[Pobyedobyedo]

As it stands now I think the ideal DRK build was:
Perdu
Pole grip
Bomblet
Turban
Ebod
Foragers
3x homam
This gave us cap acc and the traditional 17-18% haste. Now it was argued before that cutting off a hit to 100 would destroy the current builds, but it wasn't viable due to the loss of acc for stp. If a DRK could maintain over 90% acc than the store tp would be worth something however.

With the new add-on legs a set like this can maintain greater than 90% acc on birds while cutting out a hit to 100:
Perdu->Tred (528 delay needed for the 5 hit. Lose 5 accuracy here)
Pole->Rose ( 2 double attack traded for 17% increase in weaponskill frequency)
Bomblet
Turban->Aces ( Since accuracy uncaps, Aces becomes better here)
Ebod->Aurum body (Quite a loss in acc here but needed for the store tp)
Foragers->Cuch mantle ( Since accuracy uncaps, cuch becomes better here)
2x homam
Homam Legs->New augment legs with acc+7 3%haste (augment legs wouldn't be far off from homam, but the extra 4 acc over them puts the build over 90% acc.)

I don't have the gear to pull this off yet, but maybe it can be the new optimum build for non-relic DRKs. Nothing would beat a 17% increase in weaponskill frequency, especially for us DRKs. This is for any area where a drk would generally use scythe. Basing accuracy off that of a meripo colibri, because generally speaking we should be using greatsword on anything with higher eva than that.

[Mogar]

If Ace's is in your ideal set then somethings wrong, acc is caped without Ace's so Turban is better.

And you could always use pizza. Or Hasso if you're /sam

[Pobyedobyedo]

the drk needs to eat carbonara as well as use the above gear to reach the stp for 5 hit, so accuracy+ from food is out of the question. Accuracy is capped without aces for the ideal drk set. Gonna edit op post to reflect that.
But yeah thoughts?

[Hitoseijuro]

Mogar, on 30 October 2009 - 04:36 PM, said:

If Ace's is in your ideal set then somethings wrong, acc is caped without Ace's so Turban is better.

And you could always use pizza. Or Hasso if you're /sam

Only when DE is up. When its down, he will need Ace's helm for that setup he has.

[Vawtwee]

I'm very close to the "idea" five hit build, and I've spent a good time calculating all the stats and acc of the build. This is what I came up with:

Main: Tred
Grip: Rose
Ammo: Bomblet
Head: Ace's
Neck: Justice
Earrings: Brutal/Abyssa
Body: Aurum
Hands: Homam
Rings: Rajas/Toreador's
Back: Abyss cape/Cuchu
Belt: Swift/Speed
legs: Homam / Augmented legs
Feet: Homam

With hasso, this will give you somewhere between 407 and 412 acc, which is relatively low compared to the 420-430 you can hit with ebody, but it's enough to do the job. Also you must eat Carbonara. This'll give you 19.5 TP a hit, so with guillotine you should be able to miss 1-2 hits on it as well and still be good.

Another setup I recently had was based on what Conserve TP does, but if it's more or less equivalent to the effect of 5 stp, it could allow you to TP in ebody pretty easily, and swapping in ecphoria instead of toreador's, which would be the superior build.

[Pobyedobyedo]

That 5 hit should be able to outperform most of the currently accepted builds between hasso and DE. You can swap out the justice for chiv and make it exactly 20.0 tp a hit for true 5 hit even excluding weaponskill tp return. Have you parsed any with it yet?

[Nameless]

I have done some math on the build and the result is actually not very good (I actually just put it in my damage calculator which I built on excel).

First of all, you will only be able to use this on weaker mobs. Between buff and carbonara, your attack is going to be pretty high already, making critical hit on normal hits a small increase over non-critical hits. That itself is going to reduce the effectiveness of Tred. not to mention you do swing 5-6% less compare to Perdu due to delay.

Second of all, what you fail to realize is that, while in situation where 407-415 acc can get by, 6 hit adaberk users are going to be able to swap out those extra acc for stuff like blitz ring, turban, forager, bombcore, for extra haste and extra attack. They are also able to eat higher attack food instead of carbonara, making them do more per hit than a 5 hit build can.

