[Yhelothur]

Well, footwork showed promise, till we realized for the most part that we could still melee better with our normal h2h. The WS's weren't as high peak-wise, but overall nothing changed in the end result of our damage being mediocre at endgame.

[pathwriter]

Monk isn't really hurting right now, it's just a lot of player perception centered largely around that which has always plagued MMOs: apparent spike damage.

Back before Overwhelm, doubled Attack on Tachi: Gekko (I know for a fact that Howling Fist's bonus is nothing remotely that good and Dragon Kick's is worse), and XP on piercing weak mobs from 37 to infinity, Raging Fists and Asuran Fists were premier weaponskills. In spite of that, though, Guillotine and Penta Thrust still tended to draw more attention for a time, if only because of the exploitable TP return. Monk was laughed at while the well-geared Monks (like me) were pulling down 40%+ of their party's damage, probably closer to 50% because back then tanks didn't do damage. The same problem exists today.

What's this endgame that people are talking about? I've never actually melee'd Angra Mainyu, so I have no idea how miserable he is, but pretty much every job suffers in Dynamis Beaucedine and Xarcabard, to the point that I have decided to simply exploit my excellent Holy Bolt build on Ranger instead of getting frustrated with Demon Arrows or Darksteel Bolts. Monk/Dark Knight tears up the Dynamis Lord, though. Monks have had no problem meleeing Fafnir nor Nidhogg, but how many of us actually camp that shit anymore? On most servers, there are one or two hardcore linkshells still doing it and the rest of us simply don't care. The bosses in Einherjar are beastly and I'll freely admit that Monk gets short-changed a little bit on them, especially if the Bard rotation isn't working so well, but the mobs before the bosses are wheat before my blunt threshing machine. When it comes to meleeing the Shijin down, a Monk should have no trouble unless there's literally no support whatsoever. Jailers are a mixed bag, but like the Shijin and three Kings, very few people still do them.

Of the really tough targets, what does that leave? Sandworm NMs, which I've never fought, so I have no idea how tough they are. I'm told that top tier ZNMs are a throwback to manaburn days and, as such, melee of almost any kind of largely discouraged with Samurai sneaking in because of Meditate and Sekkanoki (and 'cause Third Eye is practically the best way to tank Sarameya, or so I'm told).. I guess there's Tiamat, but that's another one of those things that 99.99% of the server neither touches nor even cares about anymore. I know I stopped giving a shit about her when Hermes' Sandals were introduced.

What it really boils down to is that Monk doesn't do amazing damage out of the box and unsupported. What's lost is that the same is true of every job. An AH-geared Samurai (and Hagun doesn't count as "AH-geared") has a few advantages over an AH-geared Monk simply because Store TP acts as pseudo-Haste, but we've got a Brown Belt in our favor so the gap is not as wide as some perceive.

And, regardless, what do most of us do with our time? Merits, Salvage, Nyzul Isle, and Dynamis are probably at the top of the list. Piercing-weak merit mobs is the skew. Put me against a Samurai in gear similar to mine with a Hagun in his hands and we're going to parse pretty much neck-and-neck. He might win out a little bit because I intentionally position to ensure Overwhelm and I try to open for skillchains whenever possible. It takes Warriors and Samurai a minute to notice that I'm using Asuran Fists right before they get TP for Tachi: Gekko or Steel Cyclone, but they tend to pick up on it. But throw an extra arbitrary 25% increase in damage into their corner and, even accounting for adjustments for Accuracy loss, it changes the dynamic. I'd probably be less irritated by the piercing bonus except that SE has made flying mobs damned near ubiquitous and the blunt bonus on skeletons (which are a pretty atrocious XP mob when you think about it compared to Colibri) is half as much.

