[Jazz]

So I came across a few recent posts on Blue Gartr regarding the Martial GreatSword and 7hit build....

Here is the link: http://www.bluegartr...d.php?p=3392879

I think it was some on that page and the previous one, anyway...Nameless and a couple other people discussed it and someone even claimed that Martial sword with 7hit was the best GS, but you guys take a look at the link and decide for yourselves.

That being said, I at least found it interesting, so I'm going to contribute here some...

First, I would like to compare the "exact time in seconds" that martial 7hit build with 444 delay takes to get to 100% TP to the exact time in seconds that Naglering 6hit build with 501 delay takes to get to 100% TP.

Below is the data including different Haste levels:

First data:
Going from 0 to 100% TP, it takes Martial 7 hits to 100% TP and it takes Naglering 6 hits to 100% TP.

Martial sword: 444 delay                                                                    

No haste: 51.8 sec. to 100%                                                                            

17% haste(17% gear haste): 42.994 sec. to 100%

27% haste(17% gear + hasso): 37.814 sec. to 100%

32% haste(17% gear + 15%mage spell): 35.224 sec. to 100%  

37% haste(17% gear + 20%DesperateBlows): 32.634 sec. to 100% 

42% haste(17% gear + 10%hasso+ 15%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + hasso + mage spell): 30.044 sec to 100%

52% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 20%DesperateBlows): 24.864 sec. to 100%

57% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 25%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + mage spell + hasso + 15%DesperateBlows): 22.274 sec. to 100%

80% haste(For the lolz...): 10.36 sec. to 100%

Naglering: 501 delay                                                                    

No haste: 50.1 sec. to 100%                                                                            

17% haste(17% gear haste): 41.583 sec. to 100%

27% haste(17% gear + hasso): 36.573 sec. to 100%

32% haste(17% gear + 15%mage spell): 34.068 sec. to 100%  

37% haste(17% gear + 20%DesperateBlows): 31.563 sec. to 100% 

42% haste(17% gear + 10%hasso+ 15%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + hasso + mage spell): 29.058 sec to 100%

52% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 20%DesperateBlows): 24.048 sec. to 100%

57% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 25%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + mage spell + hasso + 15%DesperateBlows): 21.543 sec. to 100%

80% haste(For the lolz...): 10.02 sec. to 100%

Second data:
Going after a WeaponSkill(as long as you do not miss the WS), it takes Martial 6 hits to 100% TP and it takes Naglering 5 hits to 100% TP.

Martial sword: 444 delay                                                                    

No haste: 44.4 sec. to 100%                                                                            

17% haste(17% gear haste): 36.852 sec. to 100%

27% haste(17% gear + hasso): 32.412 sec. to 100%

32% haste(17% gear + 15%mage spell): 30.192 sec. to 100%  

37% haste(17% gear + 20%DesperateBlows): 27.972 sec. to 100% 

42% haste(17% gear + 10%hasso+ 15%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + hasso + mage spell): 25.752 sec to 100%

52% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 20%DesperateBlows): 21.312 sec. to 100%

57% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 25%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + mage spell + hasso + 15%DesperateBlows): 19.092 sec. to 100%

64% haste(Looks like a good number...): 15.984 sec. to 100%

80% haste(For the lolz...): 8.88 sec. to 100%

Naglering: 501 delay                                                                    

No haste: 41.75 sec. to 100%                                                                            

17% haste(17% gear haste): 34.6525 sec. to 100%

27% haste(17% gear + hasso): 30.4775 sec. to 100%

32% haste(17% gear + 15%mage spell): 28.39 sec. to 100%  

37% haste(17% gear + 20%DesperateBlows): 26.3025 sec. to 100% 

42% haste(17% gear + 10%hasso+ 15%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + hasso + mage spell): 24.215 sec to 100%

52% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 20%DesperateBlows): 20.04 sec. to 100%

57% haste(17% gear + mage spell + 25%DesperateBlows OR 17% gear + mage spell + hasso + 15%DesperateBlows): 17.9525 sec. to 100%

64% haste(Looks like a good number...): 15.03 sec. to 100% 

80% haste(For the lolz...): 8.35 sec. to 100%                              

Now, going by the data above....you can see that the time that Martial 7hit takes to get to 100% TP is not that much more than Naglering 6hit, AND the higher your haste level is, the smaller the difference in time to 100% TP gets between the two weapons.

