[Virginia]

aren't there any more DRKs?

[Tomasello]

Why do equally geared WARs always do more dmg than equally geared DRKs? Why wouldn't SE balance the DD jobs?

[Madawc]

When the game was released DRK and PLD had more MP then RDM, and the Lv cap was 50. DRK has higher Ele magic skill then RDM still.

At this time when DRK had no haste and alot of MP you could toss in a nuke/drain between swings. Dark Knight was in a way balanced with other melee jobs.

After some time SE decided to reduce DRK and PLD MP pool and boost RDM MP. And after a while SE introduced genkai and the Lv75 cap. But SE neglected to develop DRK. Magic fell behind. Later patches introduced some absorb fixes and Drain2 in an attempt to balance DRK.

The end result is a job with broken skills never used since Lv50 cap.

The fix is easy but SE never want's to fix DRK tho:
-Reduce cost and casting time of elemental spells for DRK and more Magic Accuracy.
-Another ability: 2% Souleater 3min duration, 5min recast, which shares recast timer with 10% Souleater.
-EnDark spell
-Melee/Magic stance like Hasso/Seigan. Melee Stance: +STR/DEX/VIT/Atk/Acc/Def, Magic Stance: +INT/MND/Matk/Macc/Mdef/Meva. 1min recast, 2hour duration.

[Tomasello]

Here's what I think would "fix" DRK and definitely not break the job and why:

1) All absorb spells and Dread Spikes have thier casting time changed to .5 second like Stun. MP/Recast stays the same.

(So we don't lose swings when we use our magic abilities.)


2) Souleater when used with a Multihit WS only drains HP from the first hit but retains the full multihit add on dmg.

(So using Souleater > Guillotine isn't so mp spongy).


3) A boost to WS dmg either native or with an added ability.

(The bottom line is our weaponskills can't compete with Raging Rush / King's Justice and it needs to be fixed)



Melee dmg/hits seem on par with the parses I've seen but where we get crushed is the dmg output on weaponskills.


In my opinion anyway.....

[Argettio]

Tomasello, on 06 December 2009 - 12:37 PM, said:

Here's what I think would "fix" DRK and definitely not break the job and why:

1) All absorb spells and Dread Spikes have thier casting time changed to .5 second like Stun. MP/Recast stays the same.

(So we don't lose swings when we use our magic abilities.)


2) Souleater when used with a Multihit WS only drains HP from the first hit but retains the full multihit add on dmg.

(So using Souleater > Guillotine isn't so mp spongy).


3) A boost to WS dmg either native or with an added ability.

(The bottom line is our weaponskills can't compete with Raging Rush / King's Justice and it needs to be fixed)



Melee dmg/hits seem on par with the parses I've seen but where we get crushed is the dmg output on weaponskills.


In my opinion anyway.....

1. yes please
2. useful at times, but I like being able to transfer 48% of my HP into pain (when the situation allows)
3. SE really messed up with Insurgency, most other DDs got a WS that is as good/better than existing WS (DRG, WAR) or improved utility/situational use (SAM, MNK). All we get is Guillotine -1 that can close light.

[pathwriter]

Argettio, on 07 December 2009 - 05:02 AM, said:

3. SE really messed up with Insurgency, most other DDs got a WS that is as good/better than existing WS (DRG, WAR) or improved utility/situational use (SAM, MNK). All we get is Guillotine -1 that can close light.

Not sure what you're talking about with regards to Ascetic's Fury. It's exactly the same thing: Howling Fist -1 that can close Light (on the opposite side of Dragon Kick, but big whoop).

As for what has happened to all the Dark Knights... one word: Colibri. Not that anyone ever invited Dark Knights for their various flavors of debilitating magic, but it is a bit if a kick to the testicles. Moreover, though, piercing damage keeps getting elevated higher and higher within the player community. Warriors are clinging to life if only because parties need Provoke and it hasn't been viable for most DDs to sub Warrior for years. Personally, I liked having a good Dark Knight in my parties on Ninja, even if it did mean eating an occasional Stun after the Dark Knight had insured that I didn't eat Pecking Flurry instead.

People who talk about damage output are blowing smoke. It matters to a very, very small subset of players, but the majority are fixated on piercing damage and forever fighting Colibri. Dedicated players of other jobs still exist, as I'll regularly see Dark Knights and Monks leveling up, but a recent Japanese party I was in referred to this game as コリブリ<Fantasy> for a reason. Add in that most people seem to consider merits to be the ultimate goal of the game and it has really dumbed down the diversity that would otherwise exist.

[Dartalion]

pathwriter, on 07 December 2009 - 05:48 AM, said:

Not sure what you're talking about with regards to Ascetic's Fury. It's exactly the same thing: Howling Fist -1 that can close Light (on the opposite side of Dragon Kick, but big whoop).