What does Monk really need? Player perception, for the most part. Counterstance could use a tweak, too. In terms of reliability, Seigan + Third Eye is around the 45-60% that Counterstance is in terms of mitigating damage (yeah, we do damage while mitigating it), but a Samurai can throw on a defensive kit and significantly reduce damage when Third Eye craps out within 2 seconds of use. Even if I put on my defensive kit on Monk, which is better than most Samurai can achieve owing to Black Belt, I still have an actual Defense stat that automatically caps any mob's pDIF against me. Change the penalty on Counterstance to even a 50% cut to Defense (not like Monk has meaningful Defense in the first place) and there is no reason that Monk/Warrior wouldn't be standard anywhere. It'd remove my incessant bitching to have a taunt ability, too, because I'd have Provoke again.

As for Chi Blast, though, it's fine as it is.

[Silvra]

Only thing about Chi Blast is charge time / damage output. Alone nothing is wrong with Chi Blast, instant damage ability, no TP with TP reducing ability with merits. Problem is the perception of a damaging ability on par with DPS. On a honest average of anywhere of 450-1000 damage depending on buffs and mob, this kind of damage every 3 mins goes unwarranted compared to other melees and the loss in damage the MNK is making due to not melee(having to boost and such). The problem then comes down to its charging use being the only thing not keep up. If the ability was just a hate tool, then 3mins would have to justify a huge enmity reduction/bonus depending on use. For a "mnk ranged attack" LOL. For a DPS ability its useless. For a spike damage ability its decent but that being said more than likely unless MNK is your only 75 then you'll prob come something else to things one cannot melee, otherwise you'll be melee or should be. Only thing I can see in change to Chi Blast is either the formula, method, or timer. A 1min timer would be fine, an extra 50-60 damage here and there with the TP mitigation would be cool. If were keeping it at 3mins then the formula doesnt need to be boost based to see decnet numbers. Keeping the MND based stat would be fine but for a "worthwhile" ability the damage unboosted would need to be around 300-700 im guessing to make people happy, or the TP mitigation effect last longer and be more potent. if it was kept the way it was then having to boost for 3mins and not melee this damage needs to be higher lets say in the 1.5k-2k range. I love my MNK, never had so much fun on a job, it was my 2nd 75. At first I geared up for a Chi Blast(think right before ToAU) but after that I have not really used the ability much. It has its utility but in concerns with being a damage tool it has be done away with. Now if they really did make a way to enhance it without boosting or made it mitigate TP even further then it would be a bit more worthwhile in my opinion.

[Alisha]

pathwriter, on 25 October 2009 - 10:15 PM, said:

What it really boils down to is that Monk doesn't do amazing damage out of the box and unsupported. What's lost is that the same is true of every job. An AH-geared Samurai (and Hagun doesn't count as "AH-geared") has a few advantages over an AH-geared Monk simply because Store TP acts as pseudo-Haste, but we've got a Brown Belt in our favor so the gap is not as wide as some perceive.
I'd probably be less irritated by the piercing bonus except that SE has made flying mobs damned near ubiquitous and the blunt bonus on skeletons (which are a pretty atrocious XP mob when you think about it compared to Colibri) is half as much.

1.sam doesnt have to sacrifice 10 acc in the waist slot for it's store tp though.
2.out of curiosity has anyone ever tried a mnk pt on pots?

[Austar2.0]

Alisha, on 31 October 2009 - 01:58 PM, said:

1.sam doesnt have to sacrifice 10 acc in the waist slot for it's store tp though.
2.out of curiosity has anyone ever tried a mnk pt on pots?

1. What?
2. I haven't.

[Aliadim]

Alisha, on 31 October 2009 - 01:58 PM, said:

1.sam doesnt have to sacrifice 10 acc in the waist slot for it's store tp though.
2.out of curiosity has anyone ever tried a mnk pt on pots?

1. What?
2. No, and there is a reason. There is not an area in this game where the pots are close enough together - or spawn rapidly enough - where the exp wouldn't be completely terrible. If you've ever farmed for water, you'll understand.