You can note that going from 0 to 100% TP(Martial takes 7hits and Naglering takes 6hits), Naglering will get to 100% 1.4 sec. faster than martial with both weapons having only 17% haste, but with both having 42% haste, naglering will get to 100% only 0.9 sec. faster than Martial.

Then you can also note that going after a WeaponSkill(Martial takes 6hits and Naglering takes 5hits), Naglering will get to 100% 2.1 sec. faster than martial with both weapons having only 17% haste, but with both having 64% haste, naglering will get to 100% only 0.9 sec. faster than Martial.

Now that all that is out of the way....Naglering has damage:85 and attack+20, while Martial sword has damage: 76; however, while both get to 100% around a similar amount of time, Martial also does a swing more(which equals damage etc.),

AND most importantly,(just like Hagun for Samurais) Martial sword also comes with the TP bonus effect, which increases your spinning slash WS damage by 20%, and your ground strike WS damage by 16.67% when doing those WSs at 100% TP(And if by any chance you have 200%TP, your GroundStrike damage will be increased by 71.43%).


That is because of the GS's WS multipliers, which increase with TP:

Spinning Slash: 2.50 at 100% TP, 3.00 at 200% TP, and 3.50 at 300% TP, with 30% STR and 30% INT modifiers.
http://wiki.ffxiclop.../Spinning_Slash

Ground Strike: 1.50 at 100% TP, 1.75 at 200% TP, and 3.00 at 300% TP, with 50% STR and 50% INT modifiers.
http://wiki.ffxiclop...i/Ground_Strike

In addition, it was found that Spinning Slash WS comes with a 1.5 multiplier to cRatio to the WS calculation, therefore, the Attack+20 from Naglering many times will do absolutely nothing for Spinning Slash.

It was also found that Ground Strikes WS comes with a 1.75 multiplier to cRatio to the WS calculation, therefore, the Attack+20 from Naglering many times will do absolutely nothing for Ground Strike.

Many times, you will also not be going exactly from 0 to 100% TP or taking 5 or 6 hits(in the case of Naglering) or 6 or 7hits(in the case of Martial) to 100% TP, due to Meditate AND Absorb-TP,

which will be in favor of Martial sword because of the higher WS damage(the more your damage comes from WS, the better Martial will be too).

Another point is when doing SkillChains, which is one place where you would actually get GS out for(others are mobs with incredibly high defense and/or evasion), is that since Martial should hit harder on WS and you are closing the skillchain, more often than not, skillchain damage will be higher as well because it can be equal to the damage of the closing WS.

Further, it is also interesting to note the Naglering has a DPS(damage per second) of 10.18, while Martial Sword has a DPS of 10.27, so Martial Sword actually has a higher DPS than Naglering....


I would also just like to state the amount of Store TP required to get a Naglering 6hit and the amount of Store TP required to get a Martial Sword 7hit.

It takes Naglering 23 StoreTP while TP and 22 StoreTP while WS for a 6hit build. (which is one of Naglering's strong points; easiest GS to 6hit...)

And it takes Martial Sword either 28 StoreTP while TP and 21 StoreTP while WS... OR just, 27 StoreTP while TP and 26 StoreTP while WS for a 7hit build.

So the way you could do Martial sword 7hit build (or any other 444 delay GS, like Subduer for that matter...) is with:

/sam sub, Rajas ring, Brutal earring, Rose Strap, Ecphoria Ring, and Atillas's earring. which = 27 StoreTP for TP, and for WS you will need to use the Atillas's earring for the 26 StoreTP for WS..

(Using Atillas's earring isn't a sacrifice at all over Assault earring for WS on weak mobs(plus you need it for your X-hit build), and shouldn't be "THAT" big of a difference on higher level mobs, plus you can also augment Atillas's earring and then have no sacrifice at all and possibly make it even better, that is if you get good augments of course...)