As for what has happened to all the Dark Knights... one word: Colibri. Not that anyone ever invited Dark Knights for their various flavors of debilitating magic, but it is a bit if a kick to the testicles. Moreover, though, piercing damage keeps getting elevated higher and higher within the player community. Warriors are clinging to life if only because parties need Provoke and it hasn't been viable for most DDs to sub Warrior for years. Personally, I liked having a good Dark Knight in my parties on Ninja, even if it did mean eating an occasional Stun after the Dark Knight had insured that I didn't eat Pecking Flurry instead.

People who talk about damage output are blowing smoke. It matters to a very, very small subset of players, but the majority are fixated on piercing damage and forever fighting Colibri. Dedicated players of other jobs still exist, as I'll regularly see Dark Knights and Monks leveling up, but a recent Japanese party I was in referred to this game as コリブリ<Fantasy> for a reason. Add in that most people seem to consider merits to be the ultimate goal of the game and it has really dumbed down the diversity that would otherwise exist.

People read bg too much. I will forever be a dark knight, Its my first love and will always remain that way. Sure people lvl war or sam and talk shit to the other dd jobs but I just smile and shrug it off. Its a game folks, play it right but play it your way and have fun. You know that fun thing right right right?

As for fixing drk, in my meager opinion we need another high lvl non meritable JA of some kind to enhance damage. Sam's get sek, give drk something. Nothing crazy but something. Having no new JA's until you hit merits is just stupid. Now, about ws damage, hit up mmjs and its pretty even with other jobs, in fact its better than drg even with drakes if you're geared properly, but war does beat us pretty consistently.

But my BIGGEST problem is with how SE handled drk and souleater. It really is one powerful JA but its far far far too detrimental to the party to use it every 5 min. Even a good mage will run out of mp if you ride SE (non relic). I like the idea of SE only draining hp for the first hit, but yea like that will every happen :/

Oh well, i'm still going to finish my golden can opener no matter what anyone on bg or anywhere says, drk is still my fav job in the game. 36 jades to go........... /sigh

[Argettio]

pathwriter, on 07 December 2009 - 05:48 AM, said:

Not sure what you're talking about with regards to Ascetic's Fury. It's exactly the same thing: Howling Fist -1 that can close Light (on the opposite side of Dragon Kick, but big whoop).

Ok, I will admit I'm not overly knowledgeable about MNK, but the MNKs I do know seem to like the new WS, so I based it on that.

Any way to continue the discussion:

I agree with the statements made on BG, Max a WAR and Max a DRK and WAR>DRK in terms of pure damage.

The problem is the rest of the community has take then statement out of context and reduced it to WAR or SAM > all. To the point you will see a SAM with Namikirimaru and no 6hit get an invite loooong before a DRK with E.body/Homam/perdu/heca etc.

When you are dealing with non-maxed out players (99.9999% of the time) you need to pick jobs based on their gear and skill, which is what a lot of people seem to forget. TBH I have stopped inviting SAMs to merits (unless I know them) as most of them are incredible gimps all riding the bandwagon.

Not being able to use magic on the most common exp mob does reduce some of DRKs power, but even given the chance to cast, it is often worthless (better to swing again).

[Dartalion]

Argettio, on 07 December 2009 - 08:41 AM, said:

Ok, I will admit I'm not overly knowledgeable about MNK, but the MNKs I do know seem to like the new WS, so I based it on that.

Any way to continue the discussion:

I agree with the statements made on BG, Max a WAR and Max a DRK and WAR>DRK in terms of pure damage.

The problem is the rest of the community has take then statement out of context and reduced it to WAR or SAM > all. To the point you will see a SAM with Namikirimaru and no 6hit get an invite loooong before a DRK with E.body/Homam/perdu/heca etc.

When you are dealing with non-maxed out players (99.9999% of the time) you need to pick jobs based on their gear and skill, which is what a lot of people seem to forget. TBH I have stopped inviting SAMs to merits (unless I know them) as most of them are incredible gimps all riding the bandwagon.

Not being able to use magic on the most common exp mob does reduce some of DRKs power, but even given the chance to cast, it is often worthless (better to swing again).

It really makes me /sadface about drk magic and how actually casting hurts your total damage output. Just wrong on so many levels. Another thing is maybe give us a crit ws like drakes, RR, etc (previously stated i'm sure but just to reiterate)

[Hitoseijuro]

Argettio, on 07 December 2009 - 08:41 AM, said:

Ok, I will admit I'm not overly knowledgeable about MNK, but the MNKs I do know seem to like the new WS, so I based it on that.

Any way to continue the discussion:

I agree with the statements made on BG, Max a WAR and Max a DRK and WAR>DRK in terms of pure damage.

Is that taking into account whether or not the Drk would be using SE full time(w/ merits) ? Because when you put that into the equation it really does boost drk up to a whole new level. To the point where it could be Drk > War if not equal.

