[pathwriter]

The fundamental error is in assuming that children are somehow stupid. Human children are anything but, though adults tend to think otherwise in hopes that they'll forget all the potential they've drowned. They might not respond to the same kind of reasoning that an adult would, but even on that count, the sorts of reasoning that a 15 y/o, a 30 y/o, and a 60 y/o would respond to can be radically different. Would a quick swat to the behind to get a kid's attention be effective? Sure. Using pain as a deterrent, on the other hand, doesn't even work in rational adults.

And, seriously, if we were blood-related, you'd just sit back and accept if I clocked you for irritating me? I'm a damned ornery person, you would quickly learn to hate me, blood or no blood, after the third time I rattled your teeth for no good reason. Check your logic here because a huge proportion of murders happen among close relations.

[Phlow]

pathwriter, on 30 November 2009 - 03:26 PM, said:

Human children are anything but, though adults tend to think otherwise in hopes that they'll forget all the potential they've drowned. They might not respond to the same kind of reasoning that an adult would, but even on that count, the sorts of reasoning that a 15 y/o, a 30 y/o, and a 60 y/o would respond to can be radically different.

So you're telling me that a 5 y/o will have the same long term goals as a 30 y/o? Not sure about you, but when I was a kid, I hated brushing my teeth. You could tell me that they would rot and fall out of my head. You can describe the unimaginable pain of a root canal. You you bring in Bozo the clown and smack him in the mouth with a ball-peen hammer. It wouldn't matter because not only did it not affect me, it didn't affect me at that immediate place and time.

We're creatures of instinct with a dash of cognition mixed in. Until that gray matter starts to develop and empathize, it's essential to make them aware that even their long-term decisions can have short-term consequences. Am I saying that a good ole beating is the only method of reinforcement? No, otherwise you condition a response to avoid short-term consequences.

Quote

And, seriously, if we were blood-related, you'd just sit back and accept if I clocked you for irritating me? I'm a damned ornery person, you would quickly learn to hate me, blood or no blood, after the third time I rattled your teeth for no good reason. Check your logic here because a huge proportion of murders happen among close relations.

You got the situation wrong. If we were blood related, would you be more inclined or less inclined to take physical action against me if I was "failing to comply" and you were the authority figure (that's right. I just called Ono my daddy)? If a parent spanks a child for not obeying the rules, then is it the same as a police officer tazing someone who refuses to put their hands behind their back?

Also, spousal and family member homicide take up about 15% of the relationship data (http://www.ojp.usdoj...elationship.htm) with only 8% of that being blood related, so given the remaining 85%, I don't think it's completely off base for me to state that a person would be less likely to kill a blood related family member.

[pathwriter]

Phlow, on 01 December 2009 - 02:35 PM, said:

So you're telling me that a 5 y/o will have the same long term goals as a 30 y/o?

Um... you got that completely backwards. I was saying that all ages are capable of responding to reason (except infants, and that's just a communication barrier), but what motivates a child is not what motivates a teenager, an adult, or a senior citizen. Look at the healthcare debate: kids and young adults are rather lukewarm about it, the damned Boomers are at one anothers' throats, and the seniors are gearing up to go to war.

Rather than continue this back-and-forth that probably isn't going to go anywhere, let's go distinctly 20th century on this subject: did your parents use pain as punishment and do you use violence as a negotiating tool? My parents didn't hit me and the few people who've been stupid enough to pick a fight with me were soon intimidated enough to back down long before I felt the instinct to throw a punch (don't ask me how I'm intimidating, but I apparently scare the crap out of people). My brothers are the same way. We all have mouths on us, but none of us has gotten into a fight with another person since we were little kids.

Let's return to the original topic of the thread, though. Violence begets violence and non-violence begets non-violence. Would it have been better to have hit the kid in the article to "teach" him, only to have him harbor both resentment for it and an imprinted idea that violence solves problems, thus he'd throw his mother down the stairs to get his video game console? I'm not pretending that it was the right thing to call 911, but let's not pretend we all haven't escalated well beyond the bounds of a given situation. In terms of escalation, getting the police involved and listening when they do arrive sounds a lot better than finding daddy's gun and pretending that we're playing Modern Warfare 2 and the bedroom is a Russian airport.

[Chriscoffey]

You both can go back and forth on this matter but both are right in a sense. I think everyone is different and some can fall in subjective cliques by a psychological nature but for alot of people it comes down to this : does the consequence of your actions at that current time elude to an action against you that is very much bad or so intense that it defines you as a human to learn better?

I know for myself that this time out and go to your corner crap never would have worked on me. I always was hell growing up but i learned later in life to have a better and wiser outlook through life's experiences. All things in life are learning and some kids are receptive to some behavior and others, like myself, will fight tooth and nail to go against it growing up. I don't agree in beating a kid to death but neither do i agree with disrespecting others and elders that mostly should teach their young better.

I know for one that this is very much in case for parents of their children. I mean children were raised for thousands of years by this so called "physical abuse" and although some of it being too extreme how come we as a society think we can change everything in a day for the better?

