[Cream Soda]

Well, seeing as long as he was sitting here in this thread after I posted, he must not have a problem w/ my revised math since he left w/o replying.

[Kyte]

Aliadim, on 29 October 2009 - 04:23 PM, said:

If you really needed a solo piece, the 7 EVA and 4% phys. reduction would work better. Although, on that note, Byakko's Haidate would still be a better choice than either when /DNC.

Could macro in the -5 Waltz TP cost and Conserve TP option; nothing's forcing you to full time them if you went in this direction.

[Austar2.0]

Oulanbator, on 29 October 2009 - 06:16 PM, said:

Your maths are wrong from start

You compared brutal to pants and conclude 5DA > 5Kick. Honestly, how can you say that when the proc rate and the Tp return is exactly the same ? You can 5% extra attacks no matter what, be these kicks or double attack or spitting on the monster for TP... it's the same number of added attack +5 attacks every 100 attacks. You don't even need to do maths to understand this.

However, you made the following maths to prove you were right, but you are using two different equations...

Since your formulas can barely be read, I typed them again with the proper "spelling":
brutal: (2*1.05)+0.15 = 2.25
pants: 2+0.2 = 2.2

How can you compare two things by doing two different equations ?
So, maybe we calculated the same "increase", but since your additions are wrong, I don't see why it should matter.

Now, you're also talking about my values being incorrect. But seriously, read your shit before you post random numbers.




Looks at the part about haste: 45 attack rounds to reach 100 Tp... Wtf, do you even play monk ? With 10 Tp/atk round, we're talking about 450 Tp here. 130s to Ws.... more than 2 minutes... that's haste, not slow dude.


Please, read your stuff a second time, wait tomorrow if you're drunk, because your math makes no sense at all.

Also, don't forget your punches are going to hit harder than your kicks to start with. Unless you use dunes, which you shouldn't be outside of Footwork.

[Oulanbator]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 06:59 PM, said:

By the way, I don't drink.

Yeah, you seem to act like a machine. That's sad because we both wasted time due to your inability to communicate and explain things.
A simple phrase like "Double attack can proc twice per round, but kick can only process once" would have solved the problem in no time. I don't know why you had to pull out the maths to explain this, but next time you want to explain something, try to think about words before maths


Anyways, I made the math again with the revamped DA, and I think you're over-exaggerating the difference.

Basic Mnk (15 Kicks)
10+(5*0.15) = 10.75 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with Brutal
10+(5*0.15)+(5*0.05)*2 = 11.25 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with 5kick pants (no brutal)
10+(5*0.20) = 11 avg Tp/atk round
(ok 5 DA > 5 Kick)

Monk with 5 kick pants and brutal
10+(5*0.20)+(5*0.05) = 11.5 avg Tp/atk round


Setup 1 (haidate) 24% haste (turban/BB/haidate/usu feet), 15% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 3s delay
Setup 2 (kick pants) 22% haste (turban/BB/kick pants/usu feet), 20% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 3.1s delay

10 attack round needed to reach 100 Tp

Haste only
Setup 1: 10-((5*0.15)-(5*0.05)*2)*3 = 8.75*3.6 = 31.5s
Setup 2: 10-((5*0.2)-(5*0.05)*2)*3.1 = 8.5*3.7 = 31.45s

March II + Haste
Setup 1: 10-((5*0.15)-(5*0.05)*2)*3 = 8.75*3 = 26.25s
Setup 2: 10-((5*0.2)-(5*0.05)*2)*3.1 = 8.5*3.1 = 26.35s

Double March + Haste
Setup 1: 10-((5*0.15)-(5*0.05)*2)*3 = 8.75*2.5 = 21.8s
Setup 2: 10-((5*0.2)-(5*0.05)*2)*3.1 = 8.5*2.6 = 22.1s

I won't call this a tie because shit is situational (but to be honest I'm really tempted to call this a tie). Kick attack pants are 0.5s faster when you only have haste. If you add one march, haidate becomes 0.05s faster, and under double march, haidate becomes 0.7s faster.
We're talking of less than 1s difference here, because no one should be able to see a difference at this lv. I don't see how the kick pants cannot be alternatives to Haidate for players lacking these.


