[Escaflone]

After playing the game for nearly 7 years now, its come to the stage long awaited, even though this should o fbeen done a long time ago...to finally make a relic for my most favored class. Ranger.

Between the two I have to choose from(Forget Nyzul Relic Bleh), I have these choices.



and



I am a HUGE fan of Bows, but I know Gun's Base DMG output(w/Bullet 81) and low delay is very comparable if not 'the best' damage a RNG should have, coupled with Snapshot 5/5 and Barbut.... I love the -Emnity it gives you, however I feel most RNGs jump on a Bandwagon when making htis relic, and don't want to be another one of those "Anni RNGs" - Then again I do not want to be frowned upon for getting Yoichi because it may or may not be "The Best"

For the events I do, as I do not do any HNM really, not in the mood for things such as that...I do:

Limbus, E.Jar, ZNM, Light Sky, Sea - Possibly Past HNM in the future, and Dynamis(Love Dynamis itself, I find it quite fun on my BLM.)

I am in a bind on what I should get, and why. I believe Yoichi has a massive..MASSIVE Increase to ranged acc after Namas is Fired, and Anni is the MASSIVE -Enmity Reduction after its fired, leaving open stuff like a Barrage near hateless.

Please give me insight on both as in honesty I would love to have Youichi more, because its just damn cool, I am hume, would look better too and I am not Elvaan, and Hume shooting guns looks lame as hell as compared to Elvaan - they are fucking sexy just shooting it with one hand. Trust me thats not the thing holding me down from gun, just would like some insight please, and thanks!^^

EDIT: Also, what is the exact +Ranged acc amount that Namas gives you, I am unable to find it anywhere. Want to know more about the relics so I am not noob when using them.

[Daggermaster]

I'm no rng, but both weapons allow you to do a massive amount of damage. Neither weapon will get you "frowned upon" per say. A well geared rng does very nicely with both weapons. But if i had a choice, i would(personally myself) go with yoichi, on the basis of it can be used on sam as well.

[BlackMoomba]

If you also had a Sam and liked it, I'd say lean towards to Yoichi. But I've worked with both relics, and for Rng only, Anni impressed me more. Just my 2 cents.

[Kaparu]

Both versions of relic ranger get trashed by relic samurai. Get Yoichi for fun on the former, and domination on the latter.

Err, and also, Coronach is only -20 enmity, that won't do anything similar to making a full barrage hateless.

[Taint]

Yoichi and lvl SAM.

[Jiyo]

Escaflone, on 05 January 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

For the events I do, as I do not do any HNM really, not in the mood for things such as that...I do:

Limbus, E.Jar, ZNM, Light Sky, Sea - Possibly Past HNM in the future, and Dynamis(Love Dynamis itself, I find it quite fun on my BLM.)

It doesn't matter what you pick if this is all you do. If you plan on only using Coronach/Namas, you won't pull hate at any of those events. The -enmity from Coronach is cool, but you'll get 2 shots off with aftermath at most. It is far easier to do more damage with Annihilator using crappy gear however. When I used to play there was myself (Yoichi) and a linkshell mate (Annihilator) that would almost always be at our Ixion's. I had some better gear than him at one point, yet his Coronach's were still equal to my Namas'. I would still out parse him (sorry, I don't have any saved parses... it'll just be my word), but only by a few percentages. With top end gear, Annihilator only comes out ahead barely in terms of pure DD. For RNG only, Annihilator IS better than Yoichi, but not by leaps and bounds.

You don't have SAM according to your sig, so there goes one major appeal of Yoichi. What you probably could do is just upgrade Annihilator, then focus on getting a K.Club with the excess money you 'would' have used for upgrading Yoichi. If I didn't have SAM leveled up, I would have gone for Annihilator instead. In the end, if you don't have any plans of leveling SAM, then just stick with Annihilator if you're only concerned about DD potential. Since Yoichi/Annihilator DD isn't that far apart, you could just go with Bow anyways since you say you like the look more.

[Escaflone]

Jiyo, on 05 January 2010 - 09:25 AM, said:

It doesn't matter what you pick if this is all you do. If you plan on only using Coronach/Namas, you won't pull hate at any of those events. The -enmity from Coronach is cool, but you'll get 2 shots off with aftermath at most. It is far easier to do more damage with Annihilator using crappy gear however. When I used to play there was myself (Yoichi) and a linkshell mate (Annihilator) that would almost always be at our Ixion's. I had some better gear than him at one point, yet his Coronach's were still equal to my Namas'. I would still out parse him (sorry, I don't have any saved parses... it'll just be my word), but only by a few percentages. With top end gear, Annihilator only comes out ahead barely in terms of pure DD. For RNG only, Annihilator IS better than Yoichi, but not by leaps and bounds.

