[Rhayve]

Since I did not want to derail the Damage pictures thread even further, I'm making this new one to continue the debate. Feel free to use it for different debates and discussions as well.

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I think we should start up a whats better thread for pup though. SO we stop shitstorming this thread up ;D I must say this most lively I have seen pup boards in awhile so I am happy.

Done that. But you don't know what you've gotten yourself into.

Anyway, to start off:

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1.) The fact is it does take 1 hit off. You don't take a million variables into account for the pure reason that you cannot account for them. This is why math more than "I seen it so its true" is the key. If you want to get technical you could make these "what if casual statements" for any situation. I will hit the mob, therefor acc gear is pointless on that one hit. A bit extreme but it proves the point. So to say lessening the amount of hits to ws is pointless because you hit twice is kinda of silly. There will be times where that 1 hit shaved off will lead to a ws faster, and times it will not. However if you looked at it this way too you would see why shaving off a hit is a good thing. at 95% acc you will miss 1/20 hits. since it takes 18 hits to ws without rajas (well call this 20 hits for easiness to get point across). So you technically would be at 19/20 hit connected (meaning your one shy) however if you had that stp ring on you would be at 19/19 needed theoretically every time. Thus you increased your ws efficiency tons which is a very large portion of pups dmg. I personally would take even a 2.5% ws frequency increase over 1-2 acc..... especially when you can cap acc on pup without giving to much up. The same logic goes with atonement plds, go read the countless posts as to why rajas>tor ring for them to get an idea of what im talking about.

95% Accuracy (which is very difficult to achieve with PUP if you want to use certain pieces of Haste gear) does not mean that every 20 hits you will miss 1 hit, as it's a probability. As probabilities go, you can miss all 20 out of 20 hits, or none at all.
Meaning it's just as probable you will be hitting and even amount of hits as an uneven amount of hits, but the reason why you should not use Rajas unless you have Usukane (which allows you to shave off two whole hits, by the way) is because PUP cannot afford any hits to Accuracy usually, but thanks to Usukane's +7 Accuracy paired with Haste and sTP, you can, in a way, live with it.

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2.) I really hate to touch this sub part again..... But i cannot believe you are really advocating /nin on pup. Pup is unique in that our dmg is split so we normally wont take hit before ws. This means offensive subs really pose no harm to us. You say after WS you will be mp sinking to much. I personally have never had an issue nor any complaint from a mage about my pup taking dmg in the 200+ merits I have done at birds with it. You say you merit with good people but i really doubt you know what good is then.... Birds usually last no longer than 20 sec in most "good" parties and thats being generous. The fact is normally that means you might take a pecking to the face and 2 hits at most, 600~ dmg. If you have a good mage they can easily keep up with that every 3-5 mobs you miraculously steal hate on over a penta thrusting sam, RR war, drakes drg, you get the idea. I expect parties I am in on pup to be fast paced to where the mob isnt living long enough to really do dmg, aka ALL should be subbing their best DD sub.

Seriously, PUPs enmity building may be split between Master and Automaton, but the Job is not or no longer weak, any decent PUP should be pulling hate every fight they WS in, with any WS from either the Maton or the Master, this is a fact.
Stringing Pummel is at least just as strong, if not stronger than an Asuran Fists from a Monk, thanks to the Crit mod. and Armor Piercer should be amongst the strongest WSs that are being put out by your party. There is no way you won't pull hate after a WS unless a heavy DD has WS'd as well. The one thing they have over us is the higher per-hit damage and WS frequency, but that is of no concern in this matter.
Even with quick 20 seconds fights and other melees, they won't always have TP ready at the same time, so there are always 2-4 second windows where you'll be tanking. This is more than enough for a bird to use a TP move on you, including Pecking Flurry or Snatch Morsel. And exactly because of Snatch Morsel you cannot afford to carry around 40 pizzas every meripo, unless you really never pull hate.
Taking 600 damage in one fight is still bearable, but taking 200-600 damage every fight (and soemtimes more if you're using Berserk) will just too quickly drain the healer's MP. Monks are less spike WSers than we are, yet they have to use /NIN as well, because due to their sheer possible Dot and even WS power with /WAR, they would eventually grab hate any sponge. And PUP spikes higher on WSs. The mentality of /WAR, /SAM etc. onry is the NA mentality that I don't really like. Sure, a few DDs can afford to use offensive subs, but if every single one uses /WAR, for example, you'll quickly die. because the healer's MP is finite.
Anyway, /NIN blocks any kind of songs like Lullaby or Elegy that could hit you by chance and that would hinder your damage output and that needs assistance from the healer as soon as possible. But suit yourself.

