[pathwriter]

More sketchy logic. You can't plan around "might," especially not when we're talking about Square-Enix. I mean, they might hand our relic weapons piecemeal (oh, wait...), but if you want to your shiny new Guttler, you work towards it without imagining that you'll find your useless hunk sitting in your delivery box some morning. SE is unlikely to make any changes that would unduly favor one weapon over another, hence their scrapping of the distance-based enmity adjustments.

[JnnnnnL]

Foxdragoon, on 08 January 2010 - 09:21 AM, said:

First, my apologies for not finishing this yesterday when I figured it out. Ok I spent a pretty good amount of time on this so I think it goes pretty deep into the comparison, especially for maximizing samurai.

For reference, here are the gear sets I am assuming. I don't claim these to be perfect. I also understand that you can tweak these. Some small tweaks can change things DRAMATICALLY. I'll mention a couple of these gear changes that I noticed were possible and worth mentioning. I am not up to date on Ranger Gun WS gear so I am leaving that out, mainly because it doesn't really matter except for how much STP is on it. For this discussion I am assuming the presence of RAJAS and ONLY rajas on the Anni WS. Adding just a bit of STP to my assumed rng sets could reduce the required kraken hits from 12 down to 11 very easily.

Yoichi Sam Melee (max haste= 35.6 due to hasso, should have capped acc on most targets)
Yoichi Sam WS (can use marid arrows instead of kabura if you don't want to use chiv chain for acc reasons or if you do not have hq hachiman)
Anni Rng Melee (this set is based on "COR lkkn to level RNG" but I made improvements for comparison's sake)(max haste= 25.6, Predicted ~84% acc on meripo birds)
Anni Rng WS : This is currently blank with the lone assumption that the Ranger is using +5 STP gear (Rajas Ring)

Maximizing Yoichi Sam:

I wanted to stray from the norm a bit and decided to really make this interesting. I figured out that I could actually make it so that a WS and then ONLY FOUR hits from soboro could create 100tp for another WS.
11.5 is a raw, single hit tp return from soboro.
By adding in Sam trait and merit STP we have +35 STP. We can also (using the above gear sets) add in +15 STP during WS and +23 STP during melee. This is a very, very efficient build.

Soboro has 30:50:20 chance of swings (aka 30% chance 1 swing, 50% chance 2 swings, 20% chance for 3) according to the wiki. Thus 1.9 average swings per round.
7.0 is a raw, single hit tp return from a kraken club.
Since this sam will get 27.9 tp return from Namas, we need 18.1 tp per swing from soboro to get to 100 tp in 4 swings.
Using the 30:50:20 information we can predict:
61% of the time it will take only TWO attack rounds to reach 100tp
30% of the time it will take only THREE attack rounds to reach 100tp
9% of the time it will take only FOUR attack rounds to reach 100tp (ignore misses till the end)
Therefore, an average of 2.48 attack rounds will be needed between WS. At 450 delay and NO HASTE, this is a ws every 18.6 seconds on average.
In 1000 seconds that is 53.7634 WS. Assuming (for comparison) every WS does 1000 dmg, that is 53,763.44 damage in 10000 seconds
We can now modify this number by acc which we will assume to be capped 95% during tp gain phase.
51,075.26 total WS dmg in 1000 seconds.


Anni Rng:

Assuming +5 STP during WS, (and silver bullets) every WS will return 22.2tp
Kraken Club has a breakdown of 5:15:25:25:15:10:3:2 (source: Gobli) (English)
I did not map out all the %s and ways to get to 100tp because I quickly realized that it would be a task taking me at least another hour by hand if not more. Furthermore, ANY slight changes in STP could change the number of hits required and thus null any work I did on the subject. It would, however, be interesting to finish, but I don't want to continue working on that until I am 100% sure what +STP would be on an ideal Anni WS in the first place. As of right now, the setup would require 12 kraken hits to reach 100tp after using a WS. Roughly this would probably be ~4 attack rounds. (assuming no missing)
4 attack rounds would take 17.6 seconds between WS.
In 1000 seconds that is 56.8182 WS. We will assume (for comparison) that every WS does 1000 dmg. that is 56,818.18 WS damage in 1000 seconds.
We can now modify this number by acc which we will assume to be 84% during tp gain phase.
47,727.27 total WS dmg in 1000 seconds. (or 93.44% of the Samurai WS dmg)

