp per swing

2 swings ever ~5.5 sec
10 set of swing in a min (20 swings)

97.4tp/min

store tp II

194 delay for 1 swing

{5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270]} * 1.15
{5.0 + [(194 - 180) * 6.5 / 270] }* 1.15

6.13tp per swing
1 swing ever ~3.2sec
about 18 swings a min

110.34tp/min

as we all know 110.34 > 97.4

so what i want to know is my math wrong some how? or am i right that /sam is better tp gain

p.s. i know the stat boost from having a second dagger is nice and Utsusemi is fun if you have hate or pulling,

[TresDuendes]

you dont lose the same amount of tp a hit as you do delay
that is to say, if you have dw 2 and suppa, you'll cut off 20% delay but only lose about 7% tp a hit or so iirc
either way, sub rng and use your af chakram for maximum tp gain

[Demireamer]

TresDuendes, on 11 October 2009 - 12:47 AM, said:

you dont lose the same amount of tp a hit as you do delay
that is to say, if you have dw 2 and suppa, you'll cut off 20% delay but only lose about 7% tp a hit or so iirc
either way, sub rng and use your af chakram for maximum tp gain

WIki says:

Quote

TP per hit is calculated using the reduced Delay.

* When dual wielding weapons with different Delays, the average Delay (reduction included) is used for the TP calculations; both weapons will gain the same TP.

so 2 weapons of 194 with Dual Wield II would have 164.9 delay each or a 329.8 delay for the 2

164.9 is less then 180 so the math is "
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180] =
5.0 + [(164.9 - 180) * 1.5/180] =
5.0 +(-15.1*1.5/180)=
5.0+(-22.65/180)=
5.0 - 0.12583333333333333333333333333333 =
4.8741666666666666666666666666667 = ~4.87

if you could pls help, where is my math wrong?

EDIT: its about 8.1% less tp not 15 in my math (105.38tp/min w/Suppanomimi)

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 11 October 2009 - 11:31 AM

[TresDuendes]

while what wiki says is correct, i think you're taking either it or what i said out of context
it's true that if you have 2 weapons with different delay, it will average them out and you'll get that much tp a hit with either weapon
however, the delay reduced by dual wield is more than the amount of tp lost per hit
i dont know of the exact numbers (and i dont really care that much) but i've been told its something around what i said
DW2 + Suppa is about a 20% delay reduction and 7%tp/hit loss

Easy way to test this is to buy 2 cheap daggers with the same delay
hit a mob / use ffxi calc / do the safety dance to determine tp/hit
then dual wield them and see how much tp/hit you get

while your math is sound, the information you have is slightly skewed

[TresDuendes]

wait god damnit what the fuck am i doing

[Demireamer]

TresDuendes, on 11 October 2009 - 04:58 PM, said:

wait god damnit what the fuck am i doing

i think your saying using duel wield > then not,
and this is true
if say it was dnc/mnk tp gain would be ~95.4tp/min
so yes DW dose help with tp gain BUT the math seems to show /sam's Store TP II is better at giving tp
then DWII from /nin.
i would like to know if my math look right on that end

so DWII give about +2% more tp then just using 1 dagger and StpII give +15% if my math is right???

[TresDuendes]

actually i think DW2 + suppa gives about 13% more tp a hit than if you just used 1 dagger
with sam too, dont forget you can use a a shield

however, dont forget about utsu
it's good in a tight spot and is more likely to save your pt than handful of extra tp every minute
that and you can use joyeuse at 75 and still be able to land steps on things above EM~

though it would be funny to watch a dnc try to land steps on shit with a joyeuse, just to watch them flail about more than usual

also, what i am doing is being useful to the dnc forums, which is entirely counter to my morals

[TresDuendes]

because dnc is a joke of a job

[Demireamer]

TresDuendes, on 12 October 2009 - 02:09 AM, said:

actually i think DW2 + suppa gives about 13% more tp a hit than if you just used 1 dagger
with sam too, dont forget you can use a a shield

however, dont forget about utsu
it's good in a tight spot and is more likely to save your pt than handful of extra tp every minute
that and you can use joyeuse at 75 and still be able to land steps on things above EM~

though it would be funny to watch a dnc try to land steps on shit with a joyeuse, just to watch them flail about more than usual

also, what i am doing is being useful to the dnc forums, which is entirely counter to my morals

the math dosnt seem to back you 105.38tp/min = DW +suppa < STPII 110.34tp/min
with the joy toy you might be able to but from what i seen from dnc is they tend to miss both swings more often then not with the joytoy,

and utsu dosnt seem to be a reson to /nin i have stolen hate 2 time so far as dnc both time curing the brd cuz he fail to sleep the bird, in both case 3rd eye would of good to cover me for blinks and its free, and umm thats all nin give you... with /sam ill still have Meditate and Zanshin (10%) both seem super useful to dnc to me

