[KittyFatale]

so i was in my ls when i was talkign about leveling a new job. i currently have war sch blm rng drk @75. i was told u should level a healing job.

i was like wait i have sch.....

i leveled sch instead of redmage b/c i like the versatility to throw tier4 nukes as well as conserveMP when it comes to curing large parties.

but i was reminded. SCH doesnt have HASTE.

HASTE makes the world go round... how does one respond to that. cause i think most LS's would brefer BLM> SCH when it comes to nuking or sleepga2. and rdm or whm > sch for main healing b/c of haste.

[Prothescar]

As long as it doesn't stack with Accession, since that would be borked.

[Shirai]

As far as I am concerned, Scholar is extremely ballanced for teamplay.
Capable of healing, nuking, enfeebling and playing support roles but it is not designed to actually replace the jobs actually created to do so.
A capable scholar can make a lot of tasks easier for a lot of jobs but like many other jobs in endgame, only have a place when all necesarry slots are filled.

[UNCTGTG]

Shirai, on 09 December 2009 - 06:12 AM, said:

As far as I am concerned, Scholar is extremely ballanced for teamplay.
Capable of healing, nuking, enfeebling and playing support roles but it is not designed to actually replace the jobs actually created to do so.
A capable scholar can make a lot of tasks easier for a lot of jobs but like many other jobs in endgame, only have a place when all necesarry slots are filled.

Scholars are very much needed endgame, but let me say like others have said, does not replace other jobs.. They are excellent at support nuking and healing massive amounts of parties when things go bad.

[Banggugyangu]

in any situation where AOE damage in mass quantities isn't required, a competent SCH CAN replace a BLM. They shouldn't however. A SCH's output is merely amplified by a BLM in the party. Extra damage by hailstorm/thunderstorm that the BLM deals is merely a benefit of the SCH with him. Haste isn't everything, also. It's wonderful, and should be used when available, but won't make/break anything except shadow recasts.

[Kyte]

Except you know....losing out on mass quantities of damage. Not saying the job is lacking because of no Haste, because it most certainly isn't, but to downplay how important Haste can be is incredibly ignorant.

[Kikaru]

I am main sch in my ls and I find myself as a jack of all trades depending on what we are needing on site at the time. Early morning HNMs i find myself in a whm roll, in full alliances I am keeping stoneskin and 27 damage phalanx on tanks *5 fay staffs down and cant get past +6 enhancing *. AoE ice weather + klimaform is beastly on khim if I'm not needed in tank party but today we actually had a pld/war at khim tanking fine due to my buffs. Haste is rarely an issue because hopefully there is another back line job there to supply it when needed. Nuking will always be less than a blm but if I am in a pure nuking position I find myself capable of pounding in nukes almost twice as long before having to rest compared to the blms easily making up for the damage loss. The biggest issue in all of this is that in order to pull all these functions off sch is almost par on rdm for amount if gear carried and well built macros are a must.

[MattelotLeviathan]

Lack of Haste is one of the things holding me back from leveling Sch to 75. I asked my LS upon coming back and i'm told that Sch doesn't get many invites at all for end-game stuff or merits.

[Bikpik]

MattelotLeviathan, on 09 April 2010 - 05:46 AM, said:

Lack of Haste is one of the things holding me back from leveling Sch to 75. I asked my LS upon coming back and i'm told that Sch doesn't get many invites at all for end-game stuff or merits.

With the upcoming level cap raise, Sch will get access to haste as 80 Sch/Whm, so I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor in not leveling Sch. Right now, Sch can rival a Blm for nuking power, except on high level Wyrms (Fafnir, Jorm, Tiamat), but on lower HNMs Sch is actually more MP efficient and can do more dmg overtime than a blm.

[MattelotLeviathan]

Bikpik, on 09 April 2010 - 07:41 AM, said:

With the upcoming level cap raise, Sch will get access to haste as 80 Sch/Whm, so I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor in not leveling Sch. Right now, Sch can rival a Blm for nuking power, except on high level Wyrms (Fafnir, Jorm, Tiamat), but on lower HNMs Sch is actually more MP efficient and can do more dmg overtime than a blm.