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3.)As for the food. That was my whole issue with dan. I was just trying to show him mainly how pizza isnt to great on pup due to our loss of acc. But honestly pizza>crab your only 2% acc higher by using crab which is not going to out do 55 attack ever. Bream is 6% higher which is a good chunk, and the fact it has vit and dex for SP is gravvy. Bream will out do pizza most the time probably depending situation and mob. Also bream isnt costly. It is like 9k a stack, which is just 2x the price of crab. I lose food on pup about 3x as slow as I do my sam which I spam crab with. So its actually cheaper for me to use my pup for merits than sam. This is just player difference though. If 9k for an hr and half is to much idk what to tell you considering you should be making no less than 30k (ideally around 40) in that time, which gives you 4k IS = 40k.... just saying.

The difference is 3% Accuracy, not 2%, just fyi. Anyway, this is about a 10 Accuracy difference, which is a 5% Hit rate. Hit rate is not only going to increase your Dot, but also your TP gaining rate, thus your WS frequency. Attack is nice and necessary, but it doesn't mean shit if you can't connect your hits.
There is a reason why people use Haubergeon over Byrnie (though yes, here the Accuracy/Attack difference is greater, but PUP also has far less Combat Skill, thus less Accuracy to work with).
As I mentioned above, you'll be pulling hate a lot, this also means you'll be losing food a lot. Not as much as mayhaps a WAR or SAM, but still at a fairly quick rate. Pizza can't be spammed unless you pack your Satchel full of them, and that's 3k per Pizza. It's just not worthwhile for just a Meripo, especially not with the above mentioned.
Bream Sushi can be affordable if you're rich and it would increase your performance considerably, but if you merit frequently and you use up 4-5 stacks or more per session, the additional cost will add up. Unless you've nothing else left to buy, Crab sushi has a better price/performance ratio.

PS: I don't mean to be offensive, so please don't feel insulted if I seem a bit harsh.

[azagarth1]

First off I want to thank you for this ;D much rather have its own thred. And there will never be hard feelings its just peoples opinions on what works best.

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95% Accuracy (which is very difficult to achieve with PUP if you want to use certain pieces of Haste gear) does not mean that every 20 hits you will miss 1 hit, as it's a probability. As probabilities go, you can miss all 20 out of 20 hits, or none at all.
Meaning it's just as probable you will be hitting and even amount of hits as an uneven amount of hits, but the reason why you should not use Rajas unless you have Usukane (which allows you to shave off two whole hits, by the way) is because PUP cannot afford any hits to Accuracy usually, but thanks to Usukane's +7 Accuracy paired with Haste and sTP, you can, in a way, live with it.

Yes I know its probability which was reason for my example. Obviously it wont happened every time but over the course of a few hours rajas will output a few extra WS's. The fact you will miss 5% of the time really makes it easy to see that rajas will often save you a hit from those misses. We cannot account for when you miss or anything, we just know it will happen and thus we use math to show things which in this case easily shows rajas worth. if you want to use a different ring by all means go ahead, I will keep using rajas because I understand in full its benefits far outweigh 2-3 acc, especially when you can capp acc with other gear if your not cheap to use bream.

As for the sub /nin thing that would be a personal choice but do realize you will be out DD by everyone in your party every time unless they are gimp. Pup needs an offensive sub to compete. to tell yourself otherwise is just being overly biased on how good pup is and proves why we have the "lol" stigma still since anyone parsing would have a negative view on pup. Also if a mage cannot cover 600hp worth of cures a fight get a new one.... Its beyond easy to support mp if your not a lazy mage. I wish I could find the math post to show just how much mp you can really spend when you have cor+brd refresh. As a rdm with a 1k vert build you would never run out of mp if all DDs blood tanked. As for whm It is super easy now since c5 is so mp efficient and with /sch makes it even more so. Couple that with the stoneskin effect and your set. I really see no reason to sub /nin on pup. I refuse to mnk/nin even on birds as they are so weak, mmj is different since they actually do dmg. It also comes down to the fact I dont merit with gimps either so birds literally explode upon pull, thus they have no time to really hurt us lol. I usually will sam/war fulltime hasso at birds though now, and use seigan sometimes if the mage is lagging behind which is rarely, usually only if a bird somehow got 3 peckings off in a fight on a zerked person.

