[Nanako]

Corrderio, on 21 October 2009 - 04:41 PM, said:

It's kind of funny you admit that. I've always been curious how SE could fail so hard with pet jobs in XI considering pet jobs aren't all that uncommon in some major MMOs.

I have yet to see a pet class that works worth a damn in any of the MMO that I've played. What ones have you seen that actually worked to some degree? Whether it be brain dead AI or piss-poor pathing that caused the pet to aggro everything on the planet (hi2u Engineer in Anarchy Online) they've all been broken.

[Aleera]

Deorsa, on 21 October 2009 - 04:07 PM, said:

come on now, smn already got there fix when ACP came out, wheres the love for sam drg pld thf o.O

Are you fucking kidding me? SAM gets their dick sucked every day, with balls cradled safely in hand, by SE. SAM doesn't need a damn thing. GTFO!

SMN, by far, did not get any fix with ACP from getting that body piece. Not by a long shot.

[Corrderio]

I've never played any pet classes in other MMOs, I'm just saying that it isn't that rare of a job so I really can't see why SE ruined BST like they did.

[Layne]

pathwriter, on 21 October 2009 - 10:59 AM, said:

Problem with Avatar's Favor, depending on how it will ultimately work, is that if I do have a Summoner in the group to apply Hastega or Ecliptic Howl or Earthen Ward, they'll have to dismiss Ifrit or Ramuh or whomever. If anything, this becomes more of a limiter than people might believe.

Totally.
How long is Hastega? 3 minutes? Favor would have to peak waaaay before then or at the very least stabilze sans the avatar in order to be worth it. Even a full minute of Lucky DA, Refresh or +DEF is kinda meh imho.
Once you've got to switch Avatars, not counting summoning time and casting time, you're either shortchanging Favor, or going without Buffs for an unnecessary period of time.

I will wait to hold my "lolSMNBuff" til after it's tested.

[Sanders]

Deorsa, on 21 October 2009 - 04:07 PM, said:

come on now, smn already got there fix when ACP came out, wheres the love for sam drg pld thf o.O

Lol, jesus. Target sighted.

SAM : Zanshin, Sekkanoki, Hasso, Seigan, Tachi: Rana, Overwelm, 2H bonus, Soboro Sukehiro, even /DNC if you want to stretch that far

It's easy to break down how each of those items either got needlessly better in later patches or how they needlessly pwoered the job to begin with. Went from run of the mill DD to defacto endgame DD. It doesn't need any help.

I'm not complaining though, because thankfully SE takes the "boost other jobs to match the strong jobs" approach now [remember the rng failpatch?]. And sam has happily set the bar high.

[Deo2]

Nanako, on 21 October 2009 - 05:00 PM, said:

I have yet to see a pet class that works worth a damn in any of the MMO that I've played. What ones have you seen that actually worked to some degree? Whether it be brain dead AI or piss-poor pathing that caused the pet to aggro everything on the planet (hi2u Engineer in Anarchy Online) they've all been broken.

Should have tried Dark Age of Camelot, the game is bleeding with pet classes. Unfortunately, the game is older than FFXI (but at least not as dated as Everquest, although the graphics are pretty close).

[NinjaGorge]

For BST, I am disappointed(though I am happy that they gave BST something but I am just disappointed that it wasn't so great).

For those that are saying "It'd be overpowered if you could use Cactuar's 1000 Needles every 2 minutes", the problem is that those jugs are expensive and they last for 2 minutes.

Not to mention lets compare how strong 1000 needles would be compared to other jobs:

1. In Merit/exp parties, 1k extra damage every "two" minutes isn't big of a deal when SAMs, DRGs, and WARs are busting out 1k damage Penta Thrusts every 30 seconds. Not to mention BST are going to have to throw 10k every 15 minutes just to have a Sabotender so it's very unlikely for BST to use Cactuars in the first place.