I agree with both of you on different levels but it really come down to each person's individual reaction to the consequence and if they "learn" something or they just "dismiss" it as not bad enough to warrant them stopping.

Edit: I remember calling my grandma a very bad thing one time and a few times because i was just cocky and thought I was above the world in listening. I had to talk to counselors and other people to try to "learn" to be better to my grandma since she was raising me after adoption. I was that cocky teenager who didn't listen to anyone. I think this was short lived because one day my uncle heard me say something to her and he came in the room and took his hand and lifted me up against the wall. It was also at this time that he looked me into the eye and as straight as anyone can tell a person the truth to say if i didn't respect my grandma more he would break my neck and end my life.

I think from that point on i never did disrespect her again and still to this day i never will. I have saw, being older now, the stupidity in my actions and being a stupid kid but at that time i didn't see it back then. What i saw is being dead from not listening to my uncle put this so called "fear" you so rightly down to teach me to quit being an asshole. I think each child is different but that's what it took for me to stop my stupidity when younger. Everyone learns as they grew up and some are just hell on wheels like i am. I know several kids that are fine without ever having any corporal punishment. I also know several, like myself, that if we didn't and had that consequence i speak of we would be VERY much on the wrong path of how we should have turned out. I am glad i got my ass whipped for being stupid and ignorant as a child growing up. I can't say everyone does but i am glad i was else i wouldn't have learned just how stupid I was back then. Different strokes for different folks.

[Cruzandercerberus]

pathwriter, on 01 December 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

Rather than continue this back-and-forth that probably isn't going to go anywhere, let's go distinctly 20th century on this subject: did your parents use pain as punishment and do you use violence as a negotiating tool? My parents didn't hit me and the few people who've been stupid enough to pick a fight with me were soon intimidated enough to back down long before I felt the instinct to throw a punch (don't ask me how I'm intimidating, but I apparently scare the crap out of people). My brothers are the same way. We all have mouths on us, but none of us has gotten into a fight with another person since we were little kids.

Most people are cowards.

[BunkMonk]

I was spanked as a child, and I see nothing wrong with that. Now I'm talking strictly being spanked. My sisters and I were never pushed, smacked, punched or anything else. This wasn't the punishment for everything, but if we did something horrible we knew what would be coming. My parents also had two paddles if we had been absolute shits, and those things could strike fear into the worst of kids.

As an adult, I definitely do not have a violent streak. And if I have kids down the road, I will keep swats in my bag of tricks.

It seems that a lot of people associate corporal punishment with a full-blown ass beating. That's not fair at all. There are obviously a ton of kids who are raised in homes where they are constantly being beaten, and that is awful. I think these are the cases that mold a kid and make them develop into violent adults.

Anyway, as for the kid in the OP's story, what an idiot. Any 15-year old should know by now that 9-1-1 is not their backup when they have toys taken away. Oh kids these days......such a sad thing.

[Varizen]

I hate getting late in on these debates... Anyway, I'm more so inclined to agree with Ono as to the fact it isn't necessary to actually beat a child or violently discipline them. However, How you discipline a child, as I've noticed in my years observing parents (I work at a children's museum after all.) isn't the problem; the problem is the inherit lack of discipline to begin with. Punishing children has become so taboo in modern America. Modern parenting is smothering a child in love no matter what they do and the lack of corporal punishment has been horribly mistranslated into an actual fear to punish a child at all. Parents are afraid of they punish the child, they won't love them anymore. They're afraid to lose their child's friendship and what not. Worse still are parents who think that yelling alone will control a child. They have a lot of bark but no bite. Parents don't exert authority and as such the child comes to have no respect for them because they know their parent will do nothing.

Here's a real world observation I made a short time ago (October). I went to the Dentist's office for my usual check up every six months. While I was waiting for my appointment, There was this mom across the room from me. She was probably late 20s. She had a baby girl that was by my count 4 months old or so. She also had a son who was probably... around 3. Well. He was being rambunctious. Really he seemed to be acting like a normal boy about his age. He was playing a bit loud, and them he started to run around and get annoying. His mother ignored him, and continued to focus her attention exclusively on the baby. For the record, she was holding the baby in her arms with a baby carrier next to her. Anyway, the boy continues to escalate and begins doing some tumbling and jumping on furniture. About the time he made a noise pushing a chair, she looked up, and said "Son, stop." She didn't use his name, just his relationairy title. There was also no force or power in her voice. He ignored her. For what I estimate as a reasonable measurement... This went on for maybe 6 minutes. It felt like about 15 to me watching this, but it was realistically about 6. She would say stop with not even an ounce of hesitation from her son. What's worse was she rarely even looked up to tell him, She stared at the baby nearly the entire time this unfolded. Personally I was thinking "Put down the damn baby and go manhandle the kid and teach him some you can't be hyperactive all the time" (I'm not a big proponent of how much elementary education is aimed towards the way girls function and the whole explosion of ADHD and stuff, but still, boys have to learn to behave in public). Anyway, about 6 minutes in, he starts tumbling on the floor, and she starts the ever dreaded "Count to 3" ritual. Now, I hate this ritual because this proves my point that parents fear punishing kids. She started counting, and got to 2. She then stopped, and watched him continue to to ignore her. She watches him for a whole minute after saying the word 2. No response from the boy. Finally, she tries to persuade him to come over to her and sit down and come to time out. Nothing. She finally starts to say she'll take one of his toys away, and then he somewhat concedes... except while he was in time out... what does she do? She gives him his toy.