I'm going to wait and see if Sch will for sure get access to Haste at 80. From what I read, SE is going to set some limitations to prevent "OPness." It's pretty vague of a response from what I got, but if Sch can get Haste, that would be outstanding.

Maybe I will level it for kicks but the LS i'm in, i've got nothing but negative answers and being told that you will sit out for Blms, Whms and Rdms often.

[Banggugyangu]

MattelotLeviathan, on 09 April 2010 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'm going to wait and see if Sch will for sure get access to Haste at 80. From what I read, SE is going to set some limitations to prevent "OPness." It's pretty vague of a response from what I got, but if Sch can get Haste, that would be outstanding.

Maybe I will level it for kicks but the LS i'm in, i've got nothing but negative answers and being told that you will sit out for Blms, Whms and Rdms often.

This just proves that your LS is ignorant. In a large majority of situations, SCH is extremely beneficial. In the majority of situations, SCH can essentially replace BLM to fill a nuking role, WHM and RDM to fill a healing role, and RDM to fill a debuffing role. Outside of that, SCH finds its own niche in buffing various jobs with buffs that either can't be acquired elsewhere, or aren't quite as potent.

If you're failing to level SCH because of a lack of haste, you are either: Only caring about your potential in meripo *which means you're not picky enough about meripo melees* or you and/or your LS have the wrong idea about what a SCH should be doing in the various events.

[rambus]

Banggugyangu, on 09 April 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

This just proves that your LS is ignorant. In a large majority of situations, SCH is extremely beneficial. In the majority of situations, SCH can essentially replace BLM to fill a nuking role, WHM and RDM to fill a healing role, and RDM to fill a debuffing role. Outside of that, SCH finds its own niche in buffing various jobs with buffs that either can't be acquired elsewhere, or aren't quite as potent.

If you're failing to level SCH because of a lack of haste, you are either: Only caring about your potential in meripo *which means you're not picky enough about meripo melees* or you and/or your LS have the wrong idea about what a SCH should be doing in the various events.

it can not replace RDM or WHM, it depends on the situation, SCH can not handle heavy spam AoE damage like KSNM 99 without CS stun when it flies, slow II with a good mind build can not be replaced.

I will agree with you a BLM can be completely replaced by a nuking sch however, plus it can buff other blms in that spot.

wonder how much this will change for the changing level caps though. To AoE haste you have to sub whm for haste at 80 witch means no MAB trait. you can do decent damage without that trait but dont expect to outnuke blms. I think people forget that SCH has no mab trait and something you consider on subs as you level. It doesn't matter that SCH is not highly wanted in merits, just be like a blm and nuke puddings ( though it may be hard pre 74 idk i didn t wanna do it without bliz IV since that is one of the few obis i got) saying no invites for endgame is however stupid, it has the best crowd control for dyna and limbus. It also gets higher enfeebling magic over blm easly. likei have tons of enf magic for blm and get 270, in 2 pieces for sch its 278 ( both jobs can be more i don't have skill on hand or cape and so forth). A lot of key parts though both jobs can wear so that does not matter much. 270+ skill is also plenty for a lot of things.

but ya overall what banggy said, your ls is ignorant, I had to deal with it in a limbus ls on asura.

but things can change in the future, who knows maybe blm get some high end nukes at 80 with sch being stuck at t IV and me be lol again, RDM could AoE gravity as 80 rdm/sch too, really dont know how things would change.

This post has been edited by rambus: 09 April 2010 - 12:22 PM

[Banggugyangu]

rambus, on 09 April 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

it can not replace RDM or WHM, it depends on the situation, SCH can not handle heavy spam AoE damage like KSNM 99 without CS stun when it flies, slow II with a good mind build can not be replaced.