As for the food... sorry that was a mistake of mine. I was thinking Hq pizza stats vs nq crab lol.... I normally use HQ pizza on sam so im just use to thinking 11% and 55 attack. As you can see I said 55 attack in most my posts too when nq is really 50 lmao... so ya opps! Still i think 10 acc vs 55 attack would be in the attacks favor. You got to realize too while you maybe be 5% more accurate 50 attack is huge to your base stats. Pup normally runs 320 attack so adding 50 is a 15.6% gain.. thats quiet substantial. Then add in that when you zerk it goes up 25% too is pretty big boost. If it was crab vs pizza id go with pizza everytime. However bream is a different story. you get +6% over pizza and 5 dex (plus vit for SP though thats not important). that will be going off the above #s, 22.5 acc which is pretty substantial. 11%+ hit rate is going to outdo 50 attack easily every time. Bream is cheap too and as I stated you probably will never go more then 1 stack every hour and a half, I never have and I have a top of the line pup barring usu. If you cannot afford 6k per hour to merit there is something wrong with you since gold pieces sell for 10k+. However I would always use crab over pizza at birds if i was to cheap for bream since i dont have the inv space nor want to spend 30k an hr to merit lol.

[Rhayve]

azagarth1, on 13 January 2010 - 02:05 PM, said:

Yes I know its probability which was reason for my example. Obviously it wont happened every time but over the course of a few hours rajas will output a few extra WS's. The fact you will miss 5% of the time really makes it easy to see that rajas will often save you a hit from those misses. We cannot account for when you miss or anything, we just know it will happen and thus we use math to show things which in this case easily shows rajas worth. if you want to use a different ring by all means go ahead, I will keep using rajas because I understand in full its benefits far outweigh 2-3 acc, especially when you can capp acc with other gear if your not cheap to use bream.

If we're talking about the best rings here, the difference between Rajas and Toreador's ring are 4.5 Acc, not only 2-3, which is a very noticable difference for your hit rate. And even though I'm repeating myself, the average PUP with some Haste gear will parse 75-85% Accuracy on the weakest of birds depending on gear, including some Usukane, using Crab sushi. So yeah, any hit to Accuracy does hurt.

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As for the sub /nin thing that would be a personal choice but do realize you will be out DD by everyone in your party every time unless they are gimp. Pup needs an offensive sub to compete. to tell yourself otherwise is just being overly biased on how good pup is and proves why we have the "lol" stigma still since anyone parsing would have a negative view on pup. Also if a mage cannot cover 600hp worth of cures a fight get a new one.... Its beyond easy to support mp if your not a lazy mage. I wish I could find the math post to show just how much mp you can really spend when you have cor+brd refresh. As a rdm with a 1k vert build you would never run out of mp if all DDs blood tanked. As for whm It is super easy now since c5 is so mp efficient and with /sch makes it even more so. Couple that with the stoneskin effect and your set. I really see no reason to sub /nin on pup. I refuse to mnk/nin even on birds as they are so weak, mmj is different since they actually do dmg. It also comes down to the fact I dont merit with gimps either so birds literally explode upon pull, thus they have no time to really hurt us lol. I usually will sam/war fulltime hasso at birds though now, and use seigan sometimes if the mage is lagging behind which is rarely, usually only if a bird somehow got 3 peckings off in a fight on a zerked person.

The bolded part is where you're absolutely wrong and it's proof why we are still lol'd at.Puppetmaster has a "lol" stigma because when PUP was released, it had basically nothing. No Howling Fist or Dragon Kick (not to mention they weren't buffed yet), no Soulsoother or Spiritreaver, crappy Automaton WSs, awful gear selection and so on. Not to mention 95% of all PUPs are seriously gimp.
PUP, if played well, can be a serious powerhouse. Granted, it cannot keep up with BLMs with nuking on Greater Wyrms due to resist rates, nor with a good Polearm Samurai, but with most other things, we can definitely keep up, if you do it right. Granted, it does require some Usukane, but to be a great SAM or MNK you need some Usukane, as well.

Also, in my book, a fully merited Samurai with Askar head, Hauby+1, C. Mantle, Byakkos, PCC, Swift, Bushinomimi etc. isn't really gimp. Maybe not the absolute best, but certainly far from weak. That's what I usually merit with.