Third, on any meaningful mob, the pure difference in acc is enough to neglect the advantage of a 5 hit. Not to mention you are not able to eat pizza or the like to cover that.

Last, tred. does not add any value to your WS, it excels in DoT for tping, so you are actually make it do what it is not so effective for.

In the end, I only see this build good for weak mobs, and it might not even be that great. In campaign with a rose strap is fun tho.

[Vawtwee]

First of all, you will only be able to use this on weaker mobs. Between buff and carbonara, your attack is going to be pretty high already, making critical hit on normal hits a small increase over non-critical hits. That itself is going to reduce the effectiveness of Tred. not to mention you do swing 5-6% less compare to Perdu due to delay.

People experimenting with a five hit on drk are already aware of the fact that perdu has less delay, which isn't really the point. The point is that Tred is the best 528 delay scythe readily available (besides Bec), and you need 528 to make a plausible five-hit. If you want to talk about the standard/ideal six hit drk, that's fine, and I will be in full agreement with you, but that's not what this topic is pertaining to.

Second of all, what you fail to realize is that, while in situation where 407-415 acc can get by, 6 hit adaberk users are going to be able to swap out those extra acc for stuff like blitz ring, turban, forager, bombcore, for extra haste and extra attack. They are also able to eat higher attack food instead of carbonara, making them do more per hit than a 5 hit build can.

The entire topic is about an accuracy issue with a five hit, and I am an adaberk drk who does swap out extra acc for more haste/attack, but once again, not really relevant. Unless you're talking about carbonara vs red curry, the attack difference isn't going to be noticeable, especially with other buffs. Carbonara also helps with souleater damage, which helps balance out the reduction in possible melee damage. I'm also not failing to realize anything, since the five hit build drk can still use Diabolic Eye, boosting their acc to 427-435, in which case it's going to beat out the 2 haste and 12 acc you can get by swapping in turban and blitz. Or you can throw in turban and blitz to remain at 420 acc or so and gain 2% haste on the five hit.

Third, on any meaningful mob, the pure difference in acc is enough to neglect the advantage of a 5 hit. Not to mention you are not able to eat pizza or the like to cover that.

Again, topic title. It's about getting as much accuracy with a five hit build, not why it's not logical to use one over a six hit. Obviously there are going to be situations where it's not pertinent to use a five hit, but that doesn't mean it's not beneficial to have one.

Last, tred. does not add any value to your WS, it excels in DoT for tping, so you are actually make it do what it is not so effective for.

Since when has Guillotine ever been a powerhouse WS? The point is to get more in, not make Guillotine more powerful.

As I said in my post, there are potentially better options for this build, especially depending on what these new legs do, which could allow you to TP and WS in ebody, therefore solving a very large part of the accuracy problem. Moving from a six to a five hit build is an increase of about 17%, and if you want to take into account the 2% from extra haste as well as 5% from perdu it's still going to be between a 9-10% increase. In harder events such as Dynamis xarcabard/tavnazia, no, this is not the best build, but nobody ever said it was. To me this build would be best used in high buff situations, such as Einherjar with song rotations. Another possible option is to macro in the five-hit with diabolic eye up, since you're going to be /sam anyway, and then switch back to adaberk six hit when it's down.

And no, I haven't parsed it yet, waiting for us to get back on the Einherjar tiers instead of Odin. Might try it on salvage bosses too, and some areas of limbus.

[Nameless]

Pretty funny point of view. I am not sure what you think you are defending honestly.

To your first counter point. Yes, we all know perdu is better than tred. when it is a 6 hit build, and we all know that you do need 528 delay to reach a 5 hit build and Tred. being the best out of the bunch. But what you are missing is that you are pursuing 5 hit build while SACRIFICING the possibility of using a better scythe. You don't seem to understand the pro and con of a build. The pro is to WS more as a 5 hit build, which will give you a certain % of improvement in WS usage, the con is that you are using a higher delay weapon, which will also decrease your WS usage. So overall obviously the gain is not at its full since while you gain you also lose some. While we all know that the gain of a hit build is more than the loss due to longer delay, it does counter the point slightly, and together with other factor, it is debatable instead of a clean cut.