(so only "sacrifice" on WS, which really is not that bad, is that you have to use Atillas's earring for WS, and there is little to no sacrifice on TP, you can wear Hauberk+1 or Ebody if you have it etc...no need for Askar body or Aurum body if you're using Rose Strap.)

(Using Atillas's earring instead of chivalrous chain for TP, allows you to wear either Prudence Torque or Peacock Charm on your neck slot, if you have either of those, and you could possibly augment Attilas's earring with something nice; otherwise, you could also just do Ecphoria ring + Chivalrous chain and then you can wear Ethereal earring or Assault earring instead of Attillas's earring for TP.)

Finally, here's a possible TP set for Martial sword 7 hit build:

input /equip main "Martial Sword"; (worth mentioning that it is also possible to augment this weapon)
input /equip sub "Rose Strap";
input /equip ammo "Fire Bomblet";
input /equip head "Ace's Helm";
input /equip neck "Prudence Torque";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Attilas's Earring"; (worth mentioning that you could possibly get some augments on this earring)
input /equip body "Adaman Hauberk";
input /equip hands "Homam Manopolas";
input /equip ring1 "Rajas Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Ecphoria Ring";
input /equip back "Cuchulain's Mantle";
input /equip waist "Swift belt";
input /equip legs "Blitzer Poleyn"; (ASA add-on pants, with Haste+3% and Acc+7)
input /equip feet "Homam Gambieras";

Anyway, that is all....I do apologize, this post came out incredibly long...a lot more than I expected but I do believe some people might find it interesting...if you don't, or don't care, well you did not have to read it.

Edit: fixed the Store TP numbers needed for Martial sword 7hit build using Rose strap. So the real numbers are: 27 StoreTP during TP, and 26 StoreTP during WS (you basically just have to WS with Attilas's earring to get the +26 StoreTP during WS...).

[Ezekial]

Durrrr?

[Boldfinger]

What is this I don't even

[Nameless]

It is actually a very good setup. Naglering will only be better than this against HNM. On paper, this is as good as it gets for GS when accuracy isn't a concern (it shouldn't be even with the sacrifice due to Pizza), and since the split between WS and DoT for GS is like 0.6:0.4 to begin with, a 20% boost in WS is huge. And if you know how ws damage is calculated, base damage actually has very little effect. Comparing a 76 damage weapon and 85 damage weapon with 150 str and 70 int on spinning slash, you are roughly comparing 76 (D) + 16 (fstr) + 56 (WSC) = 148 to 85 (D) + 17 (fstr) + 56 (WSC) = 158. So 10/148 = 6.75%. And the tp bonus which will bring Spinning slash from 2.5 ftp to 3.0 ftp is a 20% increase in damage, will be more than enough to cover that 6.75% disadvantage from 9 base damage.

So hit build wise, even tho one is 7 hit build and one is 6 hit build, because of the low delay, the amount of time to reach 100% is almost the same with Naglering gaining about 6% in WS frequency. Tho you do get 1 extra hit of damage to reach there so you are not losing anything on DoT from losing 20 att. In the end, the 20% increase in WS damage is just too big to overcome for Naglering when acc is not a problem. In most situations, the 20 attack won't do much either for your WS damage.

So yea, this is not some stupid idea. I finally was able to get a martial sword last night and tried it. It was pretty amazing, and I own a Naglering too.

PS: and if you do own Naglering and use it occasionally, you will know that with Meditate, it will bring you to 99% tp alot of time, which in other word is waste tp. Martial sword doesn't have that problem at all, you will be at 102% with meditate after 3 hits.

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 23 January 2010 - 02:43 PM, said:

It is actually a very good setup. Naglering will only be better than this against HNM. On paper, this is as good as it gets for GS when accuracy isn't a concern (it shouldn't be even with the sacrifice due to Pizza)

Well on that "possible TP set for Martial sword 7 hit build" that I showed near the end of my original post, you can see that with that, you get Accuracy +77.25

Fire bomblet +6
Ace's Helm +7
Prudence Torque +6
Adaman Hauberk +22.5
Homam Manopolas +4
Rajas Ring +3.75
Ecphoria Ring +4
Cuchulain's Mantle +8
Swift Belt +3
Blister Poleyn +7
Homam Gambieras +6

Total = Accuracy +77.25

Then it will help a lot if you also have Max Great sword merits too (I personally have both max Scythe and max Great sword merits)

Then there is also Max Diabolic Eye merits, which will give you accuracy+20 for 3 minutes, and with a 5 minutes recast.

