[Ezekial]

what about Algol and Subduer?

[Argettio]

Ezekial, on 30 January 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

what about Algol and Subduer?

Naglering is the best 'normal' GS available as it has the best all round stats.

The point of this thread is, in certain situations the TP bonus on the Martial is enough to overcome the 'better' stats of the Nag. NOT a general observation about 7 hit vs 6 hit Great sword builds.

[Ezekial]

That didn't answer my question at all D:

[Argettio]

Ezekial, on 01 February 2010 - 01:42 PM, said:

That didn't answer my question at all D:

a) your question was ambiguous, with no clear reference point. What about them? Are they both great swords... was that the question? Are they any good? Are they worth using? WHAT?
Neither are as good as the Naglering, and as the Naglering is easy enough to get, it is now the only really acceptable Great sword.

[Nameless]

Subduer is the worst of the big 4 (algol, nag, martial, subduer). The idea of GS is WS, and it does nothing to help you on the WS side since you can't critical hit spinning slash. Algol is good whenever Martial is good. Both requires sacrificing accuracy to reach their hit build. Algol is good in the sense that it has slightly lower delay than Nag yet can also reach 6 hit, and triple attack helps your TP gain for more WS and higher WS damage. In a capped accuracy situation, which you will most likely not need attack for spinning slash, Algol is better than Naglering. I still need to run number on Martial vs Algol in the situations where they are better than Naglering to see which is better. But I will bet on Martial being superior again. You just can't beat 20% higher ws damage.

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 02 February 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

Subduer is the worst of the big 4 (algol, nag, martial, subduer). The idea of GS is WS, and it does nothing to help you on the WS side since you can't critical hit spinning slash. Algol is good whenever Martial is good. Both requires sacrificing accuracy to reach their hit build. Algol is good in the sense that it has slightly lower delay than Nag yet can also reach 6 hit, and triple attack helps your TP gain for more WS and higher WS damage. In a capped accuracy situation, which you will most likely not need attack for spinning slash, Algol is better than Naglering. I still need to run number on Martial vs Algol in the situations where they are better than Naglering to see which is better. But I will bet on Martial being superior again. You just can't beat 20% higher ws damage.

A little off topic... but wth....

Yeah...I personally own a Naglering, Martial Sword, Subduer, and Crude Sword(nice Blunt GS for SE limbus and Jailer of Temperance or other stuff that may be immune to slashing)...but I never got an Algol so I can't really comment about that one from first hand experience. Subduer would be good maybe if you fought a mob only with regular hits and no WSs, but then why are you using GS? because yeah... you use GS pretty much for the WS and Subduer really does not offer anything for WS.

As for Algol Vs Martial on weaker mobs, like I said I really do not own an Algol, but knowing the stats for both weapons etc...I would have to go with Martial too probably...the way I see it is, sure Algol can get a 6hit that is a little faster than Naglering's even but you're still getting one more hit with Martial on the way, AND most importantly I think that since you are fighting weaker mobs, in this case you should have no problems abusing Absorb-TP which then when you use Absorb-TP, you can get to 100% TP without the need of your regular swings, or at least won't need all your swings(this is not all the time, I know this...and Absorb-TP does have a timer...though its also worth mentioning that it is nice when you can use absorb-TP and does help a lot AND you can also reduce Absorb-TP's recast with haste since it is a spell...), thus making the difference in Algol's 6hit to Martial's 7hit not that important, then there is meditate too, and Martial will have a "consistent" 20% boost to spinning slash WS damage every WS too..which will add up as well and the more your damage comes from WS(riding Meditate timers, abusing Absorb-TP and having a 7hit with Martial) the better the TP bonus from Martial will be. It is kind of the same reason why Hagun is so great for Samurai, because it increases their WS damage by 20% and because a lot of their damage comes from WS too.

In the end, maybe Algol and Martial can come close, maybe if you get lucky and get lots of triple attacks(which I don't have first hand experience, but I don't think triple attack procs that often for algol). Also, I think it is unlikely that you will get lots of triple attacks on WS with algol, even if they proc, they could potentially miss since the acc bonus of your WS will only be on the first hit, and you don't really gear spinninslash with ACC+....so Algol's triple attack on WS is not really reliable either..

and to summary all that for Algol vs Martial 7hit... I just think Martial will just be more "Consistent" specially with its 20% boost to WS damage, making it better...but that's just my opinion.

Edit: oh! and the Martial GS, you can buy from AH too if you can find one there... best AH GS too, I'd say.

[Ezekial]

Nameless, on 02 February 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

you can't critical hit spinning slash.

What?

