[pathwriter]

Bards who get hit by Mortal Revolution deserve to die or should leave their Salvage shell. There's absolutely no reason that a Bard cannot run in and out on Chariots above 25% HP because a combination of minimal TP gain and Penance should be hobbling the boss substantially. Unless you've got something retarded like two Warriors tanking the boss, you're probably using Monks and Samurai in some combination and their TP feed is phenomenally low. Under 25% HP, Soul Voice, Troubadour, and Nightingale should be used, but getting hit might happen, but it's still not that hard to be mobile. Discoid (and Gear TP attacks) should be the only damage a Bard takes normally in Salvage.

[Creelo]

pathwriter, on 01 November 2009 - 05:58 AM, said:

Bards who get hit by Mortal Revolution deserve to die or should leave their Salvage shell. There's absolutely no reason that a Bard cannot run in and out on Chariots above 25% HP because a combination of minimal TP gain and Penance should be hobbling the boss substantially. Unless you've got something retarded like two Warriors tanking the boss, you're probably using Monks and Samurai in some combination and their TP feed is phenomenally low. Under 25% HP, Soul Voice, Troubadour, and Nightingale should be used, but getting hit might happen, but it's still not that hard to be mobile. Discoid (and Gear TP attacks) should be the only damage a Bard takes normally in Salvage.

I figured you'd say something like this lol

I agree a good Brd should be able to get in and out while putting up their Songs without taking any dmg from AoE's but this is not always the case. You can't say you've never gone in to buff and have been hit by an AoE at least once in your Salvage experiences while running out. It'd be nice to think that every group has Penance, Auspice up throughout the fight, or x2 Mnk Tanks (which is definitely the most common Tanking combo), but sadly and not surprisingly, not all groups have this. Even with this, sometime's the frequency of attacks (Including dmg performed outside of the Tanks) just manages to push the Chariot into using a TP Attack. This is even more pronounced if the Brd is unfortunate enough to not have certain pieces of equip unlocked (Most notably Body or possibly Rings/Earrings).

To say that Brds should never be hit by MR (or to extend into other AoE's performed by Chariots above 25%, aside from Discoid) is a rather cocky statement. If you would've said "usually never" then I would've agreed with you.

Also, can we agree to end this so we don't detract anymore from the OP?

[pathwriter]

No, a Bard shouldn't be hit by Mortal Revolution above 25% of the boss's HP. Their TP attacks are generally delayed and Mortal Revolution itself necessarily cuts into its own TP gain because the melee are either Stunned or recasting Utsusemi for several seconds afterwards. Even without Yigit Gomlek/Sha'Ir Manteel (Minstrel's Ring is not likely to be active), a competent Bard should only risk running into range if the tanks are somehow without songs.

And I tank Salvage as my Monk, which is why I know what the TP behavior of chariots should be.

If your group is doing stupid things like using four melee on Chariots or letting a Warrior dual wield Ridill and Joyeuse on it or something, then you need to shout at them or find another group. In the meantime, Bard is damned near the most boring job imaginable in Salvage and I'm saying that as someone who has, from time to time, played Bard and pulled the zones.

[Creelo]

Yes... As I've stated before, a good Brd should not be hit by a Chariot's TP Attacks, including MR...

Using your own example though, if somehow the Tanks are without Songs (Emergency Situation perhaps?), then would it not be at all feasible to use what I had mentioned before for the sake of getting that extra .1% of Haste? If getting hit with MR meant you dying without that extra Phy. Dmg Protection, but you absolutely needed to give those March Buffs, wouldn't you give up that extra .1% Haste for your own survival? (Most Brd's don't have an Umbra/Cheviot Cape unless they have another Mage Job like Rdm that soloes frequently, but all Brd's should at least have an Earth Staff)

Would it be feasible at all in the situation/s I had given? Not all Salvage groups are as seemingly experienced as yours

I'd rather not get into what I used to have to deal with in my old Main Salvage group but it was sadly far from "Ideal." And it wasn't as simple as just "Leaving the Shell." That is far easier said than done (However, I did eventual leave after a long time). Don't worry though, we didn't do anything as terribly "retarded" like you had mentioned.

[pathwriter]

3% physical damage reduction really isn't going to make a meaningful difference. Let's take 1000 Needles as an example. 3% of that is a mere 30 damage. Terra's Staff reduces it by 200 damage. There should be almost no situation in which all members do not have unlocked HP so unless you're a Tarutaru who wears Zenith armor, Goliard Trews are not a meaningful trade-off on 1000 Needles. Mortal Revolution does less than that, so 3% damage reduction is even more irrelevant. Damage reduction sets matter when you're either a.) able to predict that you're going to take damage, b.) taking continuous damage, or c.) stacking meaningful amounts. A Bard can get moderate damage reduction but it is at the cost of losing much of their important gear and then it's no longer a question of .1% Haste as of several points of Haste.