Then there is hasso for another accuracy +10

Then there is Souleater which also gives you accuracy +25, I know you should not be relying on Souleater...and I'm really not....but that is a nice bonus for when you have it up and if you do know what you're doing you should be using Souleater some on HNMs..(I don't mean for zerg in this case) you can even have a key bind with a "cancel Souleater macro" if you use windower, so you can use it for a few hits and then cancel it or just click it off if necessary.

Finally, and you did mention this one Nameless, there is also Pizza or Pizza+1 which is what I usually use when fighting HNMs or Mamools.. and Pizza on top of what I already mentioned above will increase your accuracy by 10% to 11% (depending on if you use the NQ or HQ pizza).

Oh! and for the lolz... there is also this: http://www.bluegartr...?t=84153&page=3

Just some Zanshin tests done on BG (which you probably already know of...).

So...basically according to that link above and their testing, Zanshin has a 25% proc rate for /sam sub. and each Zanshin hit comes with a +34 accuracy bonus or a bonus of +17% hit rate. I also realize that we should not really gear with less accuracy because of Zanshin, I am not suggesting that we definitely put less accuracy in our TP sets because of Zanshin; however, I am just pointing out that Zanshin is still a nice bonus that's there too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that on paper, it seems to me like you "can" have enough accuracy for Martial sword 7hit build to pull ahead and beat Naglering against HNMs too, not just weak mobs. Though to be honest, I have not personally tested it on HNMs yet...but various things seem to indicate that it can work great on HNMs too depending on your GS setup etc.

Also the "accuracy advantage" that Naglering 6hit has of +7 accuracy (+4 from the weapon and +3 if you wear Toreador's ring over ecphoria's +4 by using rose strap with Naglering too.), really is only 3.5% hit rate and I don't think is "THAT" much to completely make naglering better on HNM just because of that.. and it is worth mentioning that if you were able to get some nice ACC+ and/or Dex+ augments on either attilas's earring or your Martial sword... the very small ACC advantage from Naglering could be nullified.

Edit: I do agree with everything else you mentioned Nameless.

[Nameless]

You are right on the ACC part, it really isn't that big of a deal now a day with DE, pizza, zanshin etc. Drk is probably the most accurate melee job in the game.

On HNM, what I worry the most about is actually the attack loss. Even with 50% ratio bonus, you are unlikely to cap on real hard stuff. Therefore, 20 attack, especially consider clvl making it even more attractive, will have an effect. Also, I must note that you will actually need 26 store tp during WS, so you have to use attila's earring, which I believe is the best sacrifice over neck or ring. So if you normally use assault earring, you are losing 25 attack. That will bring the gap between the two closer and perhaps bring Naglering over the top consider it does have 9 acc advantage, which you also won't cap on HNM even with pizza.

I will give it a try on HNM next time. I like it alot last night when I used it on weaker stuff. One thing I like the most is that it takes advantage of LR and SE with its low delay. So you are getting more out of the two abilities. I also have capped GS merit and scythe merit and I use GS a lot more than I should.

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 24 January 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

Also, I must note that you will actually need 26 store tp during WS

Ok like I said, I honestly have not test it on HNM yet, I do know the Cratio bonus is not enough to completely cap you on higher level mobs...but I think it maybe be pretty close between Naglering and Martial at least(not completely sure..), and I am interested in what you find when you test Martial on HNM next time.

Now as for needing 26 store TP during WS... ummm....maybe I did the math wrong and you can correct me if that's the case but according to this formula: 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270], taken from this wiki link: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP .... Martial sword gives 11.3 TP base TP per hit with no StoreTP+ so... 11.3 X .27 storeTP = 3.051 + 11.3 = 14.351 TP per hit once you add the Store TP +27 during TP, then 14.351 X 6 = 86.106..... now for during WS 11.3 X .25 = 2.825 + 11.3 = 14.125

So, 14.125 + 86.106 = 100.231... so I'm not sure what is wrong there, according to that math, with +27 StoreTP during TP and +25 during WS it should put you at 100.231 or in other words... 100% TP.