So why is sneak attack + spinning slash always a hell of a lot higher then not using sneak attack?

[Nattack]

you can only critical hit on spinning slash if you are using sneak attack* as well as any other Weapon skill that doesnt natively critical hit.

[Nameless]

Yea, WS that doesn't have critical base on TP description will not critical unless sneak attacked.

[Tomasello]

Nameless, on 02 February 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

Subduer is the worst of the big 4 (algol, nag, martial, subduer). The idea of GS is WS, and it does nothing to help you on the WS side since you can't critical hit spinning slash.

Martial Sword
[Main] All Races
DPS: 10.27 DMG:76 Delay:444 TP Bonus
LV 72 WAR PLD DRK

Subduer
[Main] All Races
DPS: 11.48 DMG:85 Delay:444 Critical hit rate +6%
LV 72 WAR PLD DRK



So how much of that WS 20% dmg is off set by the 85 DMG on WS calc vs 76???

Or the melee dmg you completely choose to write-off on those extra criticals or the much higher overall DPS when you melee.

I'm not saying your wrong or trying to be a contrarian but to say 3.0/2.5 = 20% WS boost over other great swords without even considering the base dmg or completely disregarding melee DoT makes no sense at all.



EDIT: I ran some quick preliminary calculations on Subduar vs Martial. Marital was approx a 12-14% boost (depending on gear and mob) over Subduer. That being said Subduer, all things being equal, equates to a 12% in melee damage (+ 6% more crits) boost in DPS over Martial. Your overall dmg in a set time frame is going to come more from your melee than your WS.

Unless you have some math to the contrary, to me it looks like Subduer > Martial.

[Nameless]

nvm, let me recalculate.

Actually you are right on. Subduer does beat Martial slightly, about 1.5% in overall damage regardless. Very good observation. I didn't even bother comparing the two because owning an Algol for the longest time, I had compare Algol vs Subduer vs Naglering. And Algol beats Subduer and Naglering on easier stuff, and Naglering beats Algol and Subduer on hard stuff due to the accuracy and attack. I keep having this image in my head that Martial is better than Algol, and thus didn't even give Subduer a chance. But you are right, Subduer holds slight edge while algol smokes both on easier stuff without even counting the fire damage, which is substantial if you have actually used it before.

My apology to the community on giving the wrong information.

In addition, Naglering beats Algol on not high lvl mobs, but high defense mobs. At this point, we know that the mobs lvl doesn't always coincide with its defense, but as long as Naglering can get full use of its +17 attack, it will beat Algol. Against Kirin, Naglering beats Algol by about 2%, assuming Kirin is lvl 92 400 def 400 evasion 120 vit and 120 agi. Almost anything below that, Algol beats Nag. Algol does lose out on some accuracy, but since it is slightly faster than Nag, it makes up for it in speed. In the end, Naglering for only high defense mobs, I say around 400 is considered semi high. Lvl of the mob does not affect the result.

Time to bring out my Algol from storage again....

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 03 February 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

nvm, let me recalculate.

Actually you are right on. Subduer does beat Martial slightly, about 1.5% in overall damage regardless.

Ok, but this "1.5%" (which you really showed no math for, not saying its wrong but still...) ..is this counting meditate?, WS spam?, the randomness of regular hits?, but most importantly... is this counting Absorb-TP?(which you can easily have with a 44sec recast timer with 27% haste) which also you should have no problem at all landing on most mobs and you should be using it if you know what you're doing....its an awesome spell...

I don't know, if you come up with such a small percent difference between the 2 weapons just by counting melee DoT from the 6 hits after WS, WS damage and weapon stats to come up with this "static" 1.5% difference... and then also not taking into account meditate and Absorb-TP, which should put damage more towards WS.....

I'm not trying to be stubborn with this Martial 7hit idea either...hey I do own a subduer and a Naglering too(not to mention I do use my Scythe too but this thread isn't about scythes...)... but I think there are other factors to consider and it seems to me like you two did not take into account but whatever lol...

[Nameless]

I just put it in my damage calculator, which has all the most current theory on game mechanic, which does take into account meditate and alot of other stuff but not absorb-tp. Base on how small the difference is, it wouldn't surprise me to see a tie or the opposite result. But the fact that Algol beats Subduer pretty convincingly makes it not matter. This also doesn't count the fact that you can augment Martial Sword so yes, in the end Subduer and Martial are about even but both lose to Algol.

[Tomasello]

Nameless, on 04 February 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

Base on how small the difference is, it wouldn't surprise me to see a tie or the opposite result.

THIS EXACTLY!

ffxi is NOTORIOUS for "side-grades".....