Ps: reaching 97 or 99 Tp is exactly the same as you still need one more attack round to get your ws off.

Pps: thanks for explaining the difference between kicks and DA.... but next time you want to explain something, take 30s to think and make it fucking simple goddammit

[Austar2.0]

Oulanbator, on 29 October 2009 - 07:34 PM, said:

Yeah, you seem to act like a machine. That's sad because we both wasted time due to your inability to communicate and explain things.
A simple phrase like "Double attack can proc twice per round, but kick can only process once" would have solved the problem in no time. I don't know why you had to pull out the maths to explain this, but next time you want to explain something, try to think about words before maths


Anyways, I made the math again with the revamped DA, and I think you're over-exaggerating the difference.

Basic Mnk (15 Kicks)
10+(5*0.15) = 10.75 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with Brutal
10+(5*0.15)+(5*0.05)*2 = 11.25 avg Tp/atk round

Monk with 5kick pants (no brutal)
10+(5*0.20) = 11 avg Tp/atk round
(ok 5 DA > 5 Kick)

Monk with 5 kick pants and brutal
10+(5*0.20)+(5*0.05) = 11.5 avg Tp/atk round


Setup 1 (haidate) 24% haste (turban/BB/haidate/usu feet), 15% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 3s delay
Setup 2 (kick pants) 22% haste (turban/BB/kick pants/usu feet), 20% kick attacks, 5% DA
5.4 tp/hit, 3.1s delay

10 attack round needed to reach 100 Tp

Haste only
Setup 1: 10-((5*0.15)-(5*0.05)*2)*3 = 8.75*3.6 = 31.5s
Setup 2: 10-((5*0.2)-(5*0.05)*2)*3.1 = 8.5*3.7 = 31.45s

March II + Haste
Setup 1: 10-((5*0.15)-(5*0.05)*2)*3 = 8.75*3 = 26.25s
Setup 2: 10-((5*0.2)-(5*0.05)*2)*3.1 = 8.5*3.1 = 26.35s

Double March + Haste
Setup 1: 10-((5*0.15)-(5*0.05)*2)*3 = 8.75*2.5 = 21.8s
Setup 2: 10-((5*0.2)-(5*0.05)*2)*3.1 = 8.5*2.6 = 22.1s

I won't call this a tie because shit is situational (but to be honest I'm really tempted to call this a tie). Kick attack pants are 0.5s faster when you only have haste. If you add one march, haidate becomes 0.05s faster, and under double march, haidate becomes 0.7s faster.
We're talking of less than 1s difference here, because no one should be able to see a difference at this lv. I don't see how the kick pants cannot be alternatives to Haidate for players lacking these.


Ps: reaching 97 or 99 Tp is exactly the same as you still need one more attack round to get your ws off.

Pps: thanks for explaining the difference between kicks and DA.... but next time you want to explain something, take 30s to think and make it fucking simple goddammit

Hey dude, do what you want. It's your 10 bucks. But seriously, 5 kick attacks won't beat 5% haste, since you get more attacks in, resulting in a higher increase in Double Attacks AND Kick Attacks. Don't even need to do math to see that.

[Cream Soda]

97 never equals 99, sorry. Exact same is exact same, anything else is different. And that's just in how often they ws anyays, haidate will do a fucking ton more for your DoT, there is no reason to wear the kick attacks pants (even if they did save you one attack to 100 tp, still would be no reason, only applies to the WS portion of your dmg 30%, where as haidate has more benefit for DoT the 70% portion of your damage)

[Cream Soda]

You're ONLY looking at ws frequency, ignoring everything else.

[Austar2.0]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 07:40 PM, said:

You're ONLY looking at ws frequency, ignoring everything else.