[Tikki]

Nameless, on 24 January 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

Drk is probably the most accurate melee job in the game.

Do pardon me while I laugh my ass off here.

[Nameless]

Tikki, on 24 January 2010 - 04:37 AM, said:

Do pardon me while I laugh my ass off here.

Do pardon me while I ask which melee job do you think is the most accurate. Don't make me laugh if you think it is Drg lol.....

P.S: just to give you a hint. Despite Drg's accuracy bonus trait, which is 22 acc, Drg can't use adaberk, can't use fire bomblet, doesn't have a DM earring for polearm skill, doesn't have perdu weapons for 5 acc. Drg also don't have JA that can boost accuracy like Diabolic eye, or aggressor, or souleater. And Drk does have absorb-acc to use when really needed, which again, is an "option" when you need acc. This make Drk the most accurate melee job in the game without a doubt. Trust me, I have Drg lvled and pretty good gears to go with it (aurum's cuirass, love torque, homams etc). It doesn't have nearly the accuracy on HNM stuff as my Drk.

[Nameless]

Jazz, on 24 January 2010 - 01:33 AM, said:

Ok like I said, I honestly have not test it on HNM yet, I do know the Cratio bonus is not enough to completely cap you on higher level mobs...but I think it maybe be pretty close between Naglering and Martial at least(not completely sure..), and I am interested in what you find when you test Martial on HNM next time.

Now as for needing 26 store TP during WS... ummm....maybe I did the math wrong and you can correct me if that's the case but according to this formula: 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270], taken from this wiki link: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP .... Martial sword gives 11.3 TP base TP per hit with no StoreTP+ so... 11.3 X .27 storeTP = 3.051 + 11.3 = 14.351 TP per hit once you add the Store TP +27 during TP, then 14.351 X 6 = 86.106..... now for during WS 11.3 X .25 = 2.825 + 11.3 = 14.125

So, 14.125 + 86.106 = 100.231... so I'm not sure what is wrong there, according to that math, with +27 StoreTP during TP and +25 during WS it should put you at 100.231 or in other words... 100% TP.

When calculating tp per hit, you have to floor your number to the 0.1 decimal. So 14.351 will be 14.3 per hit. That's why you have extra tp in your calculation.

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 24 January 2010 - 11:37 AM, said:

When calculating tp per hit, you have to floor your number to the 0.1 decimal. So 14.351 will be 14.3 per hit. That's why you have extra tp in your calculation.

Ok, you are right there...

It is just like how with Naglering, if you don't floor the numbers then you could do +23 StoreTP during TP and +21 StoreTP during WS, which would be 83.64 + 14.456 = 100.096% TP.. but I do own a Naglering too and I know for a fact that that does not work because I actually went out and tested and you do need the +22 StoreTP for WS there.(so with my Naglering I had been using pole strap, and Prudence Torque + Atillas's earring + ecphoria ring combo for TP and Atillas's earring for WS). Once you do it right and floor the numbers if you do +23 StoreTP for TP and +21 StoreTP for WS with Naglering, it would be 83.5 + 16.4 = 99.99% TP ... then if you do it with +23 StoreTP for TP and +22 StoreTP for WS, it would be 83.5 + 16.5 = 100% TP.

Now for Martial sword, yeah... once you do it correctly and floor the numbers here too...if you do +27 StoreTP during TP and +25 StoreTP during WS, it would be 85.8 + 14.1 = 99.9% TP.... then if you do it with +27 for TP and +26 for WS, it would be 85.8 + 14.2 = 100% TP.

So actually thanks for the clarification there...I also went and edited the original post to show that you actually need +27 StoreTP during TP and +26 StoreTP during WS for Martial sword 7hit build if using Rose strap(which is the best option for this Martial 7hit build).