It might look, based on stats, like one holds the advantage over another but you'd be surprised how many end up being virtually identical in dmg output.

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 04 February 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

This also doesn't count the fact that you can augment Martial Sword so yes, in the end Subduer and Martial are about even but both lose to Algol.

I'm sorry but I have to ask again, this is still without counting Absorb-TP ??

When you cast Absorb-TP and get good TP returns(which you should on weaker mobs if you time it right...), you are then most of the time getting to 100% TP without the need of some of your melee swings, so that is less melee DoT and more WS frequency etc....because Absorb-TP will increase your WS frequency, and then we know that WS damage with the TP bonus is Martial's strong point( I will not take into account that you can augment martial because getting good augments is incredibly hard... ).

I just feel that if you were to account for Absorb-TP somehow, it could really screw up your numbers/calculations some more......

In the end, I can agree that a lot in this game is situational and that it is full of "side-grades" ... this is true, but it should not be right to completely ignore other factors, specially one as important for DRK, like Absorb-TP.

Edit: Also, I guess ultimately... I just think that Martial sword is a GS that has always been either very underestimated or overlooked by many people, and in fact, "at the very least", it is really up there among one of the best Greatswords.

This post has been edited by Jazz: 04 February 2010 - 09:22 PM

[Nameless]

It is hard to account for absorb tp since you will be losing out on regular swing. And I still think it is very unreliable to count on against harder mobs. On easy mob where you can always absorb for high tp, you should be using scythe. And with /sam, the recast timer isn't too low that you can spam it every sec, and there is also risk involve in absorb for very little tp since /sam casting time is long as well and you can get unlucky. Those are human error that will be hard to account for in such detailed calculation.

[Jazz]

Nameless, on 04 February 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

It is hard to account for absorb tp since you will be losing out on regular swing. And I still think it is very unreliable to count on against harder mobs. On easy mob where you can always absorb for high tp, you should be using scythe. And with /sam, the recast timer isn't too low that you can spam it every sec, and there is also risk involve in absorb for very little tp since /sam casting time is long as well and you can get unlucky. Those are human error that will be hard to account for in such detailed calculation.

Why are you casting Absorb-TP while having Hasso or Seigan up?

Hint: if you use windower(and I know you do), you should have a "cancel Hasso" and "cancel Seigan" key bind...so what you do is quickly cancel Hasso or Seigan, whichever one you had up, then cast Absorb-TP, and then re-apply Hasso etc... Hasso's and Seigan's timers are really not long either, they kinda work well with Absorb TP, maybe "sometimes" you will find yourself casting while having seigan up, but really the only time I have to do this is if I'm getting beat up and the spell I will choose to cast in this case is drain and/or drain 2.

Also, since Absorb-TP is a spell, you can reduce its recast timer. My default Absorb-TP set has some dark skill+ gear and some magic acc+ gear, (also max dark magic merits) as well has a mix of some fastcast and some haste+, so with that, it is more than enough to land it with good returns as well as also reduce my recast timer for it. To be more exact, my Absorb-TP recast is reduced from 60sec to 49.2sec (60 X 0.18 from haste and fastcast), then add that gear + just 15% haste from mage spell, and Absorb-TP's recast goes from a 60sec recast timer to a 40.2sec recast timer(60 X 0.33 from gear + mage spell), which is pretty nice. I also macro in on my "precast" set (in my drk spellcast xml) all the fascast gear that DRK can wear, +5 from my nuevo coselete, +4 from my homam legs, and +2 from my loquacious earring = +11% FastCast, and then I change on "midcast" to my other Absorb-TP set to finish casting. It may not be game breaking but its nice, this game is all about seconds sometimes after all. Ummm...and I also have another Absorb-TP set which I change with a "gear cycle macro" in game for that spell, that basically just uses a "dummy spell" to execute a rule to change the gear that is in my spellcast's "midcast" and changes it to Max Darkmagic skill + Max Magic accuracy for stuff that may resist more.

Anyway, if you don't use windower, you can still just "click off" Seigan or Hasso...you should not be casting Absorb-TP while having Hasso or Seigan up because not only will it increase Absorb-TP's recast but it will also cast it more slowly...which will probably actually hurt your performance in the long run. Furthermore, Absorb-TP is not a perfect spell, and there is human error and it would be hard to account for this, I really actually agree with you on this, but still it is an awesome spell if you know how to use it and time it properly etc, and you should still just not completely ignore it, that's all...