It would of been nice if Drk would of gotten either a piercing weapon, or a critical hit ws. Tbh scythe feels more of a piercing type than a slashing type imo. The point of the scythe is what makes contact into the enemy's body which pierces through first as it slices through after, but none the less it pierces first.

If I could have a change, I wish it was the duration on Last Resort, 1 minute duration would be nice, 30 seconds isnt enough at times. Probably change SE from 6 minutes to 5minutes, so the merit is 4:10 like almost all cat1 merits, Idk why SE made SE different.......esp on an ability where half if not more of the population cant even use it half the time.

[Foxdragoon]

I think a lot of what DRK "needs" could be solved by adding some more exp mobs that are not Piercing-Weak and are still fast/safe exp like birds are now.

[Firas]

accept it, DRK is for huge dmg in a short time i.e. zergs.

thats where DRKs stand out. as for normal melee. sure its a melee job, but not the best. WAR > DRK in merits, SAM > DRK on HNMs. MNK > DRK in salvage.
DRKs > all in einherjar.

damn we almost in 2010 and people still argue about this crap.

I do agree however, if DRKs make more of their spells, or just take them off, cus really they are an absolute waste for all the levels

[Hitoseijuro]

Firas, on 07 December 2009 - 10:08 PM, said:

thats where DRKs stand out. as for normal melee. sure its a melee job, but not the best. WAR > DRK in merits, SAM > DRK on HNMs. MNK > DRK in salvage.
DRKs > all in einherjar.

damn we almost in 2010 and people still argue about this crap.

You make it seem like the difference between them is huge in merits to the point where using or level one of the jobs over the other would be a waste. Outside of a weapon bonus they are going to come out to be close to one another atleast within 3% if not 5% within eachother. Gear tweaks and aggressive play is obviously going to push the other job further ahead than the other job.

[Firas]

one negative factor about DRKs is that they use MP; which tells the mages to give them more attention (refresh/ballad/roll). this is what makes DRKs the unfavored melee job when it comes to just doing damage.

when i am playing mage, i avoid getting DRKs in, cus it requires lots of work from me, and the DRK. just throw in some WARs and SAMs and i dont need to give them special care.

[Greeber]

Argettio, on 07 December 2009 - 08:41 AM, said:

When you are dealing with non-maxed out players (99.9999% of the time) you need to pick jobs based on their gear and skill, which is what a lot of people seem to forget. TBH I have stopped inviting SAMs to merits (unless I know them) as most of them are incredible gimps all riding the bandwagon.

The quality of players has gone way down in recent years mainly because of level sync/AFB's/and the abundence of PL partys. Most ppl now could care less about their gear/skill since they take w/e level sync party they can just to get to 75, then when their compared to ppl that have spent years perfecting their job they wonder why they suck lol.

I feel ppl need to stop comparing jobs and start comparing ppl. TBH the quality of players have gotten so low that i dont even need spectacular gear/merits to out dmg most of what anyone would call the average sam or war. Mainly cause these sams/wars are all IR gear, fulltime str rings and uncapped combat skills hard to even WS on every merit mob. Hell i could ws in just my idel set, use no ja's/magic's and id still be the major dmg output of the party. Rarely u get lucky enough to party with friends/ppl who know what their doing and actually feel like u have to work to be the top DD in the party.

[Argettio]

While agree with your point, I don't think levelsync or AFB is the reason for the the people being bad at their jobs.

If some one offered to AFB my SAM to 75, I would spend the next week in Kuftal tunnel working on my GKT skill, unlocking WSNM, unlocking mythic WS, Polearm skill etc before I would even admit to any one that I had a SAM.

When I dinged 75 BLM I didn't tell any one until I had capped group 1 merits, picked up at least a few decent AH items (sorc ring, ugg pendent etc) and got some acceptable sets together.

But that's because I care about my jobs, and try to do the best I can. That has nothing to do with how I leveled and all to do with how I play the game.

Some people don't care, and so don't gear themselves well (which is fine imo).

The people that I truly hate are those that are rubbish but think they are shit hot.

[synthetic]

Tomasello, on 06 December 2009 - 08:13 AM, said:

Why do equally geared WARs always do more dmg than equally geared DRKs? Why wouldn't SE balance the DD jobs?

my drk does better than my equally geared war...

[Rikkitikkitavi]

synthetic, on 08 December 2009 - 11:34 AM, said:

my drk does better than my equally geared war...

And drk has way more versatility. War is pretty outdated in my mind.

[Khuji]

synthetic, on 08 December 2009 - 11:34 AM, said:

my drk does better than my equally geared war...

A somewhat decent, competent WAR will outparse an above-par DRK. Either you're extremely lazy when playing WAR or you're giving us false info. I'm gonna go with the latter.

[Khuji]

Rikkitikkitavi, on 08 December 2009 - 11:41 AM, said:

And drk has way more versatility. War is pretty outdated in my mind.

Versatility for what? A WAR can tank just as good if not better than a DRK. However, the DRK does have Drain/2 and Dread spikes to help.