2. In end game (HNM and stuff), 1k every 2 minutes is more or less comparable to "other jobs" damage output(SMN, BLM, SCH, PUP). Oh no, BST would actually be useful against HNMs if they could use 1k needles every 2 minutes?

So really, I don't see why not making all of them cost 1 charge would "overpower "BSTs.

Sure everyone and their Chocobo will use the strongest Sic skills everytime but that's the same thing with weapon skills.

So what if BSTs only use 1k needles and/or Dark Spore/Silence Gas everytime they use Sic.

It's the same thing with weapon skills, why use "Vorpal Thrust" when you can just use "Penta Thrust"?

What if they made Penta Thrust "require" 300% TP? That'd suck.

Not that I am completely disappointed, I mean I am happy they finally did something about Sic

Again I am just disappointed on how SE implanted this update.

Summoner update sounds nice, I'm happy about that(even though I don't really play anymore, I have been keeping the account to play around with updates).

We'll have to wait and see on how effective the SMN update is but it sounds like it'd be at least "decent".

Though, I still wanted SMN to obtain Cure I to Cure IV line of spells naturally, it sucks being healer 90% of the time when you play SMN, esp since you're limited to Cure III as /WHM. Cure IV would be nice.



Now next they really need to buff Dancer. IMO I think DNC is even more useless than BST in end game situations . First thing they should do is to allow DNCs to heal outside of parties.

[Aliadim]

Kleiner, on 21 October 2009 - 10:20 AM, said:

BSTs have been begging for an ability to use a pet's WS on command but really.. think about it. Amigo Sabotender able to use 1k needles every 2 minutes on command? not anything SE could allow to happen.

I really needed to quote this. Why would you think that is a bad thing? I can get a few WS's off on a DD job in two minutes. The accumulation of my WS damage is always more than 1k over the course of two minutes. Allowing you to choose the abilities once every two minutes in no way breaks BST.

[alaan]

NinjaGorge, on 21 October 2009 - 07:45 PM, said:

For BST, I am disappointed(though I am happy that they gave BST something but I am just disappointed that it wasn't so great).

For those that are saying "It'd be overpowered if you could use Cactuar's 1000 Needles every 2 minutes", the problem is that those jugs are expensive and they last for 2 minutes.

Not to mention lets compare how strong 1000 needles would be compared to other jobs:

1. In Merit/exp parties, 1k extra damage every "two" minutes isn't big of a deal when SAMs, DRGs, and WARs are busting out 1k damage Penta Thrusts every 30 seconds. Not to mention BST are going to have to throw 10k every 15 minutes just to have a Sabotender so it's very unlikely for BST to use Cactuars in the first place.

2. In end game (HNM and stuff), 1k every 2 minutes is more or less comparable to "other jobs" damage output(SMN, BLM, SCH, PUP). Oh no, BST would actually be useful against HNMs if they could use 1k needles every 2 minutes?

So really, I don't see why not making all of them cost 1 charge would "overpower "BSTs.

Sure everyone and their Chocobo will use the strongest Sic skills everytime but that's the same thing with weapon skills.

So what if BSTs only use 1k needles and/or Dark Spore/Silence Gas everytime they use Sic.

It's the same thing with weapon skills, why use "Vorpal Thrust" when you can just use "Penta Thrust"?

What if they made Penta Thrust "require" 300% TP? That'd suck.

Not that I am completely disappointed, I mean I am happy they finally did something about Sic

Again I am just disappointed on how SE implanted this update.

Summoner update sounds nice, I'm happy about that(even though I don't really play anymore, I have been keeping the account to play around with updates).

We'll have to wait and see on how effective the SMN update is but it sounds like it'd be at least "decent".

Though, I still wanted SMN to obtain Cure I to Cure IV line of spells naturally, it sucks being healer 90% of the time when you play SMN, esp since you're limited to Cure III as /WHM. Cure IV would be nice.



Now next they really need to buff Dancer. IMO I think DNC is even more useless than BST in end game situations . First thing they should do is to allow DNCs to heal outside of parties.

