[Kaparu]

Altanos, on 05 November 2009 - 09:11 PM, said:

I agree they are different, however 95% of PLD's I know I can't even convince to go near the harness that is infinitely better then their shiny Koenig, let alone persuade them to embrace tighty whighties. Another thing though, not all PLD's are able to swap around DD gear for Atonement spam, I've managed to pick up on doing it but I freely admit it's not for everyone to do as it is difficult to maintain at times. Many people would, and do, much better with classical tanking styles such as HP swaps and cure spamming rather then trying to idle in offensive gear, it's not for everyone in short.

I'm not concerned with the priorities of morons. In terms of an ever-evolving video game like the one we play, classical is just another word for out-dated.

Note: I'm certainly not calling you a moron, unless, well, you're doing exactly what I'm advocating against.

[Kaparu]

Corrderio, on 05 November 2009 - 06:15 PM, said:

PDT is all I can really see getting for PLD that you won't replace later on if you're in a decent shell. And besides that subligar and men* don't mix.

*= Unless you're a taru male.

Unless you're completely unable to handle macros, these are significantly better than Homam for anything other than casting.

[Phlow]

Altanos, on 05 November 2009 - 10:34 PM, said:

As for the cure +5%, I don't see many people using Hospitalers Earring as is. Should they? Perhaps, I rarely get a capped out cure anyway since I'm usually healed as I cure IV. I guess if you REALLY want more for your cure, go for it. But only if your going to start using H. Earring too.

Yes. If you do the math, Hosptilar's is a little over +4 enmity on heals. So wearing the Hospitalers is actually more effective than H.Earring +1 on heals (or any other +Enmity earring). And add to the fact that it is base hate, rather than a modifier to base hate (meaning you get the benefit of putting the new enm through all of your +enm)

The +5% on heals is a great choice, actually, if you need the +enmity. Of course, the fact that you're pushing +50 enmity is also valid. You can only cap hate so high.

[Hitoseijuro]

Phlow, on 06 November 2009 - 01:45 AM, said:

Yes. If you do the math, Hosptilar's is a little over +4 enmity on heals. So wearing the Hospitalers is actually more effective than H.Earring +1 on heals (or any other +Enmity earring). And add to the fact that it is base hate, rather than a modifier to base hate (meaning you get the benefit of putting the new enm through all of your +enm)

The +5% on heals is a great choice, actually, if you need the +enmity. Of course, the fact that you're pushing +50 enmity is also valid. You can only cap hate so high.

^this, also phlow it isnt +enmity(cure potency), so gear cap in enmity wont affect the cure potency for enmity. Lets say you cap gear enmity, cure potency will take you passed that cap and add more enmity. Just like cure potency takes you over the cap in curing , it should take you over enmity cap in gear as it adds more CE to your cures which thus adds more enmity to you, if that makes sense.

Quote

You need more enmity?
I should elaborate on that a little, I'm @ +44, with merits +48, any more need for Enmity is almost silly really. Enmity is not the only stat that is important to PLD. Now mind you, I've stated the HP / Enmity and Phys Dmg - would be your best result. The extra HP would help with how much Enmity you lose when you are hit and you have the -dmg gear to help more.

Its free enmity, not gear enmity which means if you had +50 enmity on your cures, you would get 55~ish per cure rather than 50. Generating more enmity is never silly. The more/faster you generate at the start of a fight to cap out your CE value the more time you have to idle in your DD gear overall. If I can get 1~2 more ws in just from this, it makes it all worth it.

Every spell/action you make slows down your TP accumulation. So every spell/action you do make should be to its fullest to minimize the amount of actions needed to make overall.


As far as what +1 PDT% +25HP does for you, its actually about the same CE as cure potency will grant you(outside of HNM crits) if not less, depending on HP/Hit. Meaning you would have to be getting hit for more than 200 damage with 1400 hp for it to even be on par with CE from Cure potency. So basically youd have to be getting hit around the 250 per hit with no more than 1500 HP for those pants to be on par if not barely better than what the cure potency of those pants give you.

Now calculate how many times you cure yourself vs
How many times as /nin you get hit, then subtract the times you block and those hits being AoEs from those numbers of hits and compare it with curing. Now from those hits see how many of those are 250+.
Chances are curing is going to win, if not be just on par with getting hit ratio.

