[Villainous]

hah, wow it was a 5/7? Flashbacks of counterstrike..
I have a friend whose brother is on the base right now, they still have no info as to the hows or whys. Shit is pretty wild. I'll have to reserve judgment till the guy speaks cuz none of this adds up.
If it was religious zealotry, wow, what a stupid way to go about it. A sleeper who's also a major in the US military? Why would they waste an asset like that on an indiscriminate rampage?

[dakpluto]

What are we, in a fucking competition here in the US now?

Whack job just shot up the old office he was laid off from 2 years ago here in Orlando. Two blocks from where I work. We just got off lockdown a few minutes ago because they caught the bastard. Current Tally is 1 dead and 6 others shot. Some of them may not make it though.

[Keylime]

Update. He also have a .357 hand gun as well. I don't know the make or model and whether it's a auto loader or a revolver.

[Phlow]

Keylime, on 06 November 2009 - 01:49 PM, said:

Other facts.
The civilian police we the first responders to the attack, rather than the base MPs. The attack took place at a recruitment center that was on base. Military bases or weapon free zones. Meaning that soldiers on base, aside from MPs are not permitted to carry a firearm anywhere on base other than the firing range. Weapons are kept under watch of the platoon armorer and can only be issued to a soldier by the armorer. Ammunition is stowed safely away from soldiers and is kept under constant watch.

I'd need more clarification on this, but I've been on naval bases before where normal personal have been on watch with M16s to guard the boats and Marine bases that allow the use of weapons in designated areas for training purposes. Of course, I believe the standard sidearm is the M9, so that would indicate he simply brought it from off-base. Seeing as how he was army personal, it is very unlikely that he was patted down entering the base, and since he had knowledge of the place he could easily avoid any metal detectors.

Of course it COULD have been military issue as the gun itself is designed to abide by NATO bullet standards (no expansion/fragmentation). Which is why I haven't commented on the subject really, just want to learn more about it.

Quote

Deductions.
Considering the the ratio of dead to wounded the attacker more than likely was not a first rate marksman. Considering that the 5.7mm round is a small, high velocity round with a low damage profile the gunman would have had to fire a high volume to shots to inflict as much damage as he had. For hypothetical sake lets say on average he had to fire 5 shots per kill victim and 2 shots per wounded victim. This would mean he and to fire roughly 65 shots for the victims he had killed and another 60 shots for the victims he had wounded.

Meh. I wouldn't entirely agree with the assumptions. Earlier you stated that the 5-7 had high velocity and relatively low expansion ammunition. Depending on whether he had sporting ammunition or tactical, the bullets themselves are designed for anti-armor rather than anti-personal (smaller diameter, no expansion/fragmentation). This would definitely support the wounded-to-dead ratio. It's the same reason why a 9mm isn't the best for home defense - It just doesn't have enough stopping power. The bullets will whiz through an unarmored individual and can wound, but rarely do they kill unless they strike a vital organ/artery. Even then, there is chance for survival if immediate medical attention is received.

On the contrary, the guy could have been an excellent marksmen. The first instinct with a handgun is two in the chest, well practiced in the Mozambique (Failure) Drill. The purpose of the two in the chest is not to kill, but to stun. After danger is eliminated, take a well placed shot to the skull to finish the target off. If this guy entered a room full of hostiles, he'd be pumping rounds into their chests to throw them off balance, then following it up with a shot to the head. If this gun had an expanding bullet, something with a softer core, there would have been a MUCH higher death toll.

As for the situation itself, I'm not commenting on whether or not this was religiously motivated. I'm feeling shitty that 13 people died yesterday. When we figure out for sure it's a religious nut-job, Texans will go 100-to-1.

[Demonsquall]

The U.S. military doesn't use the 5-7 at all to my knowledge. The gun he used was purchased from a gun store in Plano(I think it was) Texas. 5-7 is a relatively common civilian handgun, but because of its low stopping power the armed services use the Beretta 9MM and to a lesser extent (USSOCOM SF units) the 1911.

[firefeng]

Quote

If it was religious zealotry, wow, what a stupid way to go about it. A sleeper who's also a major in the US military? Why would they waste an asset like that on an indiscriminate rampage?

