[Nameless]

Yea, I am not sure about all the hype on Amano as well, and this is coming from someone who knows the game mechanic inside and out regarding melee. It doesn't give you a 5 hit build and the WS, disaccounting weak mobs, isn't spectacular especially against HNM. IMO, apoc has a more direct impact on drk than amano on sam in term of playing style and overall performance.

Comparing all the non-relic two hand DDs, I don't think SAM is really that overpowering, at least from what I have seen, and I have seen some great SAMs. They are very well balanced in term of able to deal with weak or hard mobs, but excel in neither. On weaker mobs, scythe would do better than their 1 hit ws since their ftp, even with hagun, is at the range of 1.85-2.4. Compare to guillotine's total ftp of 3.875, it is weaker even with the 75% str mode. Not to mention the higher regular hits damage and base weapon damage. On HNM, where ppl think SAMs shine, Drk can equally do as well as long as you pick the right weapon to use. SAMs got the advantage of 1 hit weapon skills that have hidden ratio bonus, and the nature of the first hit having huge acc bonus makes them great. However, as DRK, a well geared and merited GS setup can do just as well, if not better than SAM in those situations. Spinning slash is slightly weaker than Gekko, due to 150% ratio bonus vs 200% ratio bonus, and hagun + overwhelm just about bring the ftp to close to 2.5 of spinning slash. But as drk, you get attack trait and more att equip options to even out the ratio bonus difference and berserk (if they /war which they should on HNM). In addition, GS usually have a higher base damage despite slower (assuming Naglering). Ungimped meditate can be offset by well used LR (full recast) in term of generating TP. So the difference is SE. If you use it properly, you beat them, if you don't use it at all, they beat you or tie. As a drk, I have rarely been outparsed by SAM if at all. In dynamis, merits, HNM, nyzul, limbus, zerg etc.

To me, what is overpowering is Warriors. On weak mobs they are unbelievably broken. Retaliation shouldn't exist in this game. On HNM i honestly don't think any melee job is better than DRK if used right.

Just my 2 cents.

[Chriscoffey]

lol yeah retaliation is what makes my war/sam with rune chopper completely broke BUT that is ONLY if you have hate which will vary. The JA isn't meant for everyone to be used at once so in a sense it isn't broke unless you are the one having or keeping hate. I would always have hate so i would be swinging and self skillchaining on my war/sam alot with the full haste set. I have saw quite a few great sam/war and i still go back to the general idea that without buffs drk has a very hard time to even come close to a sam but when they are buffed and the right person using the job they are very powerful. I have both jobs as to not be bias and I play aggressive as i can. I really wish i could just jump around servers and play with the rest of you as i like competition and better skill because most people suck. I can't tell you how many times I'm hitting my macro before i even get 100 TP to blast another WS out and i see people holding TP in merit parties. I will literally get about 2 out before they seem to get their one going. I guess one could say its lag or something but still speed is another factor in merit parties that defines how well you do in terms of successful parse.

[Nameless]

Totally agreed. Drk is very buff depended job while sam is the most consistent thanks to the ratio bonus and 1 hit ws and meditate making them very able to adjust to all mobs or situation. When I don't get as much buff in average to difficult situation, I usually go with GS and do pretty well as drk. I just have a very very specific GS build that is great in those situations. Tho, as much as I am trying to sell it, it is still playing the drk job trying to be a sam, but thankfully it is really very comparable both mathematically and in practice. Additionally, I would love to play with great players from each server as well, just like to be able to learn more.

[Taint]

Amano isn't that great I agree, in the right hands I'm sure its nice though. Soboro+Yoichi SAM is the broken combo.

[Vawtwee]

Judging by your gear Taint I would say that if you were to upgrade Amano it would have no problem keeping up with your drk. I play frequently with loldeemos, who has just about everything a SAM could acquire, and he has beaten apoc drks in several situations, and even a well geared gungnir drg at bird camp. Of course it's possible to make the argument that they were bad apoc users and lolgungnir, but I didn't believe Amano was as powerful as it is until I saw Deemos fully play. Trust me, you won't be disappointed with it.

This isn't to say that amano >>>> apoc, but rather the two are fairly equal in terms of potential damage, HNMs excluded.

[Chriscoffey]

Believe it or not most apocalypse owners are just that even with the much less smaller amount of them out there very few understand the weapon but i agree. I still think a non buffed drk/sam with apoc will get their ass handed to them without the proper buffs compared to sam/war amano. I think each is situational but with full haste drk kicks sam in the nuts lol.

[Deemos]

Vawtwee, on 27 October 2009 - 08:17 PM, said:

Judging by your gear Taint I would say that if you were to upgrade Amano it would have no problem keeping up with your drk. I play frequently with loldeemos, who has just about everything a SAM could acquire, and he has beaten apoc drks in several situations, and even a well geared gungnir drg at bird camp. Of course it's possible to make the argument that they were bad apoc users and lolgungnir, but I didn't believe Amano was as powerful as it is until I saw Deemos fully play. Trust me, you won't be disappointed with it.

This isn't to say that amano >>>> apoc, but rather the two are fairly equal in terms of potential damage, HNMs excluded.

This being said, please note that Amano is shocking overpowered JUST when your gear supports it. I dinged into it, with basically 18 haste, as much as accuracy any other sam had (askar must have for the 6hit) and the chance of double light, gimping the dmg on HNMs. I finished it nearly 1 year ago and now i've reached a point i have nothing left to get but Bow and game dyin' etc i won't get it; but now i can say that the gear you have supporting your relic is what really matters. And this applies to most relics if not all. And about Apoc, if SE didn't announce 14 i'd be working on it already. Because i know, i love my drk and i love how i tank / kite / dmg so easily, having fun, with it.

[UNCTGTG]

Deemos, on 27 October 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

This being said, please note that Amano is shocking overpowered JUST when your gear supports it. I dinged into it, with basically 18 haste, as much as accuracy any other sam had (askar must have for the 6hit) and the chance of double light, gimping the dmg on HNMs. I finished it nearly 1 year ago and now i've reached a point i have nothing left to get but Bow and game dyin' etc i won't get it; but now i can say that the gear you have supporting your relic is what really matters. And this applies to most relics if not all. And about Apoc, if SE didn't announce 14 i'd be working on it already. Because i know, i love my drk and i love how i tank / kite / dmg so easily, having fun, with it.

We need to merit again deemos.