[Aliadim]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 02:55 PM, said:

Why?

Because there's a "60% of the time" that I need to worry about.

[Cream Soda]

Aliadim, on 29 October 2009 - 02:58 PM, said:

Because there's a "60% of the time" that I need to worry about.

And that's why you make 2 sets. One for 60% of the time and one for 40% of the time, rather than one universal set.

[Aliadim]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 02:59 PM, said:

And that's why you make 2 sets. One for 60% of the time and one for 40% of the time, rather than one universal set.

True enough, I suppose.

[azagarth1]

cure waltz - for soloing /dnc!

[shadowdereapz]

azagarth1, on 29 October 2009 - 03:09 PM, said:

cure waltz - for soloing /dnc!

lol.....

[Aliadim]

azagarth1, on 29 October 2009 - 03:09 PM, said:

cure waltz - for soloing /dnc!

If you really needed a solo piece, the 7 EVA and 4% phys. reduction would work better. Although, on that note, Byakko's Haidate would still be a better choice than either when /DNC.

[shadowdereapz]

I think I might have figured out what "Conserve TP" might be..... might do the same thing to DNC TP Abilities as "Conserve MP" does to a mage's spells..... just a theory.

Possibly? Kinda makes sense to me. Can't think of anything else that could mean.

[Aliadim]

That actually makes a lot of sense. But really, it's all conjecture. We have to wait and see.

[pathwriter]

If Conserve TP were to operate precisely as Conserve MP does, the overall savings from Conserve TP +5 would be ~2 TP per 100. You'd easily be better off with Store TP, even if it would be amusing to see the occasional proc.

[SolAcension]

Well, I tried to seriously think of something good I might put on these for monk. It's just not working out. Instead , I'll mock Pathwriter's want of to make these into weaponskill pants for monk, by qouting him at himself . "Who the fuck cares about weaponskills for monk anyway."

[pathwriter]

Yeah, and what's the context of that quotation? Since you feel the need to be clever, though, how about you explain to the class the breakdown of Monk damage as split between regular attacks and weaponskills.

[Oulanbator]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 02:44 PM, said:

...

Once again, your math seems logic but makes no sense at all. So, let's take a look at it again.

1 Tp doesn't make things simple. Make it 5Tp/punch, so 10 TP/atk round

Basic Mnk (15 Kicks)
10+(5*0.15) = 10.75 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with Brutal
10+(5*0.15)+(5*0.05) = 11 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with 5kick pants (no brutal)
10+(5*0.20) = 11 avg Tp/atk round
(so basically the same Tp/atk round as the brutal)

Monk with 5 kick pants and brutal
10+(5*0.20)+(5*0.05) = 11.25 avg Tp/atk round

So, 5% DA and 5% Kick attacks give the same avg tp/atk round, and stacking both pushes this even farther.


Maths part II: factoring the haste in
Setup 1 (haidate) 24% haste (turban/BB/haidate/usu feet), 15% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 4.4s delay

Setup 2 (kick pants) 22% haste (turban/BB/kick pants/usu feet), 20% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 4.5s delay

10 attack round needed to reach 100 Tp

Setup 1:
10-((10*0.15)-(10*0.05))*4.4 = 8*4.4 = 35.2s

Setup 2:
10-((10*0.2)-(10*0.05))*4.4 = 7.5*4.5 = 33.7s

Your 5 Kick attacks translate into 1.5s, or into tping 4.2% faster than an Haidate (and definitely better than usu pants in a non full usu setup).
I don't see any reason not to use these pants over Haidate, at least when Focus is up.

[shadowdereapz]

xD
And, yes if "Conserve-TP" functioned like "Conserve-MP" I doubt it would be worth anything at all.

I only see 3 possible options on these for monk.

acc+7/haste+3 if you lack Byakko's Haidate
acc+7/att+7 for Asuran Fists
7 eva/4% phys dmg - legs for soloing/tanking

Honestly, i'm looking at acc+7 /haste+3% for my Drg's TP build since I lack Homam legs.

[pathwriter]

Where is your Accuracy magically capped? What are you fighting with that insipid combination of augments?