First, I'd like to say the whole point of punishment is to make a child at a young age to associate a bad behavior with an unpleasant sensation. It's basic conditioning. It's regular psychology. I'd like to go on to state Time Out is not a punishment that works until around 6 or 7 (and it's a short live punishment in terms of effectiveness) because you want a child to reflect on the behavior and why it's bad as to why it ended him up in that situation. At the age of 3... a child does NOT have the mental capability to reflect on why his behavior is bad. He isn't going to understand.

Finishing the story though, I finally get called in for my exam, and when I left, my mother was sitting in the same spot I was (she was scheduled for a later appointment than me, so we came in separately.) and she was watching as this situation continued to unfold with little change. He'd only been in Time Out for about 2 minutes before his mother let him go, and continued to focus only on the baby before I went in for my exam. Well... The kid was now playing with the door and slamming it. I exchanged pleasantries with my mother, left, and later that night asked her what she thought of the situation, and she told me "Oh thank god you felt that way too, I Thought I was turning into a cranky old woman."

But this kid had no fear or respect for his mother because she wasn't going to do anything. This is sort of a worse case scenario, but I've observed similar things repeatedly working at the museum and when I was at Wal-Mart. It's not the method of punishment. It's just the fact parent s are afraid to actually administer a punishment at all. There's no Discipline. I used to really like watching The Dog Whisperer, and I think Caesar Milan is one of the greatest men to ever grace this planet. But I hate watching it sometimes now because of his clients. It's really the same deal. People afraid to discipline their small dogs because they're cute and their afraid to hurt their feelings. People honestly treat their dogs like their children sometimes, so I think in a way, it's slightly reasonable to agree this is a reflection on just what I'm talking about. Like Ono says, you don't have to strike a child to discipline them. But you do have to let the child know who's in control, and be unafraid to act as you need too. And people just don't want to do that.

[Velhart]

For a child that was around 3 years old, she should of just taken him out back and spanked him. I think that is ok for people around his age. After you spank him, let him cry it out for a few minutes, then when he starts calming down, sit him down and explain why you had to do that. In all fairness to the child, he is not 100% on what is right and wrong and sometimes actions like that are the best way to make them understand.

It is like a dog, the dog poops on your carpet right infront of you, you dicipline him for doing it, the dog knows not to poop in the area and eventually learns to go out and do it.

You need to have you're children respect you before they become you're friend. Whenever I have a child, I will work on the fear, then the love. ;D

[Levian]

pathwriter, on 25 November 2009 - 02:42 PM, said:

If we put aside all this debate, though, the question of corporal punishment becomes "When is enough?" A swat to the behind would get the point across the first time, I'm sure, but most of the "pain" is surprise and shock. After a couple such attacks, particularly with the padding of clothing, there is no meaningful effectiveness left and, thus, harsher methods must be employed. It's no surprise, then, that mothers who admit to spanking their kids are also about three times more likely to escalate to abuse (caveat: talking about a jump from 2% to 6%). Sooner or later you have to leave someone bloody and unable to sit down for a week, is the point, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that. Even then, humans can adapt to almost any kind of pain given time and motivation, though they might just skip the adaptation and murder their parents first.

I know it's late but... you ask the wrong question. It isn't "When is it enough?" It's more like, "Is this method working?" Once it gets to the point where you have to do more than leave a red mark that will disappear in 30 minutes or less to get the point across, it's pretty clear that a new method of discipline needs to be invented. Sometimes it's as easy as shifting to a more tender area like the back of the thighs, sometimes it's more complex like standing in a corner while holding heavy things at arm's length or raking the yard with a salad fork. Or even rewarding good behavior or giving lengthy and boring speeches in regards to the bad behavior.

Simply put, the best method is that which is generating results. Too much time with any one method will bring about desensitization to the method, thus reducing or eliminating it's effectiveness. To truly be effective you've got to switch it up and be creative.

[Boss Rockius]

I tried writing out a post to contribute to this topic but in the end, I think this clip right here summarizes what I wanted to say perfectly. I tried embedding it but I can't seem to get it to skip to the part I want with the embed so here's the full link.



.. ;]

[crypt]

I say we all go around bitch slapping kids for the parents.
That'll teach em!

[Keylime]

Since I don't have kids yet, I'll skip the hypothetical shit.

From my personal experience I was only paddled twice as a child. The first time for trying to stick a fork in an electrical socket, and the second for punching my dad in the balls. But both times after the paddling he sat me down and explained to me why I shouldn't do that. He wasn't the best father in the world, not by a long shot, but I approve of his punishment method. Save the paddling for moments of severe disobedience and then explain to the kid what they did was wrong and why. Otherwise when I was bad I would be given time outs for long periods of time, or grounded, or had my toys taken away. But personally nothing achieved the results of being paddled.