$10 says that he was headfucked over deployment, but that martyrdom to Allah made a convenient outlet for attempted suicide.

[Vigilous]

Quote

Weapon used was a Fabrique Nationale Five-seveN.

Quote

The civilian police we the first responders to the attack, rather than the base MPs. The attack took place at a recruitment center that was on base. Military bases or weapon free zones. Meaning that soldiers on base, aside from MPs are not permitted to carry a firearm anywhere on base other than the firing range. Weapons are kept under watch of the platoon armorer and can only be issued to a soldier by the armorer. Ammunition is stowed safely away from soldiers and is kept under constant watch.

So it's stinky because he used a weapon NOT officially used by US forces? You're clearly reading too much into it. Also, he was using two firearms simultaneously, not just one.


EDIT

Quote

The U.S. military doesn't use the 5-7 at all to my knowledge.

You are correct, sir. Now, MPs might have had a clue if this guy was staying in the barracks and he signed out his weapons from the company armorer, however he lived off post, so he was not required to check them in.

Quote

$10 says that he was headfucked over deployment, but that martyrdom to Allah made a convenient outlet for attempted suicide.

That and he was just told in a performance review that he sucks as a psychiatrist. And he did scream, "God is grrrrrrrrrrrreat!" before killing the only two armed MPs at the crime scene.

[Phlow]

firefeng, on 06 November 2009 - 05:15 PM, said:

$10 says that he was headfucked over deployment, but that martyrdom to Allah made a convenient outlet for attempted suicide.

I've heard more about this now that I'm home and got some free time. This was absolutely not the case. There were MULTIPLE red flags, such as getting in arguments with troops coming home from Iraq about their role in the war while treating them (he was a psych), incredibly anti-american internet postings to pro Islamofascist websites, and gifting all of his belongings (including a Koran to his neighbor) before the attack. Blame for this is falling squarely on his superiors and others who turned a blind eye to a protected minority class because it was just easier to ignore the problem rather than address it and face possible actions that could stain one's career for political correctness.

I read a very good editorial by an Ex-Army General about it all. I'll find it and post it later.

[Demonsquall]

I actually read a large article detailing what this guy did the months before the attack. He in fact did give away all his furniture and a lot of his other belongings, was given a subpar evaluation as a psychiatrist because of the arguing with soldiers, and of course the blog posts mixing Islamic Jihad to the plight of the (I think, can't remember but it was OFF THE WALL) american revolution. Also, the gun was purchased at a gun store called Guns Galore, since its a fairly common model in the U.S. for civi's, no one thought anything of it. and there was no reason to because no one connected the dots. I find it absolutely stupid that his superiors didn't find a problem with this behavior and have him submit to a psych eval himself, and instead just ignored it, causing the deaths of 13(14 if you count the pregnant soldier that was killed OHSHITABORTIONDEBATETIME), and 30 wounded with more of the wounded expected to die. The investigation is going to lead to some nice court martials for his superiors

(Didn't mean to nearly copy your post Phlow, just reiterate lol)

[Keylime]

Phlow, on 06 November 2009 - 05:30 PM, said:

I'd need more clarification on this, but I've been on naval bases before where normal personal have been on watch with M16s to guard the boats and Marine bases that allow the use of weapons in designated areas for training purposes. Of course, I believe the standard sidearm is the M9, so that would indicate he simply brought it from off-base. Seeing as how he was army personal, it is very unlikely that he was patted down entering the base, and since he had knowledge of the place he could easily avoid any metal detectors.

Of course it COULD have been military issue as the gun itself is designed to abide by NATO bullet standards (no expansion/fragmentation). Which is why I haven't commented on the subject really, just want to learn more about it.



Meh. I wouldn't entirely agree with the assumptions. Earlier you stated that the 5-7 had high velocity and relatively low expansion ammunition. Depending on whether he had sporting ammunition or tactical, the bullets themselves are designed for anti-armor rather than anti-personal (smaller diameter, no expansion/fragmentation). This would definitely support the wounded-to-dead ratio. It's the same reason why a 9mm isn't the best for home defense - It just doesn't have enough stopping power. The bullets will whiz through an unarmored individual and can wound, but rarely do they kill unless they strike a vital organ/artery. Even then, there is chance for survival if immediate medical attention is received.