[Nameless]

I didn't say I completely ignore it. I just said, it would be extremely hard to account for it since you can't predict how much tp you will be gaining, and how much more tp you will need after your cast. The calculator I made is very specific in the sense that there isn't much of a random factor.

I use spellcast so all you described above I do other than cancelling hasso and seigan during cast. I use cancel plug in for shadows for my pld, and I know you can do that for hasso and seigan as well. I choose not to because if I am in a serious fight, I am going to full time hasso, and if I play the way you described, I will be casting absorb tp every 40 secs. Hasso recast time is 1 min, which is already short but I am not giving that 20 sec of hasso up just so I can cast more absorb tp. I am about as hardcore of a DRK as there can be so you can count on me having all the fastcast gears when start casting and all the darkmagic skill and haste gears in the end of the cast (name a few, ACP body with fastcast, loq earring, homam legs for fastcast. Abyss cape, insect and omega ring, dark torque, dark earring, demon's harness etc I even have obi when it is dark weather and day). I have 325 or 330 darkmagic skill I forgot and 12 macc when I cast so like you said, unless you are casting on real hard stuff, you won't get resisted. However, what you absorb is going to be depended on how much tp the mob has, remember they made that change that you can't absorb tp more than the mob has currently. I have used absorb tp too much to know that you can get very unlucky with it, so how do you account for that. Also, with the rate you are casting, you are going to need refresh on you as well unless you tp in Ares body, which is a no no. All that things you need to consider, which I didn't say ignore it, but will be very hard to put on paper for projection.

What you are describing is playing style. Alot of ppl believe it is a what not to do when you cast during melee. So it is a double edged sword honestly. Martial is 1.5% under to begin with, so it does need absorb tp to work in its favor to get even or pass it, which I also didn't say it was impossible. It is just that playing style aside, that's what the two compares. Heck I have even outparsed an Apoc with Algol before, doesn't mean Algol is better.

Edit: Also, I did have cancel plugin for absorb tp and dreadspike before. I took it off after getting hate too much and seigan 3rd eye and then cast absorb tp and it takes away my seigan and i get killed after. I know the simple solution is that you don't cast when you are tanking. But I also like to be able to cast whenever I want without thinking that oh crap, it is going to take away my seigan and I am gonna get hit even more after I absorb for 100tp and WS right away. 1 min is almost a long time in fights, just saying that I did have that but it doesn't fit into my playing style.

This post has been edited by Nameless: 05 February 2010 - 10:13 AM

[Jazz]

It IS "playstyle" and I believe it IS "situational" like many other things in this game....

However, I never said that I was "always" casting absorb-TP every 40secs; however, you cannot deny that a 40sec recast can be nice "sometimes." It depends on what I'm fighting and, believe me, often times you can predict if the mob you're fighting has or not TP. For one, most of the time it is not a good idea to cast it at the start of the fight when you know the mob doesn't have TP, then you have ask yourself how many people are hitting the mob?, has the mob used a TP move yet? yes? it just used a TP move, then its probably not a good idea to cast absorb-TP at this time, it has passed some time and it has not used a TP move yet? it probably is a good time to cast Absorb-TP now then and get good returns making it worth it etc etc....those are just a few things to look for and part of what I described earlier as knowing how "to time it properly."

I do know that they changed it so that you can't absorb more than what the mob has, the darkmagic skill and merits + magic acc is just there to make sure the spell actually lands without getting resisted. (Just for the record I do have 327 Dark magic skill too, and thats not counting magic acc from nuevo coselete, Omega's ring, ammo piece etc...though like I said earlier, I swap some of those pieces for Fastcast and Haste on my default Absorb-TP set, to reduce its recast, since I have more than enough to land it on merit level mobs(although it is nice on mamools if you know what you're doing too...) and below, and for higher mobs I do use a max skill + max magicAcc Absorb-TP set, and I also have the +11% Fastcast on "precast" so my spell has a 1.78 secs. "casting time" too.......but yeah, on HNMs it is then when you really can't relay on Absorb-TP, it only really lands there with Dark Seal, but if I'm Zerging with my Kclub, I tend reserve Darkseal for Drain 2 before engaging...)

Also, like I said, its not like I'm "always" casting when its up, because if its up but the mob just used a TP move, or I just started fighting another mob, I will not cast it and almost waste a swing for 4 TP absorb-TP return...its common sense...you know, actually many times, I don't even cancel Hasso until its its recast has reached zero in my recast box on screen(using recast plugin) I do like to full time Hasso sometimes(if the situation allows) too or have Seigan ready too.