[Altanos]

Hitoseijuro, on 06 November 2009 - 03:01 AM, said:

^this, also phlow it isnt +enmity(cure potency), so gear cap in enmity wont affect the cure potency for enmity. Lets say you cap gear enmity, cure potency will take you passed that cap and add more enmity. Just like cure potency takes you over the cap in curing , it should take you over enmity cap in gear as it adds more CE to your cures which thus adds more enmity to you, if that makes sense.


Its free enmity, not gear enmity which means if you had +50 enmity on your cures, you would get 55~ish per cure rather than 50. Generating more enmity is never silly. The more/faster you generate at the start of a fight to cap out your CE value the more time you have to idle in your DD gear overall. If I can get 1~2 more ws in just from this, it makes it all worth it.

Every spell/action you make slows down your TP accumulation. So every spell/action you do make should be to its fullest to minimize the amount of actions needed to make overall.


As far as what +1 PDT% +25HP does for you, its actually about the same CE as cure potency will grant you(outside of HNM crits) if not less, depending on HP/Hit. Meaning you would have to be getting hit for more than 200 damage with 1400 hp for it to even be on par with CE from Cure potency. So basically youd have to be getting hit around the 250 per hit with no more than 1500 HP for those pants to be on par if not barely better than what the cure potency of those pants give you.

Now calculate how many times you cure yourself vs
How many times as /nin you get hit, then subtract the times you block and those hits being AoEs from those numbers of hits and compare it with curing. Now from those hits see how many of those are 250+.
Chances are curing is going to win, if not be just on par with getting hit ratio.

You said, "More enmity for cures" which would entail macroing in the extra enmity on these pants, but I see your point now. Regardless, thank you for posting the math above, I appreciate it. I guess it's different styles really. I prefer to low man things and frequently am the only tank. I already hold hate fine, so If I can get something to minimize my damage taken a little more for when it happens, I will. That being said I'd sooner do Acc +7 / Haste +3 then Cure. As I said earlier, I rarely see a full potential cure IV as is.

[Kaparu]

Altanos, on 06 November 2009 - 05:08 AM, said:

You said, "More enmity for cures" which would entail macroing in the extra enmity on these pants, but I see your point now. Regardless, thank you for posting the math above, I appreciate it. I guess it's different styles really. I prefer to low man things and frequently am the only tank. I already hold hate fine, so If I can get something to minimize my damage taken a little more for when it happens, I will. That being said I'd sooner do Acc +7 / Haste +3 then Cure. As I said earlier, I rarely see a full potential cure IV as is.

Parallel to Excalibur vs. Burtgang

Why make something easy easier, when you can make something (generally) slow faster?

EDIT: Especially when you'll virtually never notice a practical difference in damage taken, while the difference in hit-rate will show up plain as day on a parse

[Altanos]

Kaparu, on 06 November 2009 - 04:16 PM, said:

Parallel to Excalibur vs. Burtgang

Why make something easy easier, when you can make something (generally) slow faster?

EDIT: Especially when you'll virtually never notice a practical difference in damage taken, while the difference in hit-rate will show up plain as day on a parse

This is a very good point and points out my hypocrisy on this, as I clearly believe Excalibur is easily better then Burtgang. I suppose at the end of the day, I RDM tank everything, and my logic behind how I handle my RDM is bleeding a little into my NIN and PLD. Which is actually improving my tanking style mind you.

I still can't help but point out though, I have seen three Paladins, out of all the videos, screen shots and plain in game experience using ANY Darksteel, this list includes a good friend of mine and myself. This means, out of the 4378963489746389386 PLD's out there that I have bore witness to over 5 years, across all servers, across all forms of media related to this game, I have only seen 3 use any form of darksteel. I highly, highly doubt they will use a Subligar anytime soon, this of course does not make the augment any better in anyway, I'm merely pointing out that with this piece, people will actually use it.

I love picking on PLD's though because of that, they rock their Koenig and still get hit for more then my RDM, and come back with "But Koenig has VIT !" every time, it's cute. Anyway, in short, I still find this augment to benefit the most (as in people), because people will actually use it and further, you can't TP on everything, most things? Yes, all things? No, there are a few mobs you don't really get to TP on. Basically Phys dmg - will help you on every fight, every situation for Paladin, every time, Accuracy wont, and even if it will, Homam will suit you well enough.

