[Foxdragoon]

I know this has been talked about a lot, but I did not see any recent/helpful discussions on the topic so here it goes:

I recently reactivated my account and I currently have most of the currency I need to complete a relic weapon. I had planned to complete an Amano but now it seems that Tomoe sams are the recent trend in merit parties. That being said, when I left the game a couple years ago the Amano seemed weaker than a hagun when up against HNMs. So I was wondering how Amanos currently stacked up to Tomoes and Haguns. Are Amanos better than Tomoes in merit or better than Hagun in HNM fights? I am worried that if I completed the Amano it would be outperformed by these weapons. I was also curious how the Amano stacked up to other relic weapons (purely melee DD relics) such as Apoc.

[pathwriter]

What kind of relics are there beyond "purely melee"? You mean Aegis and Gjallarhorn, I suppose, because even bloody Claustrum is a melee-only weapon.

Getting a relic weapon for merits is like buying a Ferrari to transport manure.

Tachi: Kaiten and Amanomurakumo add quite a lot to Samurai's flexibility, notably in being able to continue Light. Their damage is quite good and only gets better if, like most people, you only fight very high level monsters on an inconsistent basis.

In the long run, though, Amanomurakumo doesn't really change Samurai, except forcing some changes in a Store TP build and being less reliant on Accuracy from various gear slots. Against weaker mobs, Tomoe and Hagun manage to hold their own. It's not a revolutionary change. The relic weapons most likely to revolutionize the job that equips them are Yoichinoyumi (Namas Arrow totally changes how Samurai can be played, impact is less on Ranger), Excalibur (a massive change in damage output from Paladins), and Gjallarhorn (fucking kill yourself, you're never casting anything but Ballad ever again). Apocalypse and Bravura add interesting new tools to their jobs by way of their associated weaponskills. Everything else is pretty much "You'll do more damage," with a slight nod to Spharai in that it also improves a Monk's tanking capability and Aegis in that a Paladin can be more flexible with other gear worn.

Personally, if I had the currency sitting around, I'd seriously consider going after Yoichinoyumi before Amanomurakumo, but the bow is substantially more expensive than any other relic weapon.

[Cyprias]

If you really enjoy SAM you would get it regardless.

[Kaparu]

pathwriter, on 07 December 2009 - 03:36 AM, said:

What kind of relics are there beyond "purely melee"? You mean Aegis and Gjallarhorn, I suppose, because even bloody Claustrum is a melee-only weapon.

Getting a relic weapon for merits is like buying a Ferrari to transport manure.

Tachi: Kaiten and Amanomurakumo add quite a lot to Samurai's flexibility, notably in being able to continue Light. Their damage is quite good and only gets better if, like most people, you only fight very high level monsters on an inconsistent basis.

In the long run, though, Amanomurakumo doesn't really change Samurai, except forcing some changes in a Store TP build and being less reliant on Accuracy from various gear slots. Against weaker mobs, Tomoe and Hagun manage to hold their own. It's not a revolutionary change. The relic weapons most likely to revolutionize the job that equips them are Yoichinoyumi (Namas Arrow totally changes how Samurai can be played, impact is less on Ranger), Excalibur (a massive change in damage output from Paladins), and Gjallarhorn (fucking kill yourself, you're never casting anything but Ballad ever again). Apocalypse and Bravura add interesting new tools to their jobs by way of their associated weaponskills. Everything else is pretty much "You'll do more damage," with a slight nod to Spharai in that it also improves a Monk's tanking capability and Aegis in that a Paladin can be more flexible with other gear worn.

Personally, if I had the currency sitting around, I'd seriously consider going after Yoichinoyumi before Amanomurakumo, but the bow is substantially more expensive than any other relic weapon.

Pretty much this

[newzarb]

We tend to forget that, but thanks to the +13 dmg and -13 delay, Amano makes you hit a bit harder and faster than Hagun, also allowing you to WS slightly more often. With the +20 accuracy and the x2.5 procs, the melee damage output gets a big boost. Kaiten, with proper buffs, usually deals pretty good damage.

The only drawback I see is that Kaiten isn't good on HNMs like cerb/khim/tiamat, but as far as I know, it's a problem all relic WS have (gg SE).

I don't know how amano SAM compares to tomoe SAM in merit party because I merited maybe twice this year. Compared to a pimped out DRG, I can say that I got outparsed by something like 5-8%, which is pretty good considering he had piercing damage bonus. If that counts, I've also been able to outparse a Mandau THF by a few %.