I might get lol'ed at for this: but between the relics I am not worried about doing the most damage, between the 2. Sure, I will be worried about doing the best dmg I can but not choose a relic just because its 'the best' - But because I love rng with a passion, and after playing htis game nearly 7yrs I think its time to make one before this game either farts and dies, or continues on after FFXIV Online and we have a mass server merge to put 3000+ people on a server again to make it more lively.

I just like the huge triple procc Barrages Anni has to offer, as I personally Salvage with a relic RNG - and he 1-shots Gears in zones w/WS and/or Barrage. Its amazing, and dun know if Yoichi is capable of nearly if not the same output.

As the 2 shots w/aftermath, I would mainly just Namas for the acc Boost, to Barrage to then WS again w/Slugwinder possibly. Namas beat Sidewinder or it like a so-so dmg WS? Just the key is self-SCing w/Namas and Wings for Light Unresisted more less yeah, heard it does massive damage.

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You don't have SAM according to your sig, so there goes one major appeal of Yoichi. What you probably could do is just upgrade Annihilator, then focus on getting a K.Club with the excess money you 'would' have used for upgrading Yoichi. If I didn't have SAM leveled up, I would have gone for Annihilator instead. In the end, if you don't have any plans of leveling SAM, then just stick with Annihilator if you're only concerned about DD potential. Since Yoichi/Annihilator DD isn't that far apart, you could just go with Bow anyways since you say you like the look more.

Just because I have Yoichi, even though I do not really wish to have SAM leveled as I am anot a fan of SAM, it would make me level it just so I could use it, Sekk and self Light SC, DRG sub just go wild with it. ANd wouldnt be just limited to using Yoichi on RNG. Would remove my 8 marks Merits and put that into GTK actually. As I have 8 Archery right now, too.

Would make me even drop my Abyssal for a Bushi, and my Tamas for Rajas. - I have the RNG Ring from TOAU as well.

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Yoichi and lvl SAM.

Whilst if I got Yoichi I would undoubtly level SAM, I am ignoring your comment because you didn't give input, and just saying to get it because that was your preference and that I should get it to put on SAM just to use it on SAM. As if getting it for RNG would be totally pointless.

I won't be trying to get Relic for SAM, however. I am not dedicaed enough to get 2 relics, I dun know how hard its going to be to get one relic, let alone two. lol. Likewise I will not spend my gil to fund runs/buy currency till I have everything at least up to stage 4 ready so I only have to complete stage 5.

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Both versions of relic ranger get trashed by relic samurai. Get Yoichi for fun on the former, and domination on the latter.

Err, and also, Coronach is only -20 enmity, that won't do anything similar to making a full barrage hateless.

I am not aiming to level sam just to get relic for SAM to trash relic for rng. Point is getitng muh relic for rng. ^^;

And blah on the -20 emnity only...I thought it was something so massive it would of been the sole reaosn to get Anni just for that purepose to go nuts while you have the aftermath active so you didn't pull hate.

This aspect makes me wanna get Yoichi more, and who knows, SAM might be fun. ^^;

Not to mention with Yoichi I like the aspect of being able to actually use my favorted PPA Arrow that I never loose because I am pro and have 4 macros I press so I dont loose it. >_>; Chaaaaaa. lol

Whats the real difference between the barrages on Yoichi and Anni anyways?

Everyone else thanks for the input and opinions. ^^

[Kaparu]

There's no difference between the barrage of the two

[Rikkitikkitavi]

I personally like how his sig sais blm is his main, but yet he wants a rng relic.

Yoichi is better between the two, because of the versatility of a bow vs. gun. Their damage output will be near similar.

Bow offers so much more in forms of -emnity, debuffs, and range capacity. You can shoot from further away, and not get nearly as much penalty on your ratk as opposed to gun.

Not to mention the fact that you can lower a monsters defense, or even sleep them with a bow.

And the fact that Namas is completely hate free, you will love it on hate-intensive fights.

The gun is also barely noticeable when drawn, at least people will notice your yoichi when you use it.