Just wanted to point out that for a bunch of fights, namely Fafhoog, Ein, Dynamis... 1k needles would be useless, AOE=wipe. So BSTs best tool for dmg is like... garbage for at least some important fights.

[Notacka]

Kleiner, on 21 October 2009 - 10:20 AM, said:

Full Sic recasts will likely affect the charge timer for Ready too, making it 1:40. Dark spore is Funguar's best move, but it's not exactly broken.. maybe SE will monitor the results, then reduce the charge numbers for heavy hitters like dark spore, but not for !k needles (which is probably like 5 charges already)

Sorry man it says 3 is the max amount of charges. If you don't lose charges when you use the move then it would be a good update. If you do then I don't find this useful. I like the smn update though. Be nice for Dynamis when you got to nuke NMs.

[Nanako]

Deo2, on 21 October 2009 - 07:24 PM, said:

Should have tried Dark Age of Camelot, the game is bleeding with pet classes. Unfortunately, the game is older than FFXI (but at least not as dated as Everquest, although the graphics are pretty close).

I played a Necromancer in DAOC ages ago when that class was released. It was a prime example of how not to make a pet class (as it was after release). Pet would often just run off into the sunset, causing the caster to leave shade form with almost no HP and basically instantly dying. Then they nerfed the hell out of the class a few times so they couldn't set ground targets, or use items which broke a few quests. Then there was the whole matter of many items being useless because the stats wouldn't transfer to the pet. And the pet lagging behind and the player dropping out of shade form just from walking. And the list goes on for that class.

Granted they have fixed the class quite a bit since then, but it was a broken mess for a while.

[Jinfire]

Tikki, on 21 October 2009 - 02:18 PM, said:

Ah, yes, this does worry me. The wording is that it gets stronger until you dismiss the avatar. But it doesn't tell us if the effect stays after and for how long.

Unfortunatly it says people have to be in range of the avatar to get the bonus so Im assuming once the avatar is gone, poof goes the buff.

Now I agree Smns will have to decide to keep switching avatars for buffs or keep one out for a single good buff + added dps. Personally I dont think its all to bad. I also think its not to bad if you can keep the avatar out without mana being ticked away. The ironic thing is if smns DO use the favor, and it it gives them no perp cost this will mean smns will be more incline to heal. Since they arent busy summoning/unsummoning and buff spaming. they would just send the avatar in, rage/ward then... heal lol

Not to mention this makes Smn + Cor + Brd perfectly viable in a tp burn (given the smn is willing to heal but with the extra mp and time it shouldnt be an issue) Also yeah sure there are better combonations of jobs for the ideal party but options wont hurt. Smns can refresh now, which can lead to a ton of possiblities especially in blm parties, diablos with refresh and mab and can dps too. Its nice and better then nothing

[pathwriter]

You know, with the exception of merit parties (which half the jobs in the game are excluded from by player stupidity -- my Monk can kick the ass of the majority of Samurai I see getting invited, but I can literally sit in Whitegate for 72 hours without a nibble unless I change to Bard), I've yet to run into a situation where Summoner can really be excluded. Leveling that godawful job to 37, I was a DD, buffer, and healer, just as one would expect of Summoner/White Mage. My parties welcomed the additions that my avatars could bring in terms of damage and an occasional buff. As I have leveled jobs through the middle levels, I've often partied with Summoners who are brought in for Hastega, Rolling Thunder, and some additional damage via Rage pacts. Maybe Alexander is weird. I won't dispute that Summoners are down near the bottom of the list of jobs that are likely to be invited to any given party, just a step above Beastmasters and Puppetmasters, neither of which should be overlooked, but it is possible to get a party and play Summoner as a Summoner. I wonder how many of you are still bemoaning how cruddy the job was prior to Summoning Skill being meaningful and the splitting of Rage and Ward.

I'm not going to turn my nose up at extra buffs, but as with Composure, Yonin, and Seigan, we're going to have to see them in action before we're really able to make judgments about them.