I'll also point out, yes 1% is not much compared to Dst Sub +1, however, let's consider PLD's total available Phys dmg -. Staff is out of the question, for obvious reasons most of the time, so we have 2% Head, 4% Body, 2% Hands 3% Legs, 2% Feet, 5% Ring and another 2% from another Ring, 7% Sword. Yay for 27%? This is peanuts compared to the -46% NIN and RDM can achieve fairly easily.

I guess no matter what though, you can bring it back too "You wont die tanking now, so the 1% is not needed." which is correct. Pick what you want, I'd wager Haste +3% / Acc 7 or Phys dmg -4%, whatever suits your play style is the best.

[Hitoseijuro]

Altanos, on 07 November 2009 - 06:34 PM, said:

I'll also point out, yes 1% is not much compared to Dst Sub +1, however, let's consider PLD's total available Phys dmg -. Staff is out of the question, for obvious reasons most of the time, so we have 2% Head, 4% Body, 2% Hands 3% Legs, 2% Feet, 5% Ring and another 2% from another Ring, 7% Sword. Yay for 27%? This is peanuts compared to the -46% NIN and RDM can achieve fairly easily.

Huh?

7% sword
5% head
5% body
3% hands
2%feet
5% ring
10% ring
3% legs

Looks more like 40%(32% realistically on average main tanks) Toss in the fact that we can block, get TP returns from it and negate any interruptions, all while still adding damage through our ws to any mob and you start to see , that the extra 14% doesnt necessarily mean much compared to what you are missing out on.

Both jobs are equal in their own ways, b/c on things where you would get terror and nullify a plds blocks, the damage difference of 32-46% a pld could recure himself, while the nin wouldnt be able to. Both tanks find a way to over come their differences from each other.

[Kaparu]

No need to defend paladins' ability to mitigate damage. Red mage tanking is my passion, but I'm the first to acknowledge that anything subject to Atonement shouldn't be touched by a ninja or red mage.

[FurionStormRage]

Altanos, on 07 November 2009 - 06:34 PM, said:

I still can't help but point out though, I have seen three Paladins, out of all the videos, screen shots and plain in game experience using ANY Darksteel, this list includes a good friend of mine and myself. This means, out of the 4378963489746389386 PLD's out there that I have bore witness to over 5 years, across all servers, across all forms of media related to this game, I have only seen 3 use any form of darksteel. I highly, highly doubt they will use a Subligar anytime soon, this of course does not make the augment any better in anyway, I'm merely pointing out that with this piece, people will actually use it.

Really? Every single PLD in my LS (Except a couple who just have it 75 but never use it) have at least NQ Darksteel, several of us have HQ pieces.

I mean we all have AT LEAST body, hands, legs. (Most of those pieces are HQ Body, HQ Legs. For some reason getting HQ hands is a bitch)

I thought it was much more common than you're experiencing.

[Kaparu]

FurionStormRage, on 09 November 2009 - 09:54 PM, said:

Really? Every single PLD in my LS (Except a couple who just have it 75 but never use it) have at least NQ Darksteel, several of us have HQ pieces.

I mean we all have AT LEAST body, hands, legs. (Most of those pieces are HQ Body, HQ Legs. For some reason getting HQ hands is a bitch)

I thought it was much more common than you're experiencing.

Its really not. Then again, neither are Atonement-users, which is even more sad.

[artaxerxes]

no one's going to bring up the fact that these are ugly as sin?

[FurionStormRage]

artaxerxes, on 11 November 2009 - 05:26 PM, said:

no one's going to bring up the fact that these are ugly as sin?

Effectiveness beats style, for me at least.

I'd tank in a freakin pink bunny outfit if it gave enough "insert pertinent stat here".

[TresDuendes]

artaxerxes, on 11 November 2009 - 05:26 PM, said:

no one's going to bring up the fact that these are ugly as sin?

^ obviously never worn subligar

[Hitoseijuro]

TresDuendes, on 11 November 2009 - 11:53 PM, said:

^ obviously never worn subligar

You've obviously never seen Art

[Corrderio]

MY EYES!!!!!!! THEY BURN!!!!!!!!!!

[TresDuendes]

that is fairly BA

[artaxerxes]

I'm beautiful