People make things far more complicated than they are when they try to plan for the one in a million situation. Plan for your everyday. If you really want to make a defensive kit, do so, but don't cast songs in Goliard Trews just because you might be hit with enough damage that they would prevent you dying.

[Creelo]

pathwriter, on 01 November 2009 - 04:30 PM, said:

3% physical damage reduction really isn't going to make a meaningful difference. Let's take 1000 Needles as an example. 3% of that is a mere 30 damage. Terra's Staff reduces it by 200 damage. There should be almost no situation in which all members do not have unlocked HP so unless you're a Tarutaru who wears Zenith armor, Goliard Trews are not a meaningful trade-off on 1000 Needles. Mortal Revolution does less than that, so 3% damage reduction is even more irrelevant. Damage reduction sets matter when you're either a.) able to predict that you're going to take damage, b.) taking continuous damage, or c.) stacking meaningful amounts. A Bard can get moderate damage reduction but it is at the cost of losing much of their important gear and then it's no longer a question of .1% Haste as of several points of Haste.

People make things far more complicated than they are when they try to plan for the one in a million situation. Plan for your everyday. If you really want to make a defensive kit, do so, but don't cast songs in Goliard Trews just because you might be hit with enough damage that they would prevent you dying.

That wasn't the example I was getting at... I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough... but I was getting at the Salvage situations I had described. Specifically, I used an example of when you said "a competent Bard should only risk running into range if the tanks are somehow without songs."

Specifically, I had said...

Creelo said:

Using your own example though, if somehow the Tanks are without Songs (Emergency Situation perhaps?), then would it not be at all feasible to use what I had mentioned before for the sake of getting that extra .1% of Haste? If getting hit with MR meant you dying without that extra Phy. Dmg Protection, but you absolutely needed to give those March Buffs, wouldn't you give up that extra .1% Haste for your own survival? (Most Brd's don't have an Umbra/Cheviot Cape unless they have another Mage Job like Rdm that soloes frequently, but all Brd's should at least have an Earth Staff)

Instead of answering this, you just talked about how Goliard Trews make a very trivial difference, which I had agreed with and stated earlier anyways. You then went on to using Goliard Trews in a March Build (something that I never actually advised). I had never mentioned using Goliard Trews in a March Build. In my Salvage example, I was using just an Umbra Cape and Terra's Staff over using Astute and Chanter's as they both can provide rather higher amounts of Phy. Dmg Reduction. Also, as far as I can remember, in all situations when facing against 1000 Needles, you would have your HP Unlocked anyways. And anyways, it is "Ideal" for everyone to have HP Unlocked, but this isn't always the case. You'd be surprised at how often a Brd is shafted on HP Cells too... (Idk if you've had to deal with that, but it definitely has happened for myself and others that I've talked to). In the end, I was questioning whether it'd be more important to use Terra's/Umbra over Chanter's/Astute to ensure survivability over .1% Haste in situations where your Tanks for some reason don't have Songs on (which I believe is generally in Emergency situations, and in this dire case, I'd personally rather just sacrafice that .1% of Haste instead of adding to the dire situation by being hit with MR and either being Dead or having dangerously low HP).

In an effort to try to end this...

Definition of a Complete Career Brd/True Career Brd/Complete Perfectionist True Career Brd: A Brd that only has Brd to bring to Endgame, only cares to bring Brd to Endgame, and wishes to Maximize their Brd's Potential in all aspects of the actions they take.

Complete Career Brds should only be truly concerned with this idea of using different gear for Buffs instead of just adding unnecessary amounts of Skill Gear. So for you Path, this probably wouldn't actually apply to you... Career Brds that even have multiple 75 jobs shouldn't even worry about this, as the effect is minimal. Brd's only concerned with maximizing all aspects of their Buffing songs (not just their potency) should follow this Ideology at least to some extent.

~A Brd's Main Buffs~

The only Buff that should use Full Skill Builds almost always (I mean like 99% of the time) is a Brd's March Songs. That 1% of the time is generally situations like that Salvage example I discussed, where you would want to add some Protection Gear in order to cast your Marches without dying yourself.

I've already discussed Madrigal. Complete Career Brds with Max Wind/Singing Merits have much room for more Protective Gear or just plain Stat Enhancing Gear than a Brd without any Merits while still being able to max out their Blade Madrigals Acc Increase.