[Cream Soda]

Oulanbator, on 29 October 2009 - 04:44 PM, said:

Once again, your math seems logic but makes no sense at all. So, let's take a look at it again.

1 Tp doesn't make things simple. Make it 5Tp/punch, so 10 TP/atk round

Basic Mnk (15 Kicks)
10+(5*0.15) = 10.75 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with Brutal
10+(5*0.15)+(5*0.05) = 11 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with 5kick pants (no brutal)
10+(5*0.20) = 11 avg Tp/atk round
(so basically the same Tp/atk round as the brutal)

Monk with 5 kick pants and brutal
10+(5*0.20)+(5*0.05) = 11.25 avg Tp/atk round

So, 5% DA and 5% Kick attacks give the same avg tp/atk round, and stacking both pushes this even farther.

You just did the same math as I did and guess what
11.25 > 11 They're not the same.

11.25/11 = 2.27% increase
now let's to back to my numbers
2.25/2 = 2.27% increase
We did the same math, and they are not the same number of TP. It doesn't matter if we put 5tp per hit, 1 tp per hit, 100 tp/hit 1000 tp/hit, over 9000 tp per hit. The % difference will be the same in amount of tp gained.

Quote

Maths part II: factoring the haste in
Setup 1 (haidate) 24% haste (turban/BB/haidate/usu feet), 15% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 4.4s delay

Setup 2 (kick pants) 22% haste (turban/BB/kick pants/usu feet), 20% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 4.5s delay

10 attack round needed to reach 100 Tp

Setup 1:
10-((10*0.15)-(10*0.05))*4.4 = 8*4.4 = 35.2s

Setup 2:
10-((10*0.2)-(10*0.05))*4.4 = 7.5*4.5 = 33.7s

Your 5 Kick attacks translate into 1.5s, or into tping 4.2% faster than an Haidate (and definitely better than usu pants in a non full usu setup).
I don't see any reason not to use these pants over Haidate, at least when Focus is up.

This math couldn't be any more wrong.
A) the % increase on kick attacks AND double attack are AVERAGES, which means sometimes you will proc under and some times you will proc over. meaning your tp won't line up like that every time.
Let's say the % increase works the way you say it does, you're still wrong.

Your haste values are incorrect. You don't have march on? you don't have haste?
March + haste makes the haste values go from 24 and 22 to 48 and 50

348 x .5 = 2.9s/attack round
348 x .52 = 3.016s/attack round.

So we're getting 5.4tp/hit?
Haidate: 2(1.05) = 2.1 punches, .15 kicks per round = 2..25 attacks per attack round on average
Kick pants: 2.1 punches, .2 kicks per round = 2..3 attacks per round.

Edit: forgot to multiply a number here
100/(2.25 x 5.4) = 9 attack rounds to 100 tp
100/(2.3 x 5.4) = 9 attack rounds to 100 tp.



9 (2.9s) = 26.1seconds
9 (3.016s) = 27.144 seconds


A) Your math is wrong can't work in kick attacks like that (or DA ect) in your expected attack rounds to 100
Even if that WAS true, you STILL get less tp than kitty pants, provided you're not soloing (see how haste changed things, and you can do the math for double march as well, will be a larger gap)
C) You're entire model ONLY showed how fast one can get to 100 tp and completely ignored all the more damage DoTwise that haidate get (even before adding the acc)
D) Those pants suck and if you get them you should feel bad (especially if you want to use them over haidate).


Edit: left out a number

[shadowdereapz]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 05:39 PM, said:

D) Those pants suck and if you get them you should feel bad (especially if you want to use them over haidate).

My thoughts exactly.

[Oulanbator]

Your maths are wrong from start

You compared brutal to pants and conclude 5DA > 5Kick. Honestly, how can you say that when the proc rate and the Tp return is exactly the same ? You can 5% extra attacks no matter what, be these kicks or double attack or spitting on the monster for TP... it's the same number of added attack +5 attacks every 100 attacks. You don't even need to do maths to understand this.

However, you made the following maths to prove you were right, but you are using two different equations...