To your second counter point, I am not sure you are understanding the point. You said carbonara will give you more HP and thus increase your overall DoT, point taken. However, a 6 hit build also can use carbonara, and they have the freedom of not using it when they see it not fit. While both eat carbonara, adaberk users still got a good 25-30 acc over the 5 hit build, which, as I said, can be swapped for a couple points of haste and some att. So it is not a doubt that a 6 hit will hit harder, and also hit faster. If you have 25-30 acc over cap and not do anything about it, there is some problem with your playing style. So again, even if the 6 hit build is not getting any benefit from freedom of food use, they still gain the haste and att from freedom of swapping out acc. And also, adaberk ppl can use DE too, so in reality they can swap more acc out.

Third, I am very aware of the topic title. The point of your topic is to find a better way of executing a 5 hit build. While it is about a 5 hit build, you are unavoidably comparing to a 6 hit build. So your point of being able to gain more acc for a build, it is my point that it is worthless even if you do gain those acc to make it effective. In reality you are just sacrificing way too much overall to force it. Trust me, go parse and stuff, you will realize that it isn't so perfect. I use a 5 hit build in campaign with a 501 delay scythe and an adaberk thanks to rose strap, so I know what it is about. I would be all for it if there isn't so much sacrifice.

Last, it is not about Guillotine being a powerhouse WS, and yes, it is about getting more WS in. However, again, why don't you look slightly deeper to what I was saying. I said Tred. doesn't offer you anything for WS, point being that you will be doing weaker WS compare to other scythe. So yes, you are able to do more, but overall you do take a slight cut on how much overall you gain from doing more WS. Yes, more WS in this case still is better, but adding this factor with the other, the overall gain from a 5 hit build is again reduced. So much so that eventually they are even.

5 hit build isn't a new thing, your build has also been discussed in both BG and Alla, and the reason ppl are not sporting it like they should is the lack of good 528 delay scythe and situation where you would find this build useful. There is also a 5 hit build using addon helm and addon body, which free you up from using carbonara. That is a much better build which completely solves the acc problem with the option of pizza, and yet ppl know it and still discard it cuz in reality, you are just sacrificing too much for something that is in the end not cost effective.

I certainly hope you are not taking this as an offense, but this really has been discussed way too much already. The 4 acc from new addon pants won't solve anything.

[Pobyedobyedo]

I think a 5hit build at the least would have its niche in certain buffed situations, campaign, and non2houred zergs/after first 30seconds. There's alot of potential in it that I believe were overlooking and its good to argue why and why not to use it and work to solve those flaws. We can be on the verge of a breakthrough with it. Assuming conserve store tp+5 functions similar to store tp that may completely change the way we play drk.


I don't know why change or talking about it should be considered taboo though. You made some really good statements and then...

Quote

this really has been discussed way too much already

huh? I mean, I would expect a bit more enthusiasm in a build that may at least add some diversity to drk. Not like where doing much more on these boards. A perdu sickle is in my opinion, and probably most DRK's opinions the best scythe bar relic at the moment. A more weaponskill-orientated version of drk that parses just the same as the previous top build..wouldn't that only add more to the experience? I'm sure its not just me who gets annoyed 90% of the drks use the same weapon and play-style. /end rant

[Nameless]

It really has been discussed alot and nothing has really changed since then. If conserve tp +5 acts like store tp +5, then it can be something of a revolution. As long as you can keep adaberk, it is to me a successful build.

For compaign you only need rose strap to have a 5 hit, unless you are using a 501 delay weapon, which you will need to add a couple more stp. I am currently using that setup in campaign, and it is fun. For zerg after 30sec, I personally keep zerging and hope the mages curebomb the party, which they should. I don't think switching to a 5 hit should benefit you in that situation, that's just me tho.

I am all for discussion, I just thought that most of the stuff here have already been discussed. What we have not mentioned tho, is that this build is indeed very very good for those who don't own top end gears. The worse your gears are, the better this build will be for you since you are sacrificing less to achieve a fairly strong build. It is just that if you have great gears, the sacrifice is likely not worth it.