[TresDuendes]

i worded it wrong, i should have said it gives 13% more tp vs just single wielding a dagger. saying that a joy dnc is going to miss both of their hits instead of hitting the only dagger swing is pretty misguided as well. the acc diff isnt so large that the much higher dps doesnt make up for it.
and if you're not pulling hate, you're probably not curing very much because the majority of tanks suck at holding hate in xp anymore.
also, zanshin and third eye are fairly lulzy to use as arguments for /sam

[Demireamer]

TresDuendes, on 12 October 2009 - 02:54 PM, said:

i worded it wrong, i should have said it gives 13% more tp vs just single wielding a dagger. saying that a joy dnc is going to miss both of their hits instead of hitting the only dagger swing is pretty misguided as well. the acc diff isnt so large that the much higher dps doesnt make up for it.
and if you're not pulling hate, you're probably not curing very much because the majority of tanks suck at holding hate in xp anymore.
also, zanshin and third eye are fairly lulzy to use as arguments for /sam

i was talkign about 3rd eye to say how "lulzy" utus is for a reson to /nin, the points realy are

Resones one woudl /nin

1 Dual Wield
2 Utsusemi

Resons to /sam

1 STORE TP
2 Meditate
3 zanshin


purely on TP gain STORE TP > Dual Wield is what i was tring to get 100% sure on this post, the math and no one realy saing it isnt mean yes store tp > DW for TP gain

leaving with Utsusemi VS Meditate & Zanshin, or 3/4 blinks vs 60tp every 3min and a 10% re-swing on miss swings, personly as a dnc i have never been happy i had utsu but i have missed and getting free tp ever 3 min would of come in handdy more.

[TresDuendes]

yes, /sam gives a bit more tp over time vs /nin
weather or not its worth it to lose the added benefits from /nin is up to you though

[Requim]

Easy determining factor is if you have a mage in the party or if you're the dedicated healer.

Dancer is usually in a hybrid role for parties, which also needs to be contributing damage. /sam is superior to tp gain, but inferior to a /nin's damage and survival potential. If you can main heal as /nin then you're prolly better off staying /nin and if you aren't main healing you'll still be better off /nin.

[nefarious.lover]

/sam TP gain is utterly irrelevant.



There are no valid examples of situation where you can actually USE the extra TP as effectively as you could /nin.


How are you going to cure extensively, or main heal, /sam?

How are you going to attempt to DD and WS more often, /sam?


You're not.

You can try but unless your gear is absolute trash you're going to pull way more hate and take way more damage than the minuscule amounts of extra TP from /sam could justify.


Subbing anything but Ninja on DNC is the fastest way to identify someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're doing.

Baring niche roles and niche situations, you're simply not in a position to excel or even perform on par with a sub ninja counterpart.



The very limited list of exceptions being lolleveling where at certain levels, probably with a PL, you can sub whatever you want and probably do more damage /war or something.



Your friends are dumb. The crux of their argument should be survivability, DPS, and versatility, TP gain shouldn't even make it into the discussion. The point of /nin superiority should have been conceded at the point where someone had the sense to ask "Even if it had +100 latent store TP and did the same amount of DPS, what are you going to do with all that extra TP besides sponge damage once you pull hate, thus negating and going negative on net TP gained over /nin?", and unfortunately it appears none of your friends had the sense or knowledge to make this point and end the retarded discussion before it got posted somewhere where I had to have the displeasure of watching someone use looks-good-on-paper math to try to support an inherently flawed line of reasoning.







tl;dr :: Extra TP gain is totally meaningless when your fucking face is getting eaten off every time you try to use it to perform any of the basic functions the job is intended to perform.

[Banggugyangu]

pre-Ni in campaign, I've found /SAM to be far superior to /NIN for soloing the non-NM mobs. The extra TP is extremely useful in that situation, as recasts are difficult. Everything else, yeah... I can't justify /SAM.