I stated that it's situational, but I can count on 1 hand the number of events in which I would have difficulty replacing a WHM as healer or a RDM as debuffer. Obviously, slow 2 is extremely effective and we can't keep up with that, but there isn't exactly any event that relies 100% on slow 2 either. It's one of those "wonderful to have, but not necessary by any means" tools.

Quote

It doesn't matter that SCH is not highly wanted in merits, just be like a blm and nuke puddings ( though it may be hard pre 74 idk i didn t wanna do it without bliz IV since that is one of the few obis i got) saying no invites for endgame is however stupid

Perhaps I'm one of few, but my SCH is indeed highly wanted in meripo. At the same time, I'm highly exclusive as to what people I PT with. I'm a firm believer that one should not have to do extra to make up for another's shortcomings. I've capped out EXP/hr on colibri as SCH without haste. It's possible with the right melees. *I was actually killshot-ing about every other mob from ~30%* Albeit, this requires absolutely top-notch melees, top-notch support, and a SCH that can properly manage his own MP and stratagems charges. Every time I've done this, however, there has been almost no need for any type of curative spells.

I'll welcome haste as SCH/WHM, but the only time I see myself using that combo will be low-man or meripo.

*edit* on a side note, SCH/BLM will soon be opening itself up as a more viable combination. Stun is wonderful when used properly, and SCH will be able to reduce recast on it to almost its cap. /BLM will obviously never be as forgiving as /RDM, but I can see it working in some situations once we have stun from /BLM.

This post has been edited by Banggugyangu: 09 April 2010 - 03:14 PM

[rambus]

Banggugyangu, on 09 April 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

I stated that it's situational, but I can count on 1 hand the number of events in which I would have difficulty replacing a WHM as healer or a RDM as debuffer. Obviously, slow 2 is extremely effective and we can't keep up with that, but there isn't exactly any event that relies 100% on slow 2 either. It's one of those "wonderful to have, but not necessary by any means" tools.



Perhaps I'm one of few, but my SCH is indeed highly wanted in meripo. At the same time, I'm highly exclusive as to what people I PT with. I'm a firm believer that one should not have to do extra to make up for another's shortcomings. I've capped out EXP/hr on colibri as SCH without haste. It's possible with the right melees. *I was actually killshot-ing about every other mob from ~30%* Albeit, this requires absolutely top-notch melees, top-notch support, and a SCH that can properly manage his own MP and stratagems charges. Every time I've done this, however, there has been almost no need for any type of curative spells.

I'll welcome haste as SCH/WHM, but the only time I see myself using that combo will be low-man or meripo.

*edit* on a side note, SCH/BLM will soon be opening itself up as a more viable combination. Stun is wonderful when used properly, and SCH will be able to reduce recast on it to almost its cap. /BLM will obviously never be as forgiving as /RDM, but I can see it working in some situations once we have stun from /BLM.

seen in one event how blm/drk is usable but sotra rare, you have to note when you talk about exp invites you have to distinguish between friend and pug. a SMN does better in a merit then SCH does, though I do not know how accepting that is on the average person. Unlss your wyvere killing, that would be really hard on a SMN though they can manage a few time to time.

I do not know what caped exp/ hr means but with exp on easy stupid mode these days im sure a lot of setups can work esp with well geared and smart people in marcos.

This post has been edited by rambus: 09 April 2010 - 05:59 PM

[Minaras]

rambus, on 09 April 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

a SMN does better in a merit then SCH does, though I do not know how accepting that is on the average person. Unlss your wyvere killing, that would be really hard on a SMN though they can manage a few time to time.