Also, main reason I have not tested this myself on HNM yet is because I pretty much have all the items listed in that "possible TP set for Martial sword 7 hit build" in the original post, except for the Rose strap...which is the most essential item for that setup lol...
However, I did try the Martial sword 7hit build with the +28 StoreTP during TP and +21 StoreTP during WS setup, using Askar body + Prudence + Atillas's earring + ecphoria ring during TP combo....it was just some tests on weak mobs where I knew my accuracy was capped without the body acc, so it was good...but yeah I am not taking that to HNM until I can do the Rose strap setup...(so I guess if using GS on HNM, I'll continue using my Naglering 6hit, at least until I can get a rose strap and do some more tests with the other Martial 7hit setup on stronger mobs etc.)

Not that anybody here really cares but... the reason I don't have a Rose Strap at the moment is because I never really liked campaign much so I only have like 6 medals so far...I am currently doing it more now though because now I want not only a Rose Strap but also a Crimson belt for my Dark magic set, Sturm's Report for my Dark magic and enfeebling magic sets(for DRK and my other jobs too), and a Patronus ring for my -physical damage reduction % set...but campaign is so boring some times... ; ;

[Nameless]

Yea, i have spent a junk load of AN.... Full IR set for my Pld MDB set... Rose strap.... Patronus ring.... Sturm's report.... I plan to get crimson belt and maybe Cougar's gorget if I can't get my hand on bloodbead gorget. I don't mind campaign as I usually go as Drg/blu or Drg/whm and just have fun with my HB macros. As long as you can hold your own, you will enjoy campaign.

[Tikki]

Nameless, on 24 January 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

doesn't have a DM earring for polearm skill

So are you talking drk with gsword for best acc, or drk with scythe.

[Jazz]

Tikki, on 24 January 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

So are you talking drk with gsword for best acc, or drk with scythe.

I didn't really want to go off topic but.... I believe Nameless was talking about DRK's accuracy in general not just about one of its A weapons....

To answer your question, clearly when he was talking about DRG and said "doesn't have a DM earring for polearm skill" ...he was talking about DRK with scythe as just one of his arguments, he was not comparing GS drk to Polearm DRG, he was comparing DRK's accuracy to DRG's accuracy in general and he does have excellent gears for both his DRK and his DRG....although really that is irrelevant because you should still be able to see how DRK can have more accuracy.

What he said is true, DRK now can have Diabolic Eye Job ability that gives accuracy+20 for 3 minutes with a 5 minutes recast, access to excellent accuracy+ gear, souleater with accuracy+25, Absorb-dex and Absorb-acc can be options too etc..

Pizza or Pizza+1 is awesome food. DRK is also a 2handed DD with both of its A weapons so it gets the 2handed bonus when calculating acc from dex. Then if /sam, there is Hasso accuracy+10, and zanshin's proc rate of +25% and each zanshin hit also has +17% hit rate or +34 acc... but of course, the Food, 2handed DD, and /sam benefits DRG can have too.

It is ironic though... how people would laugh about DRK being a very inaccurate job...(and some still do apparently....) but in reality, DRK is now a very accurate job believe it or not.

[Nameless]

With scythe it has the best acc of all melee class. With GS it does sacrifice alot of acc compare to scythe, but as I mentioned, with JA, spell, and equip options, it doesn't take as big a hit as the other jobs would have if they were to use their secondary weapon. But yea, if you mean GS, then it doesn't have the best acc compare to other melees, about in par I believe. What I was saying is that drk has room to sacrifice with using GS and pursuing a hit build since they are the most accurate melee job to begin with.

[Jazz]

This thread is mainly about Martial sword's 7hit build as /sam and maybe how it compares to other GS options like Naglering 6hit build as /sam etc.

But....

In case anyone was wondering... if you are not /sam, but subbing something else like /nin or /thf(farming? lol), you would need 12 StoreTP during TP and 6 StoreTP during WS for an 8hit build with Martial Sword...which in terms of gear, it is pretty much the same thing that you need to wear for your 7hit build as /sam... (except that in this case, you do not need to WS with atillas's earring)

That is, you need either: Rose strap + Rajas Ring + Brutal Earring + Atillas's Earring(so you can wear Prudence torque or peacock charm, specially if you can augment your Atillas's Earring with something nice...) + Ecphoria Ring = +12 StoreTP during TP.

OR..... Rose Strap + Rajas Ring + Brutal Earring + Chivalrous Chain + Ecphoria Ring = +12 StoreTP during TP.

as for WS, just the standard Rajas ring + Brutal Earring = +6 StoreTP during WS.