Yoichinoyumi could be good aswell, but I don't know how good it does as SAM since our only member who had it quit the game quit soon after he got it.

It's all about your personal preference I guess. At least I can tell you that I love my Amano. ^^

[Foxdragoon]

pathwriter, on 07 December 2009 - 03:36 AM, said:

What kind of relics are there beyond "purely melee"? You mean Aegis and Gjallarhorn, I suppose, because even bloody Claustrum is a melee-only weapon.

Getting a relic weapon for merits is like buying a Ferrari to transport manure.

Tachi: Kaiten and Amanomurakumo add quite a lot to Samurai's flexibility, notably in being able to continue Light. Their damage is quite good and only gets better if, like most people, you only fight very high level monsters on an inconsistent basis.

In the long run, though, Amanomurakumo doesn't really change Samurai, except forcing some changes in a Store TP build and being less reliant on Accuracy from various gear slots. Against weaker mobs, Tomoe and Hagun manage to hold their own. It's not a revolutionary change. The relic weapons most likely to revolutionize the job that equips them are Yoichinoyumi (Namas Arrow totally changes how Samurai can be played, impact is less on Ranger), Excalibur (a massive change in damage output from Paladins), and Gjallarhorn (fucking kill yourself, you're never casting anything but Ballad ever again). Apocalypse and Bravura add interesting new tools to their jobs by way of their associated weaponskills. Everything else is pretty much "You'll do more damage," with a slight nod to Spharai in that it also improves a Monk's tanking capability and Aegis in that a Paladin can be more flexible with other gear worn.

Personally, if I had the currency sitting around, I'd seriously consider going after Yoichinoyumi before Amanomurakumo, but the bow is substantially more expensive than any other relic weapon.

Ty newzarb and path. And realistically just "really liking" sam is not a great reason to run out and spend tens of millions of gil's worth of currency on a relic item. I love sam, it is by far my favorite job, but spending on an item I may never use is not that bright. I know amano doesn't change how sam is played. Most relics don't change how the job is played. And honestly I am happy with how sam is played already. What I am looking to do is to play sam BETTER, though. And the obvious answer to whether amano makes a sam better is "yes, of course." But right now I don't know if that is true because if tome is better than amano in exp and hagun is better on hnms then I would never use the Amano except for the wow factor, which frankly is stupid. So I am still really wondering if Amano beats tomoe or hagun. And correct me if I am wrong but for many other jobs their relics are certainly the best weapon for their jobs for most/all occassions. That is why I would consider picking a different relic if sam's amano is not even the best for any occassion. Any amano sams that could speak for how it parses relative against tomoe/hagun/relics?

[dragonclaw]

Quote

Yoichinoyumi could be good aswell, but I don't know how good it does as SAM since our only member who had it quit the game quit soon after he got it.

Quite good. In merit you can use soboro and absolutely spam 1k+ namas without getting hate and without much concern for ranged acc. Damage wise namas does less the sidewinder, but the fact that you have almost 0 enmity gain and isnt plagued by acc issues more then makes up for it. As for HNM/event, it can be useful, but depends on various factors.

[Arkanethered]

Amano Sams are outparsed by top-end drgs? What kind of gear are we talking about here?

On the topic of which relic / random stuff.... I have never been happier with my choice of apoc, even though my pld really whines about not taking up the excal/aegis at times. It completely changes the way that drk is geared / plays and has breathed new life into the job and game for me. I am not crusading for apoc as I know there are other great choices out there that probably do the same for their respected jobs. I have seen my parses vs. other well geared DD in merits, I have seen plds go afk while aegis tanking shit and I have seen a 7k+ barrage vs. Shadow Lord from an Yoichi.

I guess it all boils down to what you want to do in game... Which can really only be answered by you. ^^

[Rikkitikkitavi]

dragonclaw, on 07 December 2009 - 09:39 AM, said:

Quite good. In merit you can use soboro and absolutely spam 1k+ namas without getting hate and without much concern for ranged acc. Damage wise namas does less the sidewinder, but the fact that you have almost 0 enmity gain and isnt plagued by acc issues more then makes up for it. As for HNM/event, it can be useful, but depends on various factors.

I dunno about you, but I actually like having hate in merit pties. Then I don't have to run around and change positions to get my Overwhelm bonus. I just voke at the start, and penta for 2k np. Not like the birds gonna hurt me much in the 20 seconds that they stay alive.