Let me ask this... even if you were to full time hasso or wanted to have Seigan recast ready in case you needed to put it up(also windower key binds for Seigan and third eye are awesome for putting Seigan and/or third eye back up very fast!), would you not agree that it is still better to, in that case, wait till either Hasso's or Seigan's recast, whichever one you had up, to reach zero, then cancel it or click it off, cast Absorb-TP(you have to be able to judge if it is a good time to cast it at that time, predict if the mob has TP, if you think it doesn't have or it has very little then you don't cast it, it's that simple, oh! and you should try to predict this "BEFORE" cancelling your hasso or seigan too, really it should not be that hard...), and then re-apply Hasso or Seigan... isn't that better than to not cast Absorb-TP at all? OR specially is that not better than to cast Absorb-TP while having hasso or Seigan up? If you cast it while having Hasso or Seigan up, I believe that is when Absorb-TP hurts you the most, because again, not only will it increase your recast to 1minute and 30secs. but it will also cast Absorb-TP very slowly, making it not worth it, in my opinion.

I never cast Absorb-TP while having Hasso or Seigan up, it IS "playstyle" but it hurts you more if you do that...again, for situations that you may want to almost "full time hasso" or have Seigan ready, you could always then just limit youself to cancelling or clicking off hasso or seigan and casting Absorb-TP, when hasso's or seigan's recast has reached zero, so that you can just re-apply immediately after casting. It is very situational, but good timing and specially good judgment can make Absorb-TP pretty good.

Just as side note: I love this spell in Dynamis where you have lots of people hitting the mob.(regardless of whether I'm using my scythe or my GS, though for northlands, specially when I have no buffs, I do tend to use my GS there.)

Anyway... to each his own like they say...

[Nameless]

You can always get around stuff, like you have said, to wait til the recast are 0 then to cast. It is obvious, and there are many way to do many stuff, but how practical are most of them. My idea is never against casting absorb tp, if you can time it well like you have said, which I think the majority of the DRKs know how to time it, you can up Martial sword's damage. But my question is, by how much? is it worth all that trouble just to beat Subduer? and if you really want to put it on paper, how are you going to calculate? You seem to have problem with me not counting absorb tp but how do you think I should count it? Assuming one cast every min? and assume how much tp absorb? I mean I am not going to put stuff that are hard to predict in there.

I don't want to say this, but do not assume that we are noob drks. It is very obvious that ppl know how to use absorb tp. It is good to cast in place like dynamis or einherjar where the mob will be gaining tp, no brainer. It is not good to cast at the start of the fight or right after the mob uses tp move, also no brainer. To put it in perspective, only cast when you think mob has tp and is about to do tp move but not before you cast. I can get it right the majority of the time so can the others, it is not a special talent, you learn that by playing drk, and obviously casting without hasso or seigan will increase my timing cuz I can't count how many time the mob uses tp move during my cast that I know if I didn't have hasso or seigan on that I would have finished casting before it does tp move. It happens, and it can also happen when you don't have hasso or seigan on regardless how well you time it. The random factor is what I have problem with, you can't predict it. How are you going to split the success rate? 80% to absorb 50 tp? 10% to absorb 90 tp? 10% to absorb 10tp? that's what I mean by playing style. It differs from player to player, some don't even cast during high haste situation where you will be better off just swinging so how do you account for that?

I just want to be clear that no one is disputing you on the usefulness of absorb tp, each person are in title to their opinion, and I for one pro it like you do. 40 sec recast and standard casting time is great, heck, even if it is /sam and you take longer to cast and longer recast, it is still great. But is 40 sec recast time and standard non hasso casting time going to make me use it more? No, at least for me, which is why i stopped bothering with cancelling cuz I found that either way I cast at the same rate. That's not the point however, the point is I am not sure how you are going to factor in all that variables and say ok, martial + good use of absorb tp = 2% better or even 10% better than subduer? I even said it that with good use of absorb tp, martial should tie it or even pass it. So you are unhappy that I didn't bring out a %? I don't understand what you are trying to get at. You want me to account for it but how? Subduer or algol users can both use absorb tp, but yes, it is going to give martial the biggest advantage but again, how do you calculate, and how do you calculate missing souleater swing when you cast. Too many things if you want to account for playing style. If you think you are prolific in casting absorb tp, go with martial sword, it is that simple.

Edit: also, all that recasting hasso or seigan after a cast in the end will be just as much as the extra time that you spend on casting with hasso or seigan (the actual JA activation time), so in the end, you are talking about just the recasting time, which as I said, doesn't change how frequent I cast absorb tp. I never cast it whenever the timer is down to 0, and like you said you don't either.

This post has been edited by Nameless: 05 February 2010 - 02:09 PM