Notes: As mentioned previously, the KC hits were not perfectly mapped out to reach 100tp but I believe my estimation to be very accurate though maybe (if anything) a bit generous to the KC's performance. I am ignoring Zanshin (and thus any Ikishoten) as its effect would be negligible. Certain gear, such as full hachiryu set and AV drops, etc were ignored because I do not think they are realistic items to have in a model gear set. Other stuff, I don't know I forget lol. Oh FUN FACT: it seems like it is possible to reach 100tp in just THREE soboro hits, but only if STP from food is not in the capped gear category. Thus allowing a grand total of +92 total STP. I imagine there is an overall STP cap before that, though.

Thoughts: This comparison assumes EQUAL WS DAMAGE. In reality, I would expect the Anni Ranger will do more dmg per WS. However, this does show that the Anni ranger can be expected to only WS at a rate of 93.44% of the Sam BEFORE haste. The samurai has 35.6 haste over the ranger's 25.6. Depending on how haste is affected by the gear swapping and the ability/ws spam, this is ALMOST CERTAINLY SIGNIFICANT if the party has haste and march. Furthermore I would anticipate that the sam would have much, much higher dps. Both sam and rng have access to abilities that could boost both of their damage numbers. I believe sam does have an advantage again in this category, mainly because of meditate, but also sekkanoki. And while both weapons are great for keeping enmity down I do think it is appropriate to point out that samurai has far more survivability than rng/drg. Also, as the target's evasion rises so to does the advantage of the samurai. The samurai will still be extremely accurate against high evasion mobs, while the ranger's melee (and thus tp) acc will drop substantially.

I'd love to see average WS dmgs for the relics and average melee hits from soboro and k club on comparable mobs, but I think my post still has meaning without them. I do not think this is a PERFECT comparison or that my assumed gear setups are perfect. If you have anything to critique or notice an error please do so without being a clown or just PM me. I apologize again for not posting this a bit earlier. I might try to clean up the ranger gear sets and k club numbers, especially if someone could provide a good WS STP number for me to work with.

I know, old thread ect... But I got a question, can someone explain how a sam with +15stp in gears can get 27.9 TP return from Namas Arrow ? I really would like to know how you did your maths because a sam with 15stp+merits would actually only get around 23 TP from Namas <.<

Also, if "Kraken Club has a breakdown of 5:15:25:25:15:10:3:2" is true, KC will then hit 3.82 times per round so it'll take 3,14 rounds for it to hit 12 times and not 4 rounds.

PS: I actually tested it with a Yoichi sam so i'm sure of what I'm saying I just wanted to point it out for anyone that will read this thread, this guy is wrong, it not possible to get 27.9TP from namas with only 15stp in gears

This post has been edited by JnnnnnL: 11 May 2010 - 11:19 PM

[Dartalion]

Sry to beat an old topic but I'm finding myself on the same horse here.

I want to leave sam out of the equation entirely this is only about rng.

Utilities of Anni vs Yoichi. A couple friends have given me the vague answer of "they're both about the same for rng only". Is this really true does it all just come down to preference? I'll admit to a certain bias of having a giant handcannon of doom. Unless one if truely better than the other for rng? I'm not trying to start a whole new debate just a few facts would be nice. With snapshot and /hitbuilds and the high delay of anni can that compare/possibly beat yoichi? (which of course can do the same thing but not as effectively as anni? Again i hope I don't fan the flames lol.

[Kaparu]

Annihilator is better for ranger than Yoichinoyumi. No practical situation is ever going to display a real difference between the two.

Upgrade Yoichinoyumi.

[JnnnnnL]

Rng/sam with anni and sam roll (no need to have a sam in pt) can get a ws+3hit(4hit) setup, in other words it cans WS every 3 hits, Yoichi can't. And if you take cor out of the equation, Yoichi has to sacrifice too many gears to get a 5hit w/ /war when anni can get it very easily with /war. Plus don't forget "pummel message" distance for relics is farther than normal so anni will only be really penalized @15' and most fight are done at 10' or 20' (depending on skin ofc) and even with that penality I doubt yoichi 5hit /war will be better than anni 4hit /sam (would need tests). In addition to that, ws every 3 hits allows anni to do keep coro's aftermath up all the time so yoichi in low man/long fights would pull hate pretty quickly compared to anni. So in other words if you take sam out of the equation, upgrade anni. But if you can, upgrade both with 2 different chars . Elvaan is better for Yoichi, for anni it's more balanced.