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As for the food... sorry that was a mistake of mine. I was thinking Hq pizza stats vs nq crab lol.... I normally use HQ pizza on sam so im just use to thinking 11% and 55 attack. As you can see I said 55 attack in most my posts too when nq is really 50 lmao... so ya opps! Still i think 10 acc vs 55 attack would be in the attacks favor. You got to realize too while you maybe be 5% more accurate 50 attack is huge to your base stats. Pup normally runs 320 attack so adding 50 is a 15.6% gain.. thats quiet substantial. Then add in that when you zerk it goes up 25% too is pretty big boost. If it was crab vs pizza id go with pizza everytime. However bream is a different story. you get +6% over pizza and 5 dex (plus vit for SP though thats not important). that will be going off the above #s, 22.5 acc which is pretty substantial. 11%+ hit rate is going to outdo 50 attack easily every time. Bream is cheap too and as I stated you probably will never go more then 1 stack every hour and a half,I never have and I have a top of the line pup barring usu. If you cannot afford 6k per hour to merit there is something wrong with you since gold pieces sell for 10k+. However I would always use crab over pizza at birds if i was to cheap for bream since i dont have the inv space nor want to spend 30k an hr to merit lol.

Bream sushi is 10k per stack on my server, just for your information. And 1 stack per hour and a half? I wish I was losing my Sushi that slowly. I usually burn through a whole stack of sushi within 45 mins.
Anyway, while yes, the Attack is a substantial boost, the game isn't just about the biggest numbers, Accuracy is still always more important, in my opinion, since the increased damage per hit you gain is lost when you miss those attacks. Not to mention pizzas are hardly spammable.
Lastly, Usukane with it's great boosts to Accuracy as well as Haste is what allows PUPs to deal significant more damage. It allows you to reach high hit rates without sacrificing substantial amounts of Haste, which is a huge boost to DoT. I read your discussion with Dantaro and you were an advocator of a full Accuracy build over a full Haste build, maybe that is where your problem lies. The lack of Haste is very inhibiting to your performance, imho. Not to mention, if you go for a Haste build instead of a full Accuracy, it's pretty obvious why you'd opt for more Attack rather than more Accuracy, since you have no more need of the latter, which makes you kind of biased towards the food matter.

PS: Blocks of text for the win.

[azagarth1]

I love wall o txt too ;D

Anyhow I can see your point with the ring thing. If you have toreadors maybe then it could rival it... maybe.... But really either way the difference between the two is small. I prefer to ws more and hit a little hard (5str is pretty good boost to dot on pup). However If you go read the shitstorm of atonement pld build posts you will see why rajas is the best ring hands down for any melee pretty much

Your sam friend also seems a bit confused. Askar sucs since you lose 1 haste. Bushi imply he is using gkt which is fail all around on sam for merits at any camp... i rest my case there.

I really dont see you losing a stack every 45 mins, you do realize thats a piece every 3.75 mins basically? split between 2 other DDs who will have hate = or more than you, and your auto who will also be on receiving end of the mobs specials after he APS normaly..... ya good luck trying to convince me that the mobs will snatch morsal every 1 min on avg and every time get food. Double that to 2 mins and i could believe it, thus doubling your 45 mins to 1hr 30. Again i dont even need to prove this... hundreds of merits on pup and i never bring more then 2 stacks of bream which have never last less than 3 hrs normally, which is max ill ever meripo.

[Boldfinger]

I wish the boards for the good jobs had this much enthusiastic posting. /sigh

[pathwriter]

What's there to discuss when you're actually worthwhile? When your job lives at the bottom of the septic tank, though, it becomes important to be the prettiest turd.

[treelo]

Boldfinger, on 13 January 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

I wish the boards for the good jobs had this much enthusiastic posting. /sigh

We scared off most the naysayers a long time ago, all that's left are the trolls and egomaniacs. Since PUP blows like Katrina, they're still eager to prove us wrong. Lengthy posts aren't the way, just focus on proving you're better than a bunch of gimps and proclaim yourself a minor damage dealing deity.

It worked for me.

[Yhelothur]

Most of my time spent in game is on one of the biggest bandwagon jobs, yet even I can see the use that PUP has. It's not these guys' fault that you're ignorant to the major benefits of the job, and refuse to change your views, so do shut the fuck up and let the discussion continue.