If you know me, I was actually one of the few who were excited when Rose strap first came out, and that the possibility of a 5 hit came into mind with a 528 delay scythe. However, I was also one of the few who defused the idea after carefully think it through. Trust me, if it is a better build than 6 hit, I am all for it. Who doesn't want to do better? I am passionate enough to even build my own damage calculator that helps me pick which gear to use in a certain situation, so I am not biased toward any possibility. I also have the gears that are required to build a 5 hit so there really isn't any reason for me to go blindly against it. So i hope you understand.

It does have a niche no doubt, but is the difference significant enough to justify the effort.

[Argettio]

Tred wouldn't be my first choice for a 5 hit DRK.

By moving to a 5hit you are aiming to increase WS frequency, so use a weapon that plays to that fact; Orichalcum Scythe or NQ Death Scythe (with augments) would be better choices.

5hit is certainly a niche set up, its very effective in campaign (if you care about it) due to the massive amount of sTP you get from a rose strap. Out side of campaign it becomes slightly harder to archive, but as people have shown, you can still cap accuracy against VT mobs.

[Vawtwee]

Maybe we got off on the wrong foot Nameless, believe me when I'm the first to say that a 5-hit build sacrifices too much, because when the idea comes up I had always dismissed it before.

I think you also missed some parts of my post where I defined my own build, in which I use perdu, turban, blitz ring, and adaberk. But like I said, a five-hit build for me is situational at best. I also stated that the difference between adaberk perdu and this five hit build, tred delay and perdu delay/haste included, is still around 10% increase instead of the flat 17% that you get without taking into other factors, and simply moving from a six hit to a five hit build.

As for food, I was comparing the attack of the food vs standard DD food (yellow curry subs, coeurl), not the use of the HP+ on it which of course both jobs can get a use out of. You simply said that six-hit drks could eat better food, so I was responding to that.

Pertaining to Guillotine, you can still make a fairly decent WS build with tredecim, even though there are better scythes for guillotine, but that's stating the obvious. I would need to see some parse data comparing perdu and tred guillotines though to believe that the WS damage from the scythe alone could bring the six-hit up to the five-hit in terms of potential WS damage.

My interest in a five-hit got renewed after I heard that the final expansion was legs, and a possible stp slot, which is why I responded to this topic. And to me, no, it's not about comparing it to a six-hit build, it's about comparing it to other, less accurate five hit builds. If the topic was over the effectiveness of a five-hit drk vs an adaberk six-hit drk, my post would've been a bit different. Indeed it has been discussed in the past, but alas, with the announcement of a new possible item, comes new possibilities.

Mathematically speaking I don't know when the lower delay of perdu would catch up to a tredecim five-hit. It wouldn't be that hard to calculate but regardless it's not what I was after, either.

[Hitoseijuro]

Vawtwee, on 03 November 2009 - 12:17 PM, said:

Maybe we got off on the wrong foot Nameless, believe me when I'm the first to say that a 5-hit build sacrifices too much, because when the idea comes up I had always dismissed it before.

I think you also missed some parts of my post where I defined my own build, in which I use perdu, turban, blitz ring, and adaberk. But like I said, a five-hit build for me is situational at best. I also stated that the difference between adaberk perdu and this five hit build, tred delay and perdu delay/haste included, is still around 10% increase instead of the flat 17% that you get without taking into other factors, and simply moving from a six hit to a five hit build.

As for food, I was comparing the attack of the food vs standard DD food (yellow curry subs, coeurl), not the use of the HP+ on it which of course both jobs can get a use out of. You simply said that six-hit drks could eat better food, so I was responding to that.

Pertaining to Guillotine, you can still make a fairly decent WS build with tredecim, even though there are better scythes for guillotine, but that's stating the obvious. I would need to see some parse data comparing perdu and tred guillotines though to believe that the WS damage from the scythe alone could bring the six-hit up to the five-hit in terms of potential WS damage.

My interest in a five-hit got renewed after I heard that the final expansion was legs, and a possible stp slot, which is why I responded to this topic. And to me, no, it's not about comparing it to a six-hit build, it's about comparing it to other, less accurate five hit builds. If the topic was over the effectiveness of a five-hit drk vs an adaberk six-hit drk, my post would've been a bit different. Indeed it has been discussed in the past, but alas, with the announcement of a new possible item, comes new possibilities.