[Yhelothur]

Alisha, on 31 October 2009 - 01:58 PM, said:

1.sam doesnt have to sacrifice 10 acc in the waist slot for it's store tp though.
2.out of curiosity has anyone ever tried a mnk pt on pots?

1. and
Wat? No job that I know of sacrifices shit in the waist for Store TP. It's usually ACC sacrificed for Haste. What are you on about?

2. No, it's a bad idea. Bones is much much easier, because of the amount of mobs in the areas used, and pots are MUCH more dangerous with -gaIII spells and the like. And yeah, Ro'Maeve Water farming is a great example of why that's a bad idea.

[ZahlSechs]

Cream Soda, on 24 October 2009 - 09:39 AM, said:

Chi blast was NEVER good tbh, just took people a while to realize it. Takes 3 mins of boosting, which DD job isn't going to be able to do 1.5k-2k dmg in a period of 3 minutes? The only time it was actually worth it imo is if your ally was full and rotated mnks in and get more than 1 chi in 3 mins but even then that's anothe rdd vs multiple mnks, not just 1.

You're thinking with nowaday's knowledge and your reasoning is perfect from that point of view, but maybe you should also think how things were very different years ago, how people used to fight even mobs which make us laugh today with more than 18 people. Back then you were avoiding as much as possible (much more than today) giving TP to mobs or even just having players in range of the mob's AoEs. So from that point of view having 2-3 MNKs to cycle in and out of your alliance was allowing a decent amount of constant damage which wasn't generating any TP at all and wasn't putting more stress on the healers.
Honestly I think back then Chi Blast was a good instrument if used correctly, and one of the few chances MNKs had to enter the world of end-game. Boring? Maybe so, but I wanted to talk only about the efficiency of Chi Blast, aside from it being utterly boring or not.

[Jettez]

Get a few mnks together and you can literally Penance lock a mob. It's so much fun.

[Cream Soda]

ZahlSechs, on 19 November 2009 - 03:35 AM, said:

You're thinking with nowaday's knowledge and your reasoning is perfect from that point of view, but maybe you should also think how things were very different years ago, how people used to fight even mobs which make us laugh today with more than 18 people. Back then you were avoiding as much as possible (much more than today) giving TP to mobs or even just having players in range of the mob's AoEs. So from that point of view having 2-3 MNKs to cycle in and out of your alliance was allowing a decent amount of constant damage which wasn't generating any TP at all and wasn't putting more stress on the healers.
Honestly I think back then Chi Blast was a good instrument if used correctly, and one of the few chances MNKs had to enter the world of end-game. Boring? Maybe so, but I wanted to talk only about the efficiency of Chi Blast, aside from it being utterly boring or not.

Note the part where you said 2-3 mnks cycling out. I said it took multiple mnks to stack up to one other DD lol and that the only way chi is going to compete is if you have x number of mnks being swapped in and out vs 1 other dd. 1 mnk chi cannon vs 1 other DD isn't even going to be a contest.

Also: rng, smn, ect for ranged damage. Chi was overrated imo.

[ZahlSechs]

Cream Soda, on 19 November 2009 - 07:49 AM, said:

Chi was overrated imo.

Most likely was. Probably has something to do with the "big numbers addiction" Pathwriter has been talking about in a couple of threads recently.
Still, while overrated, I wouldn't call it completely "useless" (at least, back then)

Everyone in this thread said that they're very happy we don't have to chi blast anymore, I dare to disagree. It's not that I "miss" those days. Just chiblasting everything once every 3 minutes was honestly pretty boring, and it was because we were only doing that.
If ChiBlast was ONE of things we can do and that we use in a couple of fights where it's still particularly effective, then I would honestly be happy because it wouldn't be "our only chance" anymore (like it was back then) but just one of the many options we have at our disposal, it would just create "variety" and I personally like a lot when the game offers you a wide set of choice within the boundaries of the same job.
Under the same point of view I would really love to be able SA DK Footwork on a couple more mobs, and I would like even more options. Maybe it's just me, but I like this kind of highly efficient variety.