[azagarth1]

You made me smile ;D and yes i hate the way the mnk and sam boards have become and thus rarely post there anymore. Pup people are just more fun and nice, even when we argue its with genuine curiosity and respect. not just so and so is better bc im an elite faggot and think so and my gears are so cool bc they come off a big hnm!

Now for questions for all the pups.

Ws set primarily str/vit/dex gears for mods or go for acc/attack! discuss!

[Yhelothur]

Accuracy & attack. Once you're sure you're capped, add a couple modifiers, if the modifier % is worth a shit. If it's not, more attack.

[Kleiner]

Stringing pummel, cap ACC above all else on the WS. Stringing Pummel is modded by accuracy. Miss even one swing and you're gonna lose a lot of damage compared to how much you might gain from equipping modifiers. If you're landing every swing, feel free to put on some STR.. however equipping for a VIT mod is just plain retarded.

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Not to mention 95% of all PUPs are seriously gimp.

this is why PUP is still lol'd at. Most PUPs I run into are horrendous. THIS is why we have discussion still happening on our forums. Im so sick and fucking tired of seeing 75 PUPs running around fulltiming -any- piece of AF1 or any piece of AF2 besides Gloves/Body, not having puppet attachments, and just an inability to control their puppet.

Please, PUPs of the world, STOP using Harleshot, or an even WORSE offense, the Valorshot (You people using Valoredge head on Sharpshop body are fucking RETARDED. If you're so GODDAMNED LAZY you cant manually position your puppet, use the fucking Harlequin head! Using valoredge head adds SEVENTEEN seconds to your puppets R.A timer! Harle only adds 5!)

Please, PUPs of the world, LEARN to control your maneuvers! If I keep seeing 75 PUPs who cant keep up their maneuvers to control a puppet's WS, im going to start shooting people. Im sick of seeing String Clipper/Chimera Ripper or Arcuballista/Daze going off -in succession-. Sometimes it happens, once every now and then is okay. but when you're fighting anything and your puppet uses these WSs 2-4 times a row, i fucking hate you.

Please, SE, let me /check the puppets! I can /check a player and see if he's gimp; please let me /check a puppet and see if IT'S gimp. I really dont wanna play with a PUP who has no turbo Charger/Attuner/Target Marker, or no Mana Channeler/Tranquilizer, or dipshits who dont know how to properly gear their puppets.

Please, PUPs of the world, merit properly! R.A merits are retarded unless all you want to do with your puppet is scream Look at my Armor Piercer! Unlock Vent/Role reversal. Max out Optimization, NOT fine tuning.


PUP is one of the more complicated jobs to play as in this game, i really wish there was an aptitude test to allow someone to play it.


Im not gonna even bother to make a long post about the argument above me.

Long story short.

Haste builds win in overal DoT if you're intelligent.

Bream sushi is retarded cheap and perfectly acceptable.

you're not losing stack of sushi as often as you say you are.

/WAR or /NIN depends on the situation. Yes you will do more damage /WAR, no you will not be automatically outparsed as /NIN. Know the capabilities of your heale rand the outputs of your party members (I.E check gear and decide accordling. all SAMs in shitty gear or DRGs who will be super Jumping their hate away? sub /NIN. Got some WARs who can voke or SAMs in good gear? sub WAR.

Rajas debate is moot. it depends on the gear you have. Store TP on Rajas is ignorable; you wont have enough sTP elsewhere to even have it make an increase unless you're wearing alot of Usukane. If you have Lavas/Kusha set, use it. the ACC is a big deal. If your ACC is good enough on WSs, macro it in. If you've got dual toreadors, fuck Rajas. Rajas is an excellent ring, never feel badly for using it; however, it is not end all.

If subbing WAR, reduce the damage you take by WSing intelligently. Keep an eye on your puppet's TP. know when he will Armor Peircer so you know when to Stringing Pummel. Have Role Reversal/Vent. Let your puppet take some hits if you gotta, role Reversal when the healer has MP or use oils as needed. Save your WSs for when the mob is isn't at 100% and wont be smacking your face in the whole time its alive. if you're using Windower and TParty, check your party member's TPs. if everyone is under 50% and you're at 100, dont WS while the mob has high health, no one will be getting it off you. Intelligent use of Flashbulb can be very good at reducing damage received.


Also, I repeat: Haste builds > ACC builds. Have enough ACC WITH your Haste build to make it worthwhile. However, going full ACC and eating Attack gear is going to result in a very weak PUP.