Valor Minuet IV is pathetically easy for any kind of Brd to Max, so if you are using pieces of gear like Chanter's over a simple Earth Staff (which you should have anyways as Brd) in this song, then you're just a plain idiot for being too lazy to NOT put it in your Valor Minuet IV Macro... Will that -20% Phy. Dmg always help? No, but you'd be surprised at how much it actually can. Again, the only reason for not doing something like this when you're actually capable of doing so is just plain laziness or being just ignorant of how your gear is actually helping your song buffs.

I swear if I were to see another Brd use Chanter's (or any other useless piece of Skill gear when they already have better gear for Buffing on them) instead of just plainly using their Earth/Terra's for fucking Mage's Ballad or any other song NOT affected by Skill, I am going to go completely insane. (The augmented Brd JSE Daggers with Casting Delay on them are totally acceptable if the Brd isn't into casting songs with Blinks (Like Fast Cast/Song Casting Delay when starting the song ---> Skill and other Gear after the song as been started)).

This "FULL SKILL GEAR BUILDS ALWAYS AND FOREVA DUUUUDE!!!11" Ideology has taken over the minds of too many Brd's who consider themselves to be Career Brds or Complete Career Brds. Again, if you aren't a Career Brd (Ex: You just play it because your LS requires you, or if you only use it for Merits) then DON'T worry about this. This only applies to those who really wish to maximize the potential of a Brd.

Brd's who don't want to concern themselves with this don't have to follow it by any means. The effects of this Ideology are minimal, but can make a difference if used right. As long as they try to maximize their March Songs as best they can, then their other songs will more than likely be maxed. But the Complete Perfectionist True Career Brd would probably be concerned with this other Ideology I've been talking about. Those of you who aren't this kind of Brd, don't get your tits in a tizzy because chances are you're doing just fine or more than fine with your buffs. Also don't get your tits in a tizzy about the fact that there are actually Brd's like this Complete Perfectionist True Career Brd that want to optimize themselves as much as possible, no matter how minimal it may be...

~How/Why this was Brought Up~

Now the only reason why this Ideology was brought was because A) Someone had Mentioned AF1+1 > Shalwar for Buffs, when this isn't always the case. and B ) The OP talks about trying to land Debuffs on Mobs that normally require ES to land.

Do you honestly expect a regular, non-Career Brd to be able to EVER land a Debuff on mobs like these consistently without ES? No, never.

Even this Complete Perfectionist True Career Brd would probably have a damn hard time doing so.

So we can conclude that chances are ES will always be needed to reliably land Elegy on these kind of Mobs, which has already been stated in posts earlier.

Now there was mention of possible Testing being done to test Chr vs. Skill and such. Let's just wait to see the results of this for this thread to continue. People should still feel free to contribute their own experiences regarding Chr and Skill gear when it comes to resists, but let's leave this Ideology I've talked about behind or to a Thread devoted to it.

Finally, I'm sorry for this HUGE wall of Text, but I want to end this. x.x

[pathwriter]

Shut the fuck up already, jesus. I'm not even going to read that colossal wank because you've been going on and on about meaningless shit and I'm now bored mindless by it.

[Creelo]

pathwriter, on 01 November 2009 - 06:54 PM, said:

Shut the fuck up already, jesus. I'm not even going to read that colossal wank because you've been going on and on about meaningless shit and I'm now bored mindless by it.

I've been waiting for you to do the same Goddamn thing! X.x

This fucking idea isn't that hard to understand AT ALL. And IT DOESN'T EVEN APPLY TO YOU SINCE YOU AREN'T THIS KIND OF BRD I'M TALKING ABOUT. Yet, I've felt the need to explain myself in as clear of detail as possible because you didn't even respond correctly to what I had posed as a question in a previously post!! And I don't want to have to worry about others like you misconstruing or twisting the words that I've been writing around (like you did in your last post before telling me to STFU). So quit forum trolling the fuck out of this thread so then I don't have to keep forum trolling this thread in an effort to have to keep clarifying myself to make myself as clear as possible for your thick head.

The worst part is that we actually do agree upon like everything when it comes to Brd, yet you keep getting your Titties in a Tizzy. You believe this idea I've been talking about is Minimal and then post why, AND I FUCKING AGREE WITH YOU. Do you not understand??

Now, that last huge post I made did a pretty decent job imo of clarifying this Ideology and tried to sum up what I believe we all agree upon in this thread as a whole.

Now please do shut the fuck up, and don't write a post telling me to shut the fuck up because I already plan on doing so because I am SICK of responding to this thread. X.x

[Ezekial]

Cheelo, maybe if you didn't type like a complete fucking retard people would actually read what you're writing.

[Saxonian]

Ezekial, on 04 November 2009 - 11:21 PM, said:

Cheelo, maybe if you didn't type like a complete fucking retard people would actually read what you're writing.

He actually had valid points, and stopped typing like a retard. Path was just being Path.