[Nikashi]

Shoot me if something's already been posted on this (searched around for a few minutes, but didn't find anything), but I just recently got Retaliators for my MNK. I'm wondering if I should put the effort into getting Birdbanes as well. My MNK is 51 at the moment, so it's getting close to Colibri levels. I dunno if the added damage from the piercing bonus will outdo my Retaliators. I'm kinda leaning towards Retaliators 'cause of their higher damage rating, but I dunno if +5 is enough to overcome the piercing bonus from Birdbanes...

[pathwriter]

I think that Birdbanes would be marginally better in the long run, but I personally very much enjoyed the added survivability of +5 Counter. The difference is not really enough to justify spending much time getting Birdbanes in that you should focus more on leveling past the issue altogether.

[TresDuendes]

Birdbrains nearly beat Destroyers at 75 against piercing targets. I'm fairly sure they outright beat CCs/Retaliators by quite a bit.

[Nikashi]

TresDuendes, on 11 February 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

Birdbrains nearly beat Destroyers at 75 against piercing targets. I'm fairly sure they outright beat CCs/Retaliators by quite a bit.

I thought I read somewhere that Retaliators were on par with Destroyers. Whether they were better or not, I'm not sure, but if they truly are very close to Destroyers, would that make them roughly the same as Birdbanes?

[azagarth1]

They are not even going to touch destroyers..... who ever told you that was misleading you.

wags if you attack AND acc is horrible (not realistic) will be on paar with destroyers, and wags destroy CCs too.....

Don't argue the +5 counter either as a turning point since you should /nin and not get hit anyhow at 75. They are good h2h but only until you get birdbanes.

[pathwriter]

azagarth1, on 11 February 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

Don't argue the +5 counter either as a turning point since you should /nin and not get hit anyhow at 75. They are good h2h but only until you get birdbanes.

You understand that he's in the process of leveling, right, numbnuts?

[TresDuendes]

You understand that birdbrains are far ahead of retaliators regardless of the counter, right?

[Carynaira]

Nikashi, on 11 February 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

My MNK is 51 at the moment

azagarth1, on 11 February 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

you should /nin and not get hit anyhow at 75

Where is my facepalm.gif?

[shadowdereapz]

Lawl.
Birdbanes on Peircing targets. CC's on non peircing.

Birdbanes > CC on anything that is flying.

[azagarth1]

Path read the 2 people above my other post and then think before you post since mine comes AFTER theirs and might be related just somehow; in some crazy world forum post may build on each other.. idk... just maybe....

This post has been edited by azagarth1: 11 February 2010 - 09:31 PM

[pathwriter]

Ok, then building on your nonsense, you don't need to /Ninja at 75. I haven't used my Retaliators in a very long time and I certainly don't recommend it, but people seem to be getting stressed about the wrong thing. The damage advantage on Birdbanes isn't really that impressive and the difference is pretty nominal through the 50s and 60s. Why? Because pretty much all one-handed damage is deeply depending on the backline and the level of mobs you're fighting. If you're in a typical 'tard party that might get a single Attack buff or in one of the many grossly overhunting parties, 25% extra damage on your normal swings that are already doing pitiful damage and tickling a Colibri to death isn't as phenomenal as people imagine. Added Counter when you inevitably draw aggro doesn't hurt. But, in the long run, who cares about min-maxing at level 57? Get to a level that matters, then worry about nominal differences in a game that centers around nominal differences.

[Aliadim]

I didn't even bother with getting Retaliator's back when I leveled MNK. I wouldn't even consider this debate. Both pieces are borderline luxury and the time spent to even get them would be time spent that you could use Destroyers. That's me, though, and I never really nit-picked during the leveling phase.

[Nikashi]

I got super lucky with my Retaliators. Was helping a friend camp Eastern Shadow, and figured I'd pop Western while we were up there. Went 1/1 on the drop, so I didn't really spend much time getting them. >.>

[Aliadim]

Nikashi, on 11 February 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

I got super lucky with my Retaliators. Was helping a friend camp Eastern Shadow, and figured I'd pop Western while we were up there. Went 1/1 on the drop, so I didn't really spend much time getting them. >.>

Then just use those. Fuck birdbanes.

[Jeryhn]

pathwriter, on 11 February 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

If you're in a typical 'tard party that might get a single Attack buff or in one of the many grossly overhunting parties, 25% extra damage on your normal swings that are already doing pitiful damage and tickling a Colibri to death isn't as phenomenal as people imagine.

Conversely, if you're in an amazing party leveling up, let's say with two bards, wouldn't Birdbanes outshine anything else at piercing camps considering the majority of things people commonly camp post-54 are weak to piercing? Let's forget the accuracy vs. birds for the moment. We all know a good MNK is going to inevitably draw aggro anyway, the question becomes whether or not its better to deal +25% damage in your TP phase or have a 5% better chance at countering when you're likely gonna be /NIN in a good party that pulls chains and bounces hate around.

My vote would go to Birdbanes. While bad parties do exist, that's not reason enough to not choose a legitimately good piece of gear. I don't think its a matter of mix-maxing at 54, but rather doing it from 54 all the way up to Destroyers.

[shadowdereapz]

Birdbanes would win VS birds hands down.
Fighting non-piercing damage mobs they are about equal to CC's IMO, both choices are good tho.
Both are legitimate choices to use till Hades sainti/Destroyers.

As far as bad partys go, I usually leave those within ~10 to 30 mins.

[pathwriter]

Jeryhn, on 11 February 2010 - 11:48 PM, said:

when you're likely gonna be /NIN in a good party that pulls chains and bounces hate around.

It is not a good party if you are /Ninja before 74. It's a standard party if you're /Ninja after 74.