[Cythriell]

Foxdragoon, on 07 December 2009 - 02:07 AM, said:

I know this has been talked about a lot, but I did not see any recent/helpful discussions on the topic so here it goes:

I recently reactivated my account and I currently have most of the currency I need to complete a relic weapon. I had planned to complete an Amano but now it seems that Tomoe sams are the recent trend in merit parties. That being said, when I left the game a couple years ago the Amano seemed weaker than a hagun when up against HNMs. So I was wondering how Amanos currently stacked up to Tomoes and Haguns. Are Amanos better than Tomoes in merit or better than Hagun in HNM fights? I am worried that if I completed the Amano it would be outperformed by these weapons. I was also curious how the Amano stacked up to other relic weapons (purely melee DD relics) such as Apoc.

From what I've seen Amano doesn't do much for SAM like other relics do for PLD, DRK, RNG, etc.

Also about Polearm, It's not only good in merit pt's, but it's insanely useful in Einherjar, Salvage and similiar stuff, being able to average 1400-1600 Penta's, I'm not sure Amano averages that much, nor do you get a 5 hit with it, or a 4 hit with SAM's roll.

And yes, you can be outperformed by these weapons, but the people holding the weapons are going to have a bigger impact on damage then the weapon's themselves. I would say Amano definitely is not better then an top tier polearm SAM in a bird pt, and maybe it is similar in Einherjar/Salvage etc. But afaik Amano ws' don't average 1.5k or come with 5 hit, the only benefit I'm seeing is much better DPS and the ability to continue light (which would screw up MBs). On stronger HNMs like Nidhogg, Khimmy, Lambton Worm. I doubt the extra damage you could do would matter as you're going to be holding back on damage at the same point as you would with a Hagun.

Yoichi can be great too, It definitely changes the way you're gunna play in situations you would use it on SAM. But as I said before it depends more on the person with the weapon then the weapon itself, as last pt I outparsed a yoichi SAM by about 10%.

edit:

Arkanethered, on 07 December 2009 - 10:22 AM, said:

Amano Sams are outparsed by top-end drgs? What kind of gear are we talking about here?

I think he meant on birds, which is entirely believable, from what I've seen of relic sam's it's not all it's hyped out to be.

[Foxdragoon]

Cythriell, on 07 December 2009 - 11:14 AM, said:

From what I've seen Amano doesn't do much for SAM like other relics do for PLD, DRK, RNG, etc.

Also about Polearm, It's not only good in merit pt's, but it's insanely useful in Einherjar, Salvage and similiar stuff, being able to average 1400-1600 Penta's, I'm not sure Amano averages that much, nor do you get a 5 hit with it, or a 4 hit with SAM's roll.

And yes, you can be outperformed by these weapons, but the people holding the weapons are going to have a bigger impact on damage then the weapon's themselves. I would say Amano definitely is not better then an top tier polearm SAM in a bird pt, and maybe it is similar in Einherjar/Salvage etc. But afaik Amano ws' don't average 1.5k or come with 5 hit, the only benefit I'm seeing is much better DPS and the ability to continue light (which would screw up MBs). On stronger HNMs like Nidhogg, Khimmy, Lambton Worm. I doubt the extra damage you could do would matter as you're going to be holding back on damage at the same point as you would with a Hagun.

Yoichi can be great too, It definitely changes the way you're gunna play in situations you would use it on SAM. But as I said before it depends more on the person with the weapon then the weapon itself, as last pt I outparsed a yoichi SAM by about 10%.

edit:

I think he meant on birds, which is entirely believable, from what I've seen of relic sam's it's not all it's hyped out to be.

Yeah this is exactly what I am talking about. I know there are Amano sams on the forums and I am really curious what they think about it in all honesty. I'd just hate to invest in it and then realize I'm going to be using a Tomoe/Hagun instead.

[newzarb]

Arkanethered, on 07 December 2009 - 10:22 AM, said:

Amano Sams are outparsed by top-end drgs? What kind of gear are we talking about here?

Quote

Compared to a pimped out DRG, I can say that I got outparsed by something like 5-8%, which is pretty good considering he had piercing damage bonus

But if you want to know, the DRG had stuff like Ace's helm, Ares cuirass, Homams, Vbelt, Valkyrie's fork etc. I'm not a specialist of DRGs, but I think that's some pretty good equipment. But if it isn't normal to be outparsed by a DRG on birds, then I guess I just suck.

[Foxdragoon]

newzarb, on 07 December 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

But if you want to know, the DRG had stuff like Ace's helm, Ares cuirass, Homams, Vbelt, Valkyrie's fork etc. I'm not a specialist of DRGs, but I think that's some pretty good equipment. But if it isn't normal to be outparsed by a DRG on birds, then I guess I just suck.