To the rest of you, PUP isn't the bottom of the septic tank anymore, don't let the morons who play this job let you think otherwise.

Thread done.

[Boldfinger]

Kleiner, on 14 January 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:

Long story short.

Are you sure?

[Rhayve]

azagarth1, on 13 January 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

I love wall o txt too ;D

Anyhow I can see your point with the ring thing. If you have toreadors maybe then it could rival it... maybe.... But really either way the difference between the two is small. I prefer to ws more and hit a little hard (5str is pretty good boost to dot on pup). However If you go read the shitstorm of atonement pld build posts you will see why rajas is the best ring hands down for any melee pretty much

Your sam friend also seems a bit confused. Askar sucs since you lose 1 haste. Bushi imply he is using gkt which is fail all around on sam for merits at any camp... i rest my case there.

I really dont see you losing a stack every 45 mins, you do realize thats a piece every 3.75 mins basically? split between 2 other DDs who will have hate = or more than you, and your auto who will also be on receiving end of the mobs specials after he APS normaly..... ya good luck trying to convince me that the mobs will snatch morsal every 1 min on avg and every time get food. Double that to 2 mins and i could believe it, thus doubling your 45 mins to 1hr 30. Again i dont even need to prove this... hundreds of merits on pup and i never bring more then 2 stacks of bream which have never last less than 3 hrs normally, which is max ill ever meripo.

The failtastic, lurking trolls aside, the reason why PLDs prefer the use of Rajas over a regular Accuracy ring is not only because of the STR/DEX/Subtle Blow, it's because the +5 Store TP shaves off a whole hit needed to reach 100% TP, allowing them to Atonement more often. The same goes for other DDs, especially SAM and /SAM, as well. If Rajas didn't have the Store TP paired with STR/DEX/Subtle Blow, but only one of those stats, nobody would bother using it.
All that aside, all those other DDs also have A- and A+ combat skills to work with, unlike PUP, who's stuck with a C for their main weapon. That's a difference of 44-51 Accuracy, which is huge. Those jobs can actually afford to drop some Accuracy for other stats without having to worry too much. Also, SAMs, DRGs, DRKs etc. all gain more Attack/Accuracy per point of DEX than us, being 2-handed weapon users

Askar zucchetto and Ace's helm are used for pretty much the same reason, additional STR and extra Accuracy (provided you actually still need any), while sacrificing only 1% Haste. 1% Haste is quite useful, but unless you're in a high Haste situation where every % counts, the additional Accuracy, STR, Attack etc. are going to provide slightly better results. I'm wrong in this regard, anybody with mathematical skills superior to mine, feel free to prove me wrong.
Anyway, a GKT SAM as such should usually outdamage any other DDs thanks to their rather overpowered job mechanics as such (save for a good DRG on birds). So while yes, a Polearm SAM on Birds may surely be out of league, so will it be for any other heavy DD. So what's wrong with comparing with the tier below that, which is generally, still accepted as very powerful?

Lastly, if I can help it, my Automaton won't be on the receiving end thanks to Ventriloquy, which usually makes me the main tank for a bit, as well, because Armor Piercer is extremely powerful. Of course, the recast doesn't keep up usually, but then again the mobs usually die from Armor Piercer, or at least shortly thereafter.
And as I already mentioned, when I have 100% TP, I'm going to WS as soon as I can, no matter whether the mob is freshly pulled or not. So when I open a fight with a WS, I'm gonna be tanking for a bit until someone else WSs, which often takes a few seconds, which is plenty to eat a TP move, including Snatch Morsel.
While yes, I agree that I may have exaggerated the rate at which I use up Sushi (playing a Polearm SAM I lose a full stack extremly fast if I'm unlucky, so maybe it kind of affected my judgement in this case), since I've more important things to keep track of during a meripo, I'm pretty sure I burn through a stack faster than 1,5h/stack, however.
Though this, like everything, varies from party to party. I'll try to track the use of my Sushi more closely the next time I meripo, in any case.

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Bream sushi is retarded cheap and perfectly acceptable.

Never said it wasn't acceptable, it's hands-down a better choice than Crab sushi. But if you burn through 5-6 stacks per meripo, you tend to opt for the sushi that's 6k cheaper per stack, rather than the more expensive one. If you have the gil, go ahead, but I'd prefer spending mine on equipment and Alexandrites.

[Kleiner]

Boldfinger, on 14 January 2010 - 03:21 AM, said:

Are you sure?

that was very short for me.