Mathematically speaking I don't know when the lower delay of perdu would catch up to a tredecim five-hit. It wouldn't be that hard to calculate but regardless it's not what I was after, either.

Perdu vs Tred on ws is 93 base damage +5acc +14 vs 95 base damage scythe, perdu can be equal or better than tred for ws.

Things to consider if ppl are comparing 6 vs 5 hit builds is the camp, then compare the foods each build needs, the amount of sTP that has to stay on for TP/WS vs gear that the 6hit will be able to fit in, amount of haste in gear%(magic haste, if haste belt applicable) , acc between both builds, delay between scythe. Add all that up and then average it out and you will see which build would pull ahead.

As far as comparing with other 5 hit builds, I dont see this expansion giving sTP +5 or w/e it was, seem to be a dnc piece imo.

[Bikpik]

With the new 528 Delay scythes (105 Dmg or Occ att twice) is it worth while to look into a 5hit build?

Weapon - 528 scythe (either 105 Dmg or Occ att twice)
Sub - Rose Strap
Ammo - Bomblet
Head - Turban or Ace's
Neck - Peacock or Justice
Ears - Brutal/Abyssal or Brutal/Any Acc
Body - Aurum
Hands - Homam
Rings - Rajas/Blitz or Rajas/Any Acc
Back - Cuch
Waist - Velo/speed or Swift
Legs - Homam or Asa with +haste/acc
Feet - Homam

Eating carbonara and /sam to get 39 stp for a true 5 hit build. With Deye active, using turban/blitz and capped Scythe merits would be 21% haste, and 415 acc (unless my math is off). Swithing to 19% haste and 409 acc with Deye down(using Ace's and +7 Acc ring). (and using taru dex)

What I most interested in is the proc rate of the Occ Att twice weapons. with a 5hit and that, would it be better than the standard Perdu/ebody 6hit setup?

[firefeng]

Bikpik, on 29 March 2010 - 09:38 AM, said:

With the new 528 Delay scythes (105 Dmg or Occ att twice) is it worth while to look into a 5hit build?

Weapon - 528 scythe (either 105 Dmg or Occ att twice)
Sub - Rose Strap
Ammo - Bomblet
Head - Turban or Ace's
Neck - Peacock or Justice
Ears - Brutal/Abyssal or Brutal/Any Acc
Body - Aurum
Hands - Homam
Rings - Rajas/Blitz or Rajas/Any Acc
Back - Cuch
Waist - Velo/speed or Swift
Legs - Homam or Asa with +haste/acc
Feet - Homam

Eating carbonara and /sam to get 39 stp for a true 5 hit build. With Deye active, using turban/blitz and capped Scythe merits would be 21% haste, and 415 acc (unless my math is off). Swithing to 19% haste and 409 acc with Deye down(using Ace's and +7 Acc ring). (and using taru dex)

What I most interested in is the proc rate of the Occ Att twice weapons. with a 5hit and that, would it be better than the standard Perdu/ebody 6hit setup?

The 105 DMG scythe is already better than Perdu, so yes.

[Jazz]

firefeng, on 29 March 2010 - 11:13 PM, said:

The 105 DMG scythe is already better than Perdu, so yes.

QFT



Also, I don't know...but I don't think the proc rate on the OAT weapons will be 50%... but who knows...nobody has one yet, so no tests on that as far as I know...

[Dartalion]

Jazz, on 30 March 2010 - 10:03 PM, said:

QFT



Also, I don't know...but I don't think the proc rate on the OAT weapons will be 50%... but who knows...nobody has one yet, so no tests on that as far as I know...

tests on dagger have it at 40% oat

the argument about hagun vs the oat gkatana is already starting.................

[Jazz]

Dartalion, on 02 April 2010 - 08:08 AM, said:

tests on dagger have it at 40% oat

the argument about hagun vs the oat gkatana is already starting.................

Yeah nobody had posted any tests at the time of my previous post, but yeah the proc rate on these OAT weapons seems to be 40% according to some early tests on BG, that was a small sample but yeah seems to be around 40ish%.

I guess I may have to start working on my OAT weapon when I get back to the game in a few weeks too...

This post has been edited by Jazz: 02 April 2010 - 01:38 PM