Wait....what?
Since when?
I mean,ok im not sch myself,but last i checked SMN top cure is Cure III
Not to mention Rapture and Celerity that can help in those oshi situation

[Banggugyangu]

Minaras, on 19 April 2010 - 08:31 AM, said:

Wait....what?
Since when?
I mean,ok im not sch myself,but last i checked SMN top cure is Cure III
Not to mention Rapture and Celerity that can help in those oshi situation

Hastega, acc/eva buff, stoneskinga, phalanxga, really cheap curaga 2-3. Choose a handful and stick with them. *Hastega's a given, since the smn magic skill update.*

In a meripo even cure 3 is rarely needed.

rambus, capped exp/hr means that mobs were popping perfectly to keep chain. All other mobs that were within pullable range *including those at the edge of the bottom and top camps* were dead. Any faster killing would have resulted in broken chains which == slower EXP.

[Minaras]

<-- noob about smn.

Ok so smn has all these buff,but how many mp do they cost?
I mean,a smn, to be competitive with others "healing jobs", should keep hastega stoneskinga phalanxga and fenrir's thing up almost all the time right?

[rambus]

Banggugyangu, on 19 April 2010 - 10:49 AM, said:

Hastega, acc/eva buff, stoneskinga, phalanxga, really cheap curaga 2-3. Choose a handful and stick with them. *Hastega's a given, since the smn magic skill update.*

In a meripo even cure 3 is rarely needed.

rambus, capped exp/hr means that mobs were popping perfectly to keep chain. All other mobs that were within pullable range *including those at the edge of the bottom and top camps* were dead. Any faster killing would have resulted in broken chains which == slower EXP.

I do not accept the statement of "cap exp" by the way your defining it. When you go off saying that i thought you where literally killing the whole zone ( witch would require 10-15 sec per mob or something insane). you are just saying SCH can do "fine" in merits. that is fine if you are fine with fine. I do not care about having absolute best. Your statement means you are only doing birds. real merit pt can clear out manmool ja, ( wyvern , puks w/e by camping in the center) or killing wyvers with birds. ever had a real thf in your party? I seen a pt with an outstanding thf that went though wyvers quicker then normal pts can go though a lolbird.

Minaras, on 19 April 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

<-- noob about smn.

Ok so smn has all these buff,but how many mp do they cost?
I mean,a smn, to be competitive with others "healing jobs", should keep hastega stoneskinga phalanxga and fenrir's thing up almost all the time right?

phalanx is stupid in merits (even in endgame it is stupid since it is the weakest of the 3 jobs that can do it) and stoneskin AoE should not be spamed. hastaga is the only one you truly need to spam, the acc/ evade can help but the main focus is hasta and cures, everything else is second. I healed pts as rdm without any sort of support, im sure a SMN can do fine if a brd can give it ballad time to time and evoker roll. ( top end merits are cor and brd, healer of some sort that can haste and 3 dds) I never try to do smn in a real merit pt and I do not want to try since i do not think the average player accepts it anyway.

Noctoshield ( AoE phalanx) > 92 mp
Hastega > 129 mp
earthen ward ( AoE stoneskin) > 92 mp
Ecliptic Growl ( all stat up) > 46 mp
Ecliptic Howl (acc/evade) >57 mp

best way to play smn is cycle 3 hard. this mean you can try keeping up haste, all stats , and acc/ evade, then you would sac one of the buffs being off for a bit to pop stoneskin time to time. like banggy said, you would make some choices to pick from and these are the prime ones to pick. does not mean you keep them all up 24/7, you only do that with haste.

in other words:
hastega > something > something > haste > something > something > haste. this will keep haste on 24/7 and you would rotate other type of buffs. ( or the heals if you need them like spring water ( aoe cure/ na all/ erase) for 99 mp, healing ruby II for 129 mp, or whispering wind for 119 mp. I forget what spring water does not cure, but it cures a lot. I also forget the healing power of each one.

hasting 3 ( min) > 120 mp
haste 6 (full cycle) >240 mp

I do full cycles to keep track of it easier, i only skip retarded cors that can't make use out of it

I hate being on cor because i never get haste (only had one pt with a rdm that kept it on me) I hate going anything else because cors sub whm and do not get the concept of boosting your exp/ hr by a min of 15%.
can never win-.-. I would pick lack of haste on my cor over chancing random cors though.

