[Griss]

ZahlSechs, on 18 March 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

Sometimes I wonder if you've really been playing this game or just pretending to
Anyway, it's not just a matter of skill level (and PUP could already reach 250+ with some tricks). They would have to update trial weapons as well. Also, some WS (like Asuran Fists) are like a "signature" for their jobs, I doubt any other job will get those WSs.
In the end though, why would we even want Asuran Fists? Stringing Pummel >>>> Asuran Fists.

yea this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the topic.

[Auraeon]

ZahlSechs, on 18 March 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

Sometimes I wonder if you've really been playing this game or just pretending to
Anyway, it's not just a matter of skill level (and PUP could already reach 250+ with some tricks). They would have to update trial weapons as well. Also, some WS (like Asuran Fists) are like a "signature" for their jobs, I doubt any other job will get those WSs.
In the end though, why would we even want Asuran Fists? Stringing Pummel >>>> Asuran Fists.

No where did I imply anything was better than Stringing Pummel. Even MNKs cry about not getting Stringing Pummel. But now that jobs will have the BASE SKILL requirement (meaning not counting merits or gear), the only way to still keep these weapon skills from other jobs is by finally saying it comes solely down to being job specific weapon skills. Which it has never been able to do before because base skill has never been high enough to unlock a WSNM that you couldn't already get on any given job. This is the first time base skill is being increased for all jobs past the level 75 cap. Even jobs like WAR might have 250 H2H skill at level 99 (too lazy to do actually do the math right now, but you get the idea.) So when it comes down to it, they're going to have to either say WSNM quests are job specific (first time they've had to say this was the only requirement that really mattered) or change the WSNM weapon to include other jobs.

I don't see the latter ever happening, and I strongly believe WSNMs are already job specific, we have just had little proof of it yet. But it will be interesting to see what happens to them regardless. Not that it matters since there are obviously lots of new (much more powerful) weapon skills coming out for the next 24 levels on each of the 20 jobs.

[TresDuendes]

Rhayve, on 17 March 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

PUP generally cannot wear any kind of Cesti-type of weapons, so no, we will never get access to Asuran Fists, most likely. Also, why would we even want that WS other than for looks? If you stack enough mods, Howling Fist already outperforms Asuran Fists on anything that doesn't have craptastic defense and we have Stringing Pummel, which is far superior to both Weapon skills.

you're