Of course, Chiblast isn't "efficient" anymore nowadays, compared to the other options, and that's why we don't use it anymore, rightfully so I guess
I was just saying I wouldn't mind to keep chiblasting if it was just every now and then on a couple of mobs. What I hated about the Chiblasting time is that I wasn't doing anything else than that. Don't know if what I said makes any sense, guess it does not in the end.


Personally on my server MNK situation is not very bright, aside from a couple of exceptions when you say "I have MNK, JOBX, JOBY" the choice almost always goes on one of the other DD jobs, and it's sad because if it's true in some situations that can be reasonable, in many others there just is no rational reason, only habits, wrong "perception" of the job, and I dunno what else, could we call it "prejudice" maybe? Just like Pathwriter said in that other thread of his, articulating the issue much better than I would ever be able to do.

[Alisha]

like i said earlier in the thread i think the addition of nether blast was the begining of the end for chi blast. and also why i think chi blast needs to be improved in terms of damage output. believe it or not not everyone has 3+ lvl 75 jobs. actually now days i think a blue mage spamming heat breath can out do chi blast. meanwhile mnk has all this hp and mnd gear yet no use for it.

[Aliadim]

If you have no use for the gear: Get rid of it. I don't want Chi Blast buffed. You can spew as much BS about "flexibility" that you want, but the fact of the matter is that Chi Blasting is and always will be a boring process. Instead of fixing something that was never really that good in the first place, they should fix how one-handed weapons effect some of our larger DEF mobs.

[shadowdereapz]

Aliadim, on 21 November 2009 - 01:13 PM, said:

If you have no use for the gear: Get rid of it. I don't want Chi Blast buffed. You can spew as much BS about "flexibility" that you want, but the fact of the matter is that Chi Blasting is and always will be a boring process. Instead of fixing something that was never really that good in the first place, they should fix how one-handed weapons effect some of our larger DEF mobs.

I agree.

[Cream Soda]

Aliadim, on 21 November 2009 - 01:13 PM, said:

but the fact of the matter is that Chi Blasting is and always will be a boring process.

I very much so disagree.

Chi blast isn't ALWAYS boring. I have fun soloing Jailer of Fortidue, for exmaple, and to do that, you will need to chi blast. I also have fun boosting in the 3 mins intermission before ballista match starts, and as soon as the match starts, sprint in and chi someone for over 800 dmg.

[brysky]

was messing around in sky tonight in a pug group since i had nothing better to do... did SE mess with the Boost duration timer? it seemed to me that I couldn't get a 12th boost in without it wearing before i could Chi.

i even spammed the /ja menu and still it was running out quicker it seemed.

[Silvra]

I only ever had to participate in a few runs of Chi Blasting an NM to death, but there was a MNK in my LS who when it came time for ANY nm that was all he was allocated to do, it was sad. Its nice to have the Penance ability I agree but it seems that a lvl 75 merit job ability makes a lvl 41 actually useful. And considering that the most Ive ever seen Chi Blast do was up in the 1000+ range(i think its been a while >.>), that amount of damage in 3mins while supporting no other damage (due to boosting) is just silly. Chi Blast needs a buff but not the kind that will make us back into Chi Blast whores. If they adjusted it to do a bit less overall damage(such as when fully boosted) and more rely on MND and take boosting out of the equation then that might be a bit better. Maybe we wouldn't see the 1000+ Chi blast after fully boosted but something like 200-500 ever 3 mins wouldn't be terribly overpowered I think. Penance is fantastic and Chi Blast is fun but for a level 41 ability that usually does 32 damage w/o carrying around a whole set of +MND gear I think and adjustment can be made. To bad SE seems ridiculously lazy and rarely updates old shit.