if you are doing merit pts like baggy's setup then smn will do fine lolbirds, if you are spaming wyvers or wyverns though it may be hard on the smn since there is a good chance you would take lots of damage in a short time/ needing AoE erase ( oh hi there esuna).

wyvers have that nasty attack down, wyverns can cone silence and slow ( haste is stronger then this slow but sch only in pt has to worry about healing both), remove a lot of buffs, and AoE para. if the mob aoe para. There is also fang rush, some staff move, fire spit that does a lot of damage unless you have 1-3 shaddows, and sometimes vorpel blade. typally these full blown merit pts are whm or rdm only.

This post has been edited by rambus: 20 April 2010 - 01:57 PM

[Banggugyangu]

rambus, on 20 April 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

I do not accept the statement of "cap exp" by the way your defining it. When you go off saying that i thought you where literally killing the whole zone ( witch would require 10-15 sec per mob or something insane). you are just saying SCH can do "fine" in merits. that is fine if you are fine with fine. I do not care about having absolute best. Your statement means you are only doing birds. real merit pt can clear out manmool ja, ( wyvern , puks w/e by camping in the center) or killing wyvers with birds. ever had a real thf in your party? I seen a pt with an outstanding thf that went though wyvers quicker then normal pts can go though a lolbird.

Whether you accept the statement or not, there's a limit to the amount of EXP you can pull in from a certain camp without the use of EXP enhancing items. For the middle colibri camp, it's ~37k/hr. Reaching this equates to kills that time perfectly with the repops. It IS literally killing the whole zone *as far as all the mobs that your party can reach without dropping off to a different camp*. As I said, It's very possible without haste. It just takes a certain skill/concentration from every single member. Keep in mind, what I'm referring to is a situation where haste would HINDER as opposed to HELP. *Faster killing means broken chain, etc....*

[rambus]

Banggugyangu, on 20 April 2010 - 10:52 PM, said:

Whether you accept the statement or not, there's a limit to the amount of EXP you can pull in from a certain camp without the use of EXP enhancing items. For the middle colibri camp, it's ~37k/hr. Reaching this equates to kills that time perfectly with the repops. It IS literally killing the whole zone *as far as all the mobs that your party can reach without dropping off to a different camp*. As I said, It's very possible without haste. It just takes a certain skill/concentration from every single member. Keep in mind, what I'm referring to is a situation where haste would HINDER as opposed to HELP. *Faster killing means broken chain, etc....*

its not cap exp, it is simple you can do more with haste and getting wyvers. it is YOUR OPTION there is a cap exp.

there is more to exp then lol birds. I also disagree killing birds only can net 37k /hr, i don't care how you time the things.

If you can not keep chain when you kill a wyvere your not in a top end party or getting the best you can get, the concept should be that simple.

AHU pting is mindless and stupid you can infanate chain with any decent set up melee and if they are good with macros get around 30k/ hr.

I did inftante chain at both camps, 35k~ is for mamool ja savages.

37k /hr is not common unless you have some sort of static with people that know how to use relic weapons or top par gear changes. even then its not gonna be on birds only unless your rolling 11s on cor roll for 1 hour maybe

getting 280 avg bird ( this needs good cor roll) peaks is around 320 ish killing a mob every 30 seconds is 33600. this is why mamool has more potional for higher exp, you can have 5 mobs near you kill one that gives around 150 is exp or w/e pucs are on inatane chain that dies in 5-10 seconds sometimes then move on to a mamool or wyvern. it is a bit more risky for reasons i named ealier, hence why I said it would be hard for a SMN to be there in a top end party that can kill like that, time to time you run into thunderaga III or para aoe and such.

you are trying to inflate sch "oh i can get this cap exp so haste is not important" is wrong. You can do fine in merits anything can, anything can get 20k + hr easily, but you WILL NOT get top end exp without haste.

This post has been edited by rambus: 20 April 2010 - 11:39 PM