[Auraeon]

So like...

Does this mean SCH in tank party is going to be replaced by SMN in tank party if the Favors max out quickly? Since SMN will have virtually everything SCH has (albeit, ever so slightly weaker) plus Haste, and now Refreshga...


Fenrir buffs + Ifrit's Favor = SMN replacing COR in merit parties (that already have a BRD, since no one merits without a BRD anyway, even with a COR)? Probably not on this one, since EXP roll probably wins out in any competition against offensive buffs.

[Eternalkaiser]

@ningeorge

but cant you see if 1k neededs was on 2 min timer how that could get a liitle stupid. 1k dmg to a solo target all the time........there are tons of stuff you could just rotate like 20 bst and do 20k dmg ever two mins on
(pw lolAv it be funny to see that a new way to beat av would be 1000 neeedles rotation from bst lol ) but still anything w/o a limit to players you could jsut roatat bst in and drop 20k on a mob and hold that mob with just a holding party while bst recover
thats assuming nothing resist 1k needles and even if they did let it be 2mins ppl would start to do this kind of stuff and all SE would do is make certain mobs resist 1k needles like soul eater lol then you all would bitch more.

im just saying i love this for bst who cares if its 6 mins what they need to do is take away the timer you have on jug pets and make it unlimited unless they die. the point you make about other dd is only relavent in meritng
on anything that matters id take a no melee 1k needles over a melee for get the 2 melee and blms if they could just spam 1k needles ever 2 mins right? cuz the shit that take melee dmg welll and mage dmg well it would still do 1k on
i hate to bring up AV but still you get the point and see how it could be broke right? all im saying is this is good its not a bad thing

[Kleiner]

Quote

I have yet to see a pet class that works worth a damn in any of the MMO that I've played.

*shrug* WoW does their pet classes pretty well. Warlock and Hunter are both well balanced in PvE, if not a little OP in PvP if you can't survive their first barrage of cooldown skills.

Quote

I really needed to quote this. Why would you think that is a bad thing? I can get a few WS's off on a DD job in two minutes. The accumulation of my WS damage is always more than 1k over the course of two minutes. Allowing you to choose the abilities once every two minutes in no way breaks BST.

Would it break BST? No. Will SE allow it? No. This is Squeenix, they -FEAR- giving any pet class too much. they are not gonna give you free Thousand Needles and dark spore. They aren't. They made this convoluted and silly because they are Squeenix and it's what they do. There's a possibility SE will balance it a bit, but i'm not really holding my breath.

the only possible saving grace for this is abilities like Dark Spore having an exceptional TP modifier making a 6 minute Dark Spore better than 3x Frog Kicks.




As for summoner, I don't know. SMN applies alot more than just the buffs. In my linkshell before I left the game recently, a summoner by the name of Atton always managed to amaze me. His SMN was, in every sense of the word, geared perfectly. He had all of the possible gear he could want, he had reached the BP reduction timer, and he had every peice of Pet M.AB/M.ACC he cold get, including quite a few peices of Expensionette augment gear. The damage his merit BPs did was amazing. With Fervor, it's possible for SMNs to take a more direct approach to DDing. With the reduced cost of perpetuation from Favor, it's not going to be hard for a SMN to keep their pet out as long as they like. Ifrit's increased D.A and shiva's increased M.AB (if they affect the Avatar, which they damn well better) could provide great bonuses to AV DDing abilities. TP greatly affects a SMN's 75 BPs, and having virtually free AVs gives them time to let AVs stay out andm elee, all the wile granting the party a buff. I think SE is trying to steer SMN away from the buff-whore constantly spamming over to new avatars every 15 seconds.


also,

Quote

They should add a third roll slot for COR, specifically for a single pet roll that doesn't interfere with player rolls

Yes.

[Purely]

so if the cost of the avatars becomes almost nothing to keep them out, would some of the carby prime weapons be worth using more?