I PUP/WAR every party and I dont lose as much sushi as you claim to use. If I did, i'd be pissed, cause I use sole when I merit. Maybe cause I WS intelligently?

[Rhayve]

Kleiner, on 14 January 2010 - 03:36 AM, said:

that was very short for me.

I PUP/WAR every party and I dont lose as much sushi as you claim to use. If I did, i'd be pissed, cause I use sole when I merit. Maybe cause I WS intelligently?

As I mentioned above, I use /NIN, I don't need to hold back on my WSs nor do I have to worry about using Ventriloquy, because I don't have to fear getting my face beaten in. Therefore I pull hate a lot more often, which leads to losing food more often, as well. Storing TP while using Waghs is nothing but detrimental, anyway. Also, holding back reduces your overall damage, which leads to decreasing the additional benefits that /WAR grants, to a certain degree.

Edit: Edited the "abrasive" part out, as Yhelothur deemed it too harsh. Though I don't see how a tiny bit of sarcasm hurts the discussion.

[Yhelothur]

Well, so much for being civil. For all this shit-talking of trolls, there's no need to be so abrasive yourself.

[Kleiner]

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because I don't have to fear getting my face beaten in

Neither do I, because I don't mash my WS macro the second a new bird is pulled.

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Storing TP while using Waghs is nothing but detrimental, anyway.

I dont use Waghs.

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holding back reduces your overall damage, which leads to decreasing the additional benefits that /WAR grants, to a certain degree.

Using /WAR, Double Attack and Berserk results in overal higher DPS than /NIN, even if I hold back. Im never gonna have to wait more than 1 MAYBE two punches, and since i'm /WAR (and not casting shadows) I'm still gonna TP at the same speed, or faster, than you, in equivalent amounts of haste.


In the end, I have already said /NIN can be necessary at times. However, playing /WAR intelligently (as in, not letting yourself get for face beat in, while still maximizing damage) is going to do more overall damage than /NIN.

[Rhayve]

Kleiner, on 14 January 2010 - 05:54 AM, said:

Neither do I, because I don't mash my WS macro the second a new bird is pulled.

I dont use Waghs.

What do you use then, if I may ask? I'm assuming Oberon's sainti, I'd use a pair as well, if the Augment system wasn't being such a bitch. Regardless, I'd still use my TP as soon as I hit 100% TP, because that is maximizing my damage output as /NIN, and even if I didn't do that, I would waste about 10-50% TP each WS, and that adds up quickly.

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Using /WAR, Double Attack and Berserk results in overal higher DPS than /NIN, even if I hold back. Im never gonna have to wait more than 1 MAYBE two punches, and since i'm /WAR (and not casting shadows) I'm still gonna TP at the same speed, or faster, than you, in equivalent amounts of haste.


In the end, I have already said /NIN can be necessary at times. However, playing /WAR intelligently (as in, not letting yourself get for face beat in, while still maximizing damage) is going to do more overall damage than /NIN.

I never claimed that /WAR isn't superior in terms of damage output, but even if you play /WAR intelligently, you waste a lot of potential damage by storing TP and sometimes still be a MP sponge. If there are other /WARs in your party, the healer's MP sometimes does not keep up. I do not share the general NA mentality, I favor /NIN over more offensive subs, much like the JP community, because maximum damage output at the cost of everything else isn't the end-all, be-all solution.
But if you can find a willing RDM to cure-spam you guys, go ahead. I usually merit with JPs or people that share similar opinions and pull off 25k-30k~ depending on camp, regardless.

[Kleiner]

Hades Sainti are my weapon of choice, simply because I get irritated at Wagh's TP limits.

I play WHM and I know what healers are capable of. If i'm MP sponging, i'm gonna change subs. However, Most of the time i'm -NOT- gonna be an MP sponge, cause im gonna play smart.

And yes, I agree, maximum damage output isn't the end all solution.. why lse would I hold back? I eel feel playing /WAR with a bit of care and precision is going to provide me the best balance between damage and survivability.

[Rhayve]

While yes, you can play /WAR carefully, but if you want to Ventriloquy for your Automaton after an Armor Piercer, you'll definitely be taking some hits, which is why /NIN is useful. To control the maton's WS, however, you would have to completely disengage it until the mob's HP is low enough, if you wish to avoid damage, which costs you additional damage output, as it will no longer be meleeing or shooting.