And apparently you missed the "Who gives a fuck, you're in the leveling phase" part. I went something like 0/10 on Birdbanes before closing my account for unrelated reasons, I have friends who are pushing 40 attempts without them. If you have Retaliators, those are more than sufficient to carry you to 75 (or, rather, 72 when you should swap to Wagh Baghnakhs at bare minimum).

Seriously, hands up, who among us has had a Monk under level 70 in the past 6 months? I know I certainly haven't. Meta-game wank about "the best" for level 62 is tiresome. I did level Ninja a few months ago and I was obsessive about having "the best" katana I could actually locate. That's not to say I had the best, but several AH options were simply too hard to find. In the long run, the difference was totally nominal. If you're in amazing parties while leveling up, guess what: you're going to level up fast. Walking in with Retaliators is plenty good enough not to gamble for days with another one of SE's NMs just for a leveling party.

[TresDuendes]

You should have Birdbanes available to you at 75, so saying that they're a waste of time for leveling is false. Also, arguing that they don't matter because "you need good support to do damage" is pretty weak. MNK is a strong DD for XP regardless of buffs, and adding more will increase its damage (duh). Btw, if you're over hunting, both weapons are gonna get hit with damage penalties but Birdbanes will still do more damage.

edit: i cant grammar

This post has been edited by TresDuendes: 12 February 2010 - 10:31 AM

[Jeryhn]

pathwriter, on 12 February 2010 - 08:01 AM, said:

It is not a good party if you are /Ninja before 74. It's a standard party if you're /Ninja after 74.

Are you suggesting that burn-style parties cannot exist and be highly successful before merit levels?
I mean WARs and SAMs making good use of polearms and Penta Thrust, dual Bards, the works. I just finished taking WHM to 75 through a mix of these parties and horrible level syncs, and the burn style parties always ended up having the highest-return EXP per hour while not being a massive drain on my MP. As such, it equates to me that those parties were good parties despite the use of NIN subs and lack of Berserk or whatever.

pathwriter, on 12 February 2010 - 08:01 AM, said:

And apparently you missed the "Who gives a fuck, you're in the leveling phase" part. I went something like 0/10 on Birdbanes before closing my account for unrelated reasons, I have friends who are pushing 40 attempts without them. If you have Retaliators, those are more than sufficient to carry you to 75 (or, rather, 72 when you should swap to Wagh Baghnakhs at bare minimum).

We do know that Retaliators can carry a Monk to Destroyers just fine, the point of the thread is to determine whether or not they are the best. Your notion of "who gives a fuck, you're still leveling up" is flawed. Are you also suggesting that it would be OK for a Monk to ride on STR rings, full artifact armor and a fulltime life belt on the path to 75?

Also I'll say from my own personal experience, it's easier to get Birdbanes than Retaliators. According to Wiki, both weapons have similar droprates from their respective NMs, the difference is one pops every 1.5-2 hours and the other, 8-24 hours.
Personally I went 0/3 on Birdbanes until I came back with a THF sub, got the next claim and got them to drop.

pathwriter, on 12 February 2010 - 08:01 AM, said:

Seriously, hands up, who among us has had a Monk under level 70 in the past 6 months? I know I certainly haven't. Meta-game wank about "the best" for level 62 is tiresome. I did level Ninja a few months ago and I was obsessive about having "the best" katana I could actually locate. That's not to say I had the best, but several AH options were simply too hard to find. In the long run, the difference was totally nominal.

You would have a legitimate point assuming the difference was actually nominal.
If a flat +25% damage is enough for SAMs to ditch their Haguns in merits in favor of a piercing bonus, it seems nothing but productive to replace a Monk's blunt DoT with piercing DoT just to make getting the EXP that much easier.

pathwriter, on 12 February 2010 - 08:01 AM, said:

If you're in amazing parties while leveling up, guess what: you're going to level up fast. Walking in with Retaliators is plenty good enough not to gamble for days with another one of SE's NMs just for a leveling party.

Now see, I agree with you. If you already have Retaliators, great, that's awesome.
But I'm sure you'll also agree that Monk isn't exactly the first choice when picking DDs for levelup parties due to their lack of piercing options.
Birdbanes, if nothing else, levels the playing field a bit, and mentioning that you have them in a search comment just might get you into a party sooning than continuing to seek in Whitegate.

[pathwriter]

TresDuendes, on 12 February 2010 - 10:30 AM, said:

You should have Birdbanes available to you at 75, so saying that they're a waste of time for leveling is false.

"Should have"? For what, a single Jailer fight or, if you're still masochistic enough, one zone of Limbus? That's on the margins of marginal. They're a toy, but they're not remotely close to a recommended possession.

And, Jerhyn, you're playing the wrong game when you're saying "Is it ok to rock full AF to 75." Retaliators are damned powerful. My entire argument has been, "Don't waste your fucking time when you already have something good."

Also, 'tardmuiffin, the reason that Samurai ditch their Hagun on Greater Colibri is PENTA THRUST. Birdbanes don't alter the blunt nature of Raging Fists or Howling Fist. With how dependent your performance is upon your backline and the level difference between you and your target, the gain from Birdbanes can be quite nominal. If you want to camp them and spend several days of your time trying to get them, go for it, but if you're already rocking Retaliators, my assessment stands: there are more productive things to do with your time.

As for listing that you have Birdbanes in your search comment, it must be interesting to play on a server where random pickup groups actually read seacoms. I stopped bothering to even have a seacom in English and I tend to look askance upon most Japanese parties these days.

But, yeah, I think it is rather obvious that Birdbanes are your best damage option while fighting Lesser and regular Colibri. Were you missing that point somehow? The difference between "the best" and "the second best" is not enough to lose sleep over, not when you're slogging through the 50s and 60s.