[pathwriter]

Rikkitikkitavi, on 06 January 2010 - 11:59 AM, said:

I personally like how his sig sais blm is his main, but yet he wants a rng relic.

Do you seriously expect him to work on fucking Claustrum?

[Rikkitikkitavi]

pathwriter, on 06 January 2010 - 12:46 PM, said:

Do you seriously expect him to work on fucking Claustrum?

Lols .

I was moreso suggesting he update it to RNG main ^^

[Spider-Dan]

Kaparu, on 05 January 2010 - 02:14 AM, said:

Both versions of relic ranger get trashed by relic samurai. Get Yoichi for fun on the former, and domination on the latter.

Wrong and wrong. Relic (Yoichi) SAM is only exceptional with Soboro, and anything that Soboro/Yoichi SAM works on, RNG doesn't even need a relic to compete; grab a KC and go to town.

When it comes to things that you care about feeding TP to, these mobs are generally tanked (by a real, dedicated tank). In those situations, Anni RNG will deal way more damage than Yoichi SAM, simply because enmity is the most limiting factor and a) Coronach generates half the enmity of Namas and has a -enmity Aftermath and RNG has much better -enmity gear than SAM.

[Spider-Dan]

Rikkitikkitavi, on 06 January 2010 - 11:59 AM, said:

Bow offers so much more in forms of -emnity, debuffs, and range capacity. You can shoot from further away, and not get nearly as much penalty on your ratk as opposed to gun.

Not to mention the fact that you can lower a monsters defense, or even sleep them with a bow.

And the fact that Namas is completely hate free, you will love it on hate-intensive fights.

How incredibly ironic that you praise Yoichi for it's -enmity advantage, when Coronach generates half the enmity of Namas Arrow and gives a -enmity Aftermath, to boot.

The "versatility" of bow would be more of an concern if bow's status ammo were not completely worthless. Demons' ATK down is a meaningless debuff and kaburas' silence almost never procs. Both of them are far less relevant than spartan bullets' stun effect, and even that is too situational to be worth discussing. If you want to talk about status ammo, the discussion starts and ends with xbow, and if you approach the situation from that angle, you're better off with marksmanship merits (and therefore Anni) than archery.

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The gun is also barely noticeable when drawn, at least people will notice your yoichi when you use it.

When you're right, you're right.

[Taint]

Spider-Dan, on 06 January 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

Wrong and wrong. Relic (Yoichi) SAM is only exceptional with Soboro, and anything that Soboro/Yoichi SAM works on, RNG doesn't even need a relic to compete; grab a KC and go to town.

When it comes to things that you care about feeding TP to, these mobs are generally tanked (by a real, dedicated tank). In those situations, Anni RNG will deal way more damage than Yoichi SAM, simply because enmity is the most limiting factor and a) Coronach generates half the enmity of Namas and has a -enmity Aftermath and RNG has much better -enmity gear than SAM.

And SAM should have no problem tanking the mentioned mobs.

But I do agree from a RNG standpoint Anni is better on HNM with the -enm but with SAMs ability to tank hate isn't that big of a deal to pull.

[Spider-Dan]

Taint, on 06 January 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

And SAM should have no problem tanking the mentioned mobs.

Sure. But if SAM is to tank, their tactics/gear has to change, while RNG is still able to go full-bore.

[Kaparu]

Spider-Dan, on 06 January 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

Wrong and wrong. Relic (Yoichi) SAM is only exceptional with Soboro, and anything that Soboro/Yoichi SAM works on, RNG doesn't even need a relic to compete; grab a KC and go to town.

When it comes to things that you care about feeding TP to, these mobs are generally tanked (by a real, dedicated tank). In those situations, Anni RNG will deal way more damage than Yoichi SAM, simply because enmity is the most limiting factor and a) Coronach generates half the enmity of Namas and has a -enmity Aftermath and RNG has much better -enmity gear than SAM.

What the hell are you talking about? KC is going to frequently run into zeros against anything significant. The only time KC is going to surpass Soboro(and its debatable still) is in situations similar to merit parties(lower tier Ein, Limbus, Dynamis, etc). Yoichi/Soboro-samurai works against absolutely anything you can otherwise engage.

[Spider-Dan]

Kaparu, on 07 January 2010 - 12:10 AM, said:

What the hell are you talking about? KC is going to frequently run into zeros against anything significant. The only time KC is going to surpass Soboro(and its debatable still) is in situations similar to merit parties(lower tier Ein, Limbus, Dynamis, etc).