[Taint]

There really aren't any long fights any more. And when you low man, speed generally isn't a main priority. Most mobs where RNG is used Khim,PW,Odin hate is not a huge concern because of how fast the mobs die.

One nice advantage to Yoichi is the RAcc bonus, eat curry stack STR and RAtt and have at it.

Both relics are awesome and both can be abused nicely. The upcoming updates will be interesting and if they kill the effectiveness of soboro/namas spam then Anni will get another advantage over Yoichi.

[JnnnnnL]

It only really depends on how many ppl you got. Yoichi's racc bonus is far from what you'd get with pot-au-feu for example. If you need acc food with Ebow to cap your acc, you'll still need it with Yoichi. But the main advantage of anni that I wanted to point out is the fact that you can get a 4hit, which is really awsome.

This post has been edited by JnnnnnL: 03 June 2010 - 01:08 PM

[Lambtor]

it's probably stupid to mention this but you also gain the ability to close/open darkness as rng, and your enmity is no longer a damage limiter for you. spamming coronach, you'll be the last person to draw hate of any DD; alternating between coronach and slug might also be enough to remove the need to ever sub nin again.

[Kaparu]

You do realize that the difference in enmity generation between Namas Arrow and Coronach is virtually undetectable in practice, right?

[Spider-Dan]

Kaparu, on 03 June 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

You do realize that the difference in enmity generation between Namas Arrow and Coronach is virtually undetectable in practice, right?

It's true that the weapon skills themselves both have tiny enmity generation; Namas' is very low (equivalent to 128 damage dealt), while Coronach's is absurdly low (equivalent to 64 damage dealt). Consequently, as the majority of your enmity will now be coming from TP gain phase, the extra enmity-20 that Coronach gives becomes a significant factor in comparing the two.

[Taint]

Spider-Dan, on 03 June 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

It's true that the weapon skills themselves both have tiny enmity generation; Namas' is very low (equivalent to 128 damage dealt), while Coronach's is absurdly low (equivalent to 64 damage dealt). Consequently, as the majority of your enmity will now be coming from TP gain phase, the extra enmity-20 that Coronach gives becomes a significant factor in comparing the two.

But in what current situation is the enmity a factor? Big mobs are dieing in 15-20 min on the slow side. PW changes forms constantly and AV is currently a crap shoot. The rest of the game is mowing down mobs.

[Kaparu]

Spider-Dan, on 03 June 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

It's true that the weapon skills themselves both have tiny enmity generation; Namas' is very low (equivalent to 128 damage dealt), while Coronach's is absurdly low (equivalent to 64 damage dealt). Consequently, as the majority of your enmity will now be coming from TP gain phase, the extra enmity-20 that Coronach gives becomes a significant factor in comparing the two.

While that's all very true, unless you're literally the only DD, you should be so far behind everyone else's enmity that the additional 20% is inconsequential.

[JnnnnnL]

I got a question for Yoichi (and anni) owners, have you ever tried to parse namas' (or coro's) acc on mobs where you'd have less than 70-80% racc, if yes could you please post that parse ? I'm just wondering if namas or coro got an hidden racc bonus but i've never seen any serious test about it

[Kaparu]

Based on a SAM's testing ages ago(no chance of digging it up, sorry), there's at bare minimum a +100 Racc bonus to Coronach and Namas Arrow. Given that skill and agility combined push both jobs over the 50% Racc threshold on virtually everything in this game, they're both 95% Racc weapon skills

[Spider-Dan]

Taint, on 04 June 2010 - 09:25 AM, said:

But in what current situation is the enmity a factor? Big mobs are dieing in 15-20 min on the slow side. PW changes forms constantly and AV is currently a crap shoot. The rest of the game is mowing down mobs.

If you already kill everything easily with no problems whatsoever, why waste time and effort getting a relic? What's the benefit?

Either being better is worth it, or it isn't.

[Spider-Dan]

Kaparu, on 04 June 2010 - 11:16 AM, said:

While that's all very true, unless you're literally the only DD, you should be so far behind everyone else's enmity that the additional 20% is inconsequential.

It's 20% more damage that you can deal before reaching the cap. That is consequential in every non-zerg fight.