On the contrary, the guy could have been an excellent marksmen. The first instinct with a handgun is two in the chest, well practiced in the Mozambique (Failure) Drill. The purpose of the two in the chest is not to kill, but to stun. After danger is eliminated, take a well placed shot to the skull to finish the target off. If this guy entered a room full of hostiles, he'd be pumping rounds into their chests to throw them off balance, then following it up with a shot to the head. If this gun had an expanding bullet, something with a softer core, there would have been a MUCH higher death toll.

As for the situation itself, I'm not commenting on whether or not this was religiously motivated. I'm feeling shitty that 13 people died yesterday. When we figure out for sure it's a religious nut-job, Texans will go 100-to-1.

From what I've heard from other soldiers on a different forum, for the most part MPs don't really search vehicles or frisk people. I don't know why though. You bring up a very valid point that I had not considered or was ignorant to. Again I've only heard this second hand from other Army personnel but aside from MPs they claim that for the most part army personnel aren't really permitted to carry around their weapon, but their maybe an exclusion for officers and their side arm. Again on this I can only go on second hand info and lulznewsnetworks.

From what I read up on lol wikipedia about the 5.7mm round basically all varieties except full metal jacketed and lead free full metal jacketed rounds are illegal to own except by someone with a Class III Firearms license.

Quote

On the contrary, the guy could have been an excellent marksmen. The first instinct with a handgun is two in the chest, well practiced in the Mozambique (Failure) Drill. The purpose of the two in the chest is not to kill, but to stun. After danger is eliminated, take a well placed shot to the skull to finish the target off. If this guy entered a room full of hostiles, he'd be pumping rounds into their chests to throw them off balance, then following it up with a shot to the head. If this gun had an expanding bullet, something with a softer core, there would have been a MUCH higher death toll.

You are probably right on the money with this one. I guess I had and epic brain fart since this is I was instructed to do for self defense when I took a CCW course. Well except of course for the follow up head shot.

Vigilous, on 06 November 2009 - 06:57 PM, said:

So it's stinky because he used a weapon NOT officially used by US forces? You're clearly reading too much into it. Also, he was using two firearms simultaneously, not just one.


EDIT


You are correct, sir. Now, MPs might have had a clue if this guy was staying in the barracks and he signed out his weapons from the company armorer, however he lived off post, so he was not required to check them in.



That and he was just told in a performance review that he sucks as a psychiatrist. And he did scream, "God is grrrrrrrrrrrreat!" before killing the only two armed MPs at the crime scene.

I don't think it stinks because he is using a weapon that isn't utilized by the military. Anyone with $1000 (I don't exaggerate on the price of this) burning a hole in his pocket can pick one up a 5-7 at any gun store. I did correct myself in a later post about him using a second pistol. a .357 from what I've heard. What I find fishy is that he would all of a sudden go psycho upon learning about his imminent deployment. Well have to wait and see if he had been showing signs of a predisposition towards committing this crime, so far I've heard nothing pertaining to that. Depending on how long ago he had bought the 5-7 may raise some questions. The only reason I can think of for him using a 5-7 is for it's anti-armor properties. But even then I'm still hard pressed to think of why to use a 5-7. He could have easy bought a Springfield XD in .45 ACP and then could have used hollow points and still have enough left over to get a cheap pump action or semi-auto shotgun which he could have sawed off for just as much effect. I dunno though, a few details just don't seem to add up. But it's just a gut feeling, and like I said earlier I don't believe it's a conspiracy.

And I'm pretty depressed about the 12 dead soldiers and 1 dead civilian as well Phlow.

This post has been edited by Keylime: 06 November 2009 - 10:03 PM

[Vigilous]

Quote

What I find fishy is that he would all of a sudden go psycho upon learning about his imminent deployment. Well have to wait and see if he had been showing signs of a predisposition towards committing this crime, so far I've heard nothing pertaining to that.