And if you wanted to know for Naglering 7hit build has /nin or any other sub other than /sam... it would be: 6 StoreTP during TP, and the standard 6 StoreTP during WS.

[Boldfinger]

Boldfinger, on 22 January 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

What is this I don't even

[Argettio]

Certainly an interesting concept, and does have merit.

The problem I see is; the number of situations where GS > Scythe are low (assuming you are suitably buffed) these days.

And it has already been mentioned that Naglering could beat the Martial when you are facing mobs with very high Def (if you account for damage from the TP phase). So the Martial fits in a niche between Scythe and Naglering.... That's a small hole to squeeze in.

The main use I can see for this is when you build TP off the mob (meditate or near by mobs) and then run in to WS, but that is a rare strategy. And if you where do fighting that way (maybe DI) you would use a SAM (given the choice).

[Jazz]

Argettio, on 25 January 2010 - 09:09 AM, said:

Certainly an interesting concept, and does have merit.

The problem I see is; the number of situations where GS > Scythe are low (assuming you are suitably buffed) these days.

And it has already been mentioned that Naglering could beat the Martial when you are facing mobs with very high Def (if you account for damage from the TP phase). So the Martial fits in a niche between Scythe and Naglering.... That's a small hole to squeeze in.

The main use I can see for this is when you build TP off the mob (meditate or near by mobs) and then run in to WS, but that is a rare strategy. And if you where do fighting that way (maybe DI) you would use a SAM (given the choice).

Well to tell you the truth, I will still like to try this set myself on HNM and see how it compares to my Naglering there, considering they do get to 100% almost at the same time, but martial also does a swing more on the way to 100%(this should perhaps allow it to make up on some melee DoT?), then there's the TP bonus on Martial for more WS damage, and Meditate(specially Absorb-TP too if you have a very solid Darkmagic set and can actually land it on whatever you are fighting) will benefit Martial. And as Nameless mentioned, martial can take advantage of LR and SE with its low delay...and it has a higher DPS than Naglering too lol although DPS is not that important, I know..., and of course all this provided with pretty good gear, GS merits, and Accuracy Job abilites, zanshin, pizza +1 etc...that accuracy is not a problem for you...because yeah if acc is "really" a problem then of course martial should logically fall behind...though Naglering's "acc advantage" over Martial is really not big... as stated before already...

And if all that really fails for Martial in the end.. then yeah I guess you could use it on weaker stuff if you just wanted to use GS for whatever reason, or skillchains, or perhaps DL maybe yeah... but again, I'm still not sure about Naglering beating it on HNM, considering what a good Martial 7hit also has going for it.

I'm still some medals away from getting my Rose strap... so I'm kinda hoping that maybe Nameless will come back with some tests on it on HNMs since he did say he would give it a try on HNM next time, and I think he already has all the gear needed for that set.

[Argettio]

I am gonna pulls some numbers out my ass here:

Generic HNM (some where around Cerb/Khim... very roughly)
Defence 500
VIT: 80
LVL 85

Naglering:
D: 85
Attack: 500
STR: 100
Average melee hit: 62

Martial:
D: 76
Attack: 480
STR: 100
Average melee hit: 53

Naglering does 17% more damage per hit, but the Martial hits swings 16% more times in a fix length of time. So Naglering has better DoT (just) on this random mob. So on this hypothetical mobs you would want to use the Martial Sword, as the DoT are close (~2%) but Martial has the advantage in WS.

As the mob level (Tia) and the defence (Kirin/JoL) increases the 20 attack on Naglering will become more influential on you overall damage.

Based on that I would consider using Martial instead of Naglering on all but the highest lvl and highest defence mobs.

Scythe is obviously going to win on weak stuff, but how far you can go with it is very dependent on buffs, if you well buffed then scythe could take you a long way (nearly up to the point where you would swap from scythe to Naglering). But if you aren't buffed then Martial could cover everything above merit mobs all the way up to HNMs (with the top end HNMs being Naglering's territory).

Some would argue that you should take a bard and cor to everything so Martial has no use, but we all know that doesn't always happen.