And what, exactly, would you be fighting that is so strong that KC hits for 0, yet weak enough that TP spam from Soboro would not be a problem?

It also bears mentioning that against any mob with high enough DEF to make KC hit for 0, Gekko (with its inherent pDIF bonus, plus Overwhelm) would destroy Namas Arrow in damage, so the entire exercise seems somewhat self-defeating.

[Kaparu]

In any extended fight where capping enmity is going to require you to stop dealing damage, or pay the price for your enmity(be it tanking or dying, as both are going to slow you down), Namas Arrow has a significant edge over Gekko, and there are plenty of fights that fit that description. And even without a merited haste samba active, I'd be willing to wager that a six-hit Soboro with all other available haste options present(including Hasso, because of the lack of enmity issues) is going to gain TP a fair margin faster than a KC-ranger.

[Foxdragoon]

Spider-Dan, on 07 January 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

And what, exactly, would you be fighting that is so strong that KC hits for 0, yet weak enough that TP spam from Soboro would not be a problem?

It also bears mentioning that against any mob with high enough DEF to make KC hit for 0, Gekko (with its inherent pDIF bonus, plus Overwhelm) would destroy Namas Arrow in damage, so the entire exercise seems somewhat self-defeating.

I agree against most high def mobs a sam would probably be rocking a GK. I want to explore the soboro sam vs k club rng situation a bit since it could help him get a better idea of what he wants without totally derailing the thread.
EDIT: For clarification I am focusing on MERIPO uses. I also, after finishing this, realized a way to provide a much, much more accurate comparison so I will try to put that together when I have time- (but for what I was trying to show, this comparison is still pretty valid)


Now I didn't spend a ton of time on this comparison and I DO UNDERSTAND that there are certain mistakes in the logic, but this kind of gave me an interesting view at the matchup. Also note: I do not have any decent data to tell you the average dmg per hits or the dmg of wses. This is pretty much just a look at the tp.
Assuming:
No subjobs, no STP in gear, assuming no haste in gear
Samurai: 94% accuracy and soboro + 35 STP
Ranger: 84% accuracy and K club (no offhand swings)

Comparison:
Samurai will average 1.9325 attacks per round
This averages to 21.85647 TP per attack round.
Factoring in Merit and Trait STP this increases to about 29.5 TP per round.
This averages to 3.93 TP a second. (keeping in mind 450 delay)
With 94% accuracy this is 3.6973 TP a second.

Ranger will average 3.82 attacks per round
This averages to 26.74 TP per attack round
Factoring in no Merit and no Trait STP this remains 26.74 TP per attack round
This averages to 6.0774 TP a second (keeping in mind 264 delay)
With 84% accuracy this is 5.1049 TP a second. (This assumption of accuracy was based in large part by discussion in "COR lkkn to level RNG" )

Problems: TP gain in application comes in hits, not in a simple, steady flow of tp per second. This does not factor in gear differences, melee dmg per hits, differences in ws damage, subjob variations, tp return from the relic ws of choice, and access to different abilities (such as barrage, meditate, etc). And a lot more problems but should still be roughly accurate for what I was trying to show.


In my opinion when other variables are factored in, Samurai would gain more from those unaccounted variables. Samurai melee dps should be considerably higher, meditate, hasso, and sekkanoki, etc would also provide considerable benefits. I would also be interested to see how the haste advantage of a samurai could affect the outcome. I am also curious how much the constant gear switching and ws spam would damper any such haste effect.

I do NOT claim this to be perfect or complete, but it was fun to examine the TP gains. I'd appreciate it if anyone else had any helpful/informative input or corrections on the subject. I tried to make this fairly accurate without getting too deep into the math. I understand the OP was more interested in a direct comparison of the two relics but this comparison seems fair for exploration as soboro sam is a viable application of the yoichi.

[pathwriter]

Instead of debating the merits of the two weapons described in the original post, let's go back and forth trying to explain why or why not SE's golden child should replace every other DD and half the tanks in the game. Fuck, this game cannot die fast enough as all semblance of job balance has been increasingly thrown out the window due to the developers' utter indifference and long-standing attempts to kill the game.

Seriously, though, do you guys never get tired of min-maxing for a game whose overwhelming majority of situations require less attention than washing the dishes? Get the weapon you're going to enjoy, but it's worth noting that Annihilator costs less and is hurt less by eventually pulling aggro.