Then you need to actually look. Numerous reports have already come out hat says he's been posting fundamentalist rhetoric on websites and instigating fights with soldiers returning home from Iraq. There's also video of him attending a DoD conference about the war in Iraq, where he was apparently belligerent with attendees and speakers.

Quite honestly, you're reading too much into the weapons he used. Clearly he didn't care about it since he was firing two handguns. Any trained marksman will tell you, that only works in Hollywood. And since he was a trained marksmen, he knew he wouldn't be able to accurately fire both simultaneously. In short, he was out of his goddamn mind.

[Keylime]

To be frank you're more than likely right Vigilous. A bored mind with too much thinking time I suppose.

[Demonsquall]

I read somewhere that he purchased the 5-7 at least 4 months before the shooting, not sure how accurate that is but I beleive I heard that on the news also.

[Cruzandercerberus]

Phlow, on 06 November 2009 - 11:45 PM, said:

Blame for this is falling squarely on his superiors and others who turned a blind eye to a protected minority class because it was just easier to ignore the problem rather than address it and face possible actions that could stain one's career for political correctness.

cidbahamut, on 06 November 2009 - 11:10 AM, said:

I always figured it had more to do with the crappy third world environment they lived in.
Then again you're the one with first hand experience so maybe you can clue me in as to how much of it is their religion and how much of it has to do with living in rubble and not having all the comforts of modern society.

Chicken or the egg. They lived in crappy conditions because they had a totalitarian leader who decided that it was better to promote pan-arab nationalism (reestablishing the caliphate) through violence than have his people live in modern conditions.

[Keylime]

http://www.facebook....68609770&ref=mf

I lol'd so hard at this.

[Demonsquall]

What the fuck? They act like christians have never snapped and lost their shit. That makes me hate all religion all the more. Except pastafarian's those guys have guts.

[Mythx]

Cruzandercerberus, on 06 November 2009 - 01:59 AM, said:

http://www.cnn.com/2...ings/index.html






Religion of peace strikes again.

Guess he really was an army of one.

[Osvaldo]

I just think he was tired of a lot of the pressure of being in the military as a Psychiatric Officer. Religion may have been part of his reasons, but just an add on. He may have been a bad shot as well; he may have been trained like to mandatory requirements, but it's easier to hit standing targets than actual people no matter his score on the range. A Major isn't as skilled as people think either; it's basically a SPC with Rank. ( At least in half cases ) I'm not sure what deployment term he's been in, but he was probably just not built to take the pressure and things that come with one, and having to try to help other Soldiers who have been traumatized by Combat sure as hell wouldn't have helped his mindset. In no way does it justify his shootings though. And no, Army soldiers cannot draw weapons from the armory unless they are partaking in an event that requires it, and even then, cannot carry ammo as it has to be given out at that event on range. But, most military Soldiers have interest in weapons, so most have their own personal collection along with ammo.

[Vigilous]

Interesting theory, but you're clearly missing some facts we've already covered. His marksmanship level had nothing to do with how he fired. He was firing two hand guns at once, one of which was a semi-automatic. And it clearly was religiously motivated, because he had been building up to it for months and even shouted, "God is great!" when he opened fire. If he was truly spooked about being deployed, guess what: he was a psychiatrist. He would know all the mental health loopholes to keep himself from going there without killing people. Hell, if he was so adamant about not going, he could have at some point submitted the Pussy Form to have his status changed to contentiousness objector. There's quite a few commanders that would make someone stay back on Rear D, not so much for the sake of the soldier, but the others in the unit. Granted, changing your status to that requires an investigation - and proof - however a commander might still have the soldier stay back while the matter was resolved.

The Army regs state that soldiers who live on post must surrender all their personal weapons to the unit armory and must sign them out whenever they plan on using them. It's up to the unit or garrison commander's discretion whether or not soldiers living off post must also surrender their weapons. Odds are, after this, almost every post is going to start utilizing that discretion.

EDIT:

I haven't seen anything about his full service record yet, but odds are, since he's a psychiatrist, he went to school for seven years. Because of that, and the high demand the Army has for mental health facilitators, he probably was given the rank of major as soon as he completed basic and officers' school, since promotion points for that MOS are probably ridiculously low.