Word. Was wondering when someone else would have said something about that.

[Cream Soda]

K let's assume capped acc, no haste no march AND capped acc, byakko's wins in DoT

53 dmg/punch, 35 dmg/kick. Assume 5 fstr
58 dmg/punch, 40 dmg/kick.

brutal
(58 x 2.1) + (40 x .15) = 127.8 DMG/attack round

Brutal + 5 kick attacks
(58 x 2.1) + (40 x .2) = 129.8


129.8/127.7 = 1.56% increase to DoT.

2 haste gives 2% DoT at 0% haste

24% haste
2/(100-24) = 2.63% increase

NO haste no march capped acc and byakko's still wins in DoT
2.63 > 1.56

and remember DoT accounts for 70% of a mnk's dmg


Now let's look at 1 march 1 haste
2/(100-50) = 4% increase to DoT

4 > 1.56

2 marces
2/(100-59) = 4.87% increase in DoT

[Oulanbator]

Austar2.0, on 29 October 2009 - 07:38 PM, said:

But seriously, 5 kick attacks won't beat 5% haste, since you get more attacks in, resulting in a higher increase in Double Attacks AND Kick Attacks. Don't even need to do math to see that.

Really valid point, thanks for the input. Hey, I was just asking a question to see if these pants could be a decent alternative, I never claimed these were the new ultimate Mnk pants.
Dunno why this guy started shitting maths all over the boards, because he could have explained this simply in 3 lines like you just did.

[Cream Soda]

I explained it in one line

Quote

D) Those pants suck and if you get them you should feel bad (especially if you want to use them over haidate).

Focus up, focus down, capped acc, only 5% haste total, doesn't matter. Those pants are never better than haidate.

[Austar2.0]

Oulanbator, on 29 October 2009 - 07:51 PM, said:

Really valid point, thanks for the input. Hey, I was just asking a question to see if these pants could be a decent alternative, I never claimed these were the new ultimate Mnk pants.
Dunno why this guy started shitting maths all over the boards, because he could have explained this simply in 3 lines like you just did.

Way I see it, if you don't have Byakko's, go +7 acc and 3% haste unless you're going for usukane already. The acc alone would beat 5% kicks in a uncapped situation.

[fillerbunny9]

because this topic was already dealt with, on the front page no less, here: http://killingifrit....wo-haste-pants/

[Austar2.0]

There's posts passed the stickies?

[Oulanbator]

Cream Soda, on 29 October 2009 - 07:52 PM, said:

I explained it in one line
Focus up, focus down, capped acc, only 5% haste total, doesn't matter. Those pants are never better than haidate.

This is not an explanation. It's a point a view. The reader doesn't get to know how and why these pants aren't good.

[pathwriter]

A basic understanding of how Kick Attacks work would be more than sufficient to figure out why that pair of augments is a poor choice. Oh, and a basic understanding of Accuracy.

[shadowdereapz]

The worse your accuracy gets the worse the haste+3%/kick att+5 pants would be.

As it is it's virtually impossible to cap your acc on anything worthwhile without the use of sushi or pizza+1.

Actually tho, if you went the haste+3%/acc+7 route, those pants would have .5 more acc then byakko's, with 2% less haste, that is factoring in the dex+2 as well tho.

Either way, I won't be using them on monk, as I'm first in line atm for byakko's in my sky shell... so it's just a matter of when the kitty feels like dropping them for me.

[Terrous]

If someone is considering the -4physical damage, then wouldn't the 7acc be effective? This way you don't lose acc when swapping out Byakko's which you should need for countering, right?

[pathwriter]

I don't really worry about Counter and Counterstance if I'm wearing my defensive kit. It's mostly something to throw on when kiting or running to a teleporter or when I'm actually blood-tanking something (which is, uh, never). I can count on one hand the number of times I've been caught with both Utsusemi timers down in Salvage.

[Terrous]

True enough, it's too bad the movement speed most likely won't stack with Hermes. 20% speed would be fun.