Quote

2(1.05) = 2.1 punches, .15 kicks = 2.25 tp/attack round
2 punches, .2 kicks = 2.2 tp/attack round

Since your formulas can barely be read, I typed them again with the proper "spelling":
brutal: (2*1.05)+0.15 = 2.25
pants: 2+0.2 = 2.2

How can you compare two things by doing two different equations ?
So, maybe we calculated the same "increase", but since your additions are wrong, I don't see why it should matter.

Now, you're also talking about my values being incorrect. But seriously, read your shit before you post random numbers.

Quote

Your haste values are incorrect. You don't have march on? you don't have haste?
March + haste makes the haste values go from 24 and 22 to 48 and 50

348 x .5 = 2.9s/attack round
348 x .52 = 3.016s/attack round.

So we're getting 5.4tp/hit?
Haidate: 2(1.05) = 2.1 punches, .15 kicks per round = 2..25 attacks per attack round on average
Kick pants: 2.1 punches, .2 kicks per round = 2..3 attacks per round.

100/2.25 = 45 attack rounds to 100 tp
100/2.3 = 44 attack rounds to 100 tp.

45 (2.9s) = 130.5 seconds
44 (3.016s) = 132.704 seconds

Looks at the part about haste: 45 attack rounds to reach 100 Tp... Wtf, do you even play monk ? With 10 Tp/atk round, we're talking about 450 Tp here. 130s to Ws.... more than 2 minutes... that's haste, not slow dude.


Please, read your stuff a second time, wait tomorrow if you're drunk, because your math makes no sense at all.

[Cream Soda]

"how can you say that when the proc rate and the Tp return is exactly the same ?"
because its not the same.


Double attack can proc on punches and no kicks

You punch how many times per round? TWICE

2 punches at 5% proc rate = 2.1 punches

You get .15 kicks from an attack round

Total number of attacks 2.1 + .15 there is no formula its arithmetic. 2.1 + .15 = 2.25 attack rounds


2 punches 0% DA
.2% chance at a kick

2 + .2 = 2.2 attack rounds

2.25 > 2.2

5% da gives more tp

As for my math, forgot to multiply the number of attack rounds w/ the tp/attack round, which is why i got so many attack rounds to 100 tp, now i've edited it and corrected it. Haidate win by more than before seeing as they get 100 tp in the same number of attack rounds.

[Cream Soda]

Oulanbator, on 29 October 2009 - 06:16 PM, said:

Your maths are wrong from start

You compared brutal to pants and conclude 5DA > 5Kick. Honestly, how can you say that when the proc rate and the Tp return is exactly the same ? You can 5% extra attacks no matter what, be these kicks or double attack or spitting on the monster for TP... it's the same number of added attack +5 attacks every 100 attacks. You don't even need to do maths to understand this.

However, you made the following maths to prove you were right, but you are using two different equations...

Since your formulas can barely be read, I typed them again with the proper "spelling":
brutal: (2*1.05)+0.15 = 2.25
pants: 2+0.2 = 2.2

How can you compare two things by doing two different equations ?
So, maybe we calculated the same "increase", but since your additions are wrong, I don't see why it should matter.

Now, you're also talking about my values being incorrect. But seriously, read your shit before you post random numbers.




Looks at the part about haste: 45 attack rounds to reach 100 Tp... Wtf, do you even play monk ? With 10 Tp/atk round, we're talking about 450 Tp here. 130s to Ws.... more than 2 minutes... that's haste, not slow dude.


Please, read your stuff a second time, wait tomorrow if you're drunk, because your math makes no sense at all.

Already addressed and fixed this and now that it is fixed, haidate win by even more. I forgot to multiply the number of attack rounds w/ the tp/hit.

2.25 attack rounds and 2.3 average attack rounds

5.4 TP/hit

5.4 x 2.25 x 8 attack rounds = 97tp
5.4 x 2.3 x 8 = 99 tp

You need to go into the 9th attack round for BOTH to hit 100 tp. They get tp in the same number of attack rounds, and you have less delay w/ the haidate.

[Cream Soda]

By the way, I don't drink.