I totally missed the part of your sig that showed you had amano. Thought you were rocking a hagun. I'm assuming that for hnms you are using hagun with YGK and not amano with YGK? (aka amano only beats hagun when kaiten does good dmg?)

[Kaparu]

newzarb, on 07 December 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

But if you want to know, the DRG had stuff like Ace's helm, Ares cuirass, Homams, Vbelt, Valkyrie's fork etc. I'm not a specialist of DRGs, but I think that's some pretty good equipment. But if it isn't normal to be outparsed by a DRG on birds, then I guess I just suck.

I wouldn't say that getting outparsed by dragoons should be the norm, but a 5-hit Tomoe build shouldn't have any trouble at all.

In regard to the OP: If you like samurai, and want a weapon that's going to give your bang for your buck, go with Yoichi, and you won't be disappointed. And I don't believe it was brought up, but Namas Arrow also has a very, very large innate Racc bonus(~100).

[newzarb]

(Not sure it's clear that in this merit PT with the DRG and the Mandau THF, I was using Amano. It thought it was logical that I'd be outparsed by someone who has 25% dmg bonus + a pet but whatever)

Well anyway I don't have a Hagun anymore, but on HNM (Cerb/Khim/Tiamat/Odin/Lambton especially) I indeed use YGK most of the time.

[Cream Soda]

As far as birds go, screw a drg, lol I can't see an amano outparsing a tomoe sam.

[pathwriter]

Rikkitikkitavi, on 07 December 2009 - 11:09 AM, said:

I dunno about you, but I actually like having hate in merit pties. Then I don't have to run around and change positions to get my Overwhelm bonus. I just voke at the start, and penta for 2k np. Not like the birds gonna hurt me much in the 20 seconds that they stay alive.

This is the brilliance of Yoichinoyumi and spamming Namas Arrow, though: ranged weaponskills are not affected by Overwhelm. Yeah, it sorta sucks that you can't make use of one of the most broken merit traits in the game, but the combination of incredible TP gain with Soboro Sukehiro, strong WS damage that takes full advantage of piercing bonus, and almost zero hate (meaning that you can use better foods like Yellow Curry Buns) makes meriting with Yoichinoyumi a completely different game.

Again, though, getting a relic weapon for the sake of merits is just... Actually, with how irrelevant so many activities are becoming and how strong various weapons are, I find it harder and harder to justify any relic weapon unless you're a career Paladin in a 'shell that regularly challenges things like Pandemonium Warden, Jailer of Love, and Absolute Virtue.

[IronPandemonium]

amano = tomoe on weaker shit

amano = hagun on hnm

sentimental piece; if you're going to sink +150m into your samurai, get dusk gloves +1 and whatnot

THEN do amano when you have nothing left to get.


the jist of it is: relics are overrated <call5>

[Konda]

About the tomoe vs amano questions, I've just obtained 5/5 Usukane today(well, when update finishes), and a LS friend only needs attes to finish his Amano.
We're planning to parse full usu Tomoe SAM vs decked amano SAM (the only thing he doesnt have is hachi legs) to see how they compare.

I'm at a disadvantage with only a 4% haste belt so I may ask him to use swift belt (if he still has it) to make it a level playing field.

I do know that Tomoe SAM destroyed a pretty decked Apoc DRK on birds by a good 5-6%. (march/march/min/min/chaos/corsair's) with the SAM using crab sushi. The apoc DRK then quit the game, but that's a different story lol

It will be intersting to see how Amano stacks up vs tomoe on birds, but I know without the piercing bonus, it'll likely get destroyed.

[bigpapi]

/sigh I cant believe we're really having this conversation.

If the amano holder is not retarded he should be able to match or shit on anything else.

On HNM eat high end attack food, and probably mix and match for higher haste value while having higher accuracy, USE TACHI: GEKKO NOT KAITEN(most common mistake of amano user on high def HNMs)

I know amano might not change Sam like apoc chances DRK but once you get an amano you cannot just run around in full usu or mix and match eating pizza. Trust me i have played this game with awesome amano SAM and lackluster ones and the difference is enormous. Also pride hurts amano users a lot, not knowing when to polearm is a huge drawback for em, nothing makes me more happy then an amano SAM busting out a Tomoe on gears in salv

Rule of thumb for an amano SAM using polearm should be weak mob = amano, weak mob with piercing bonus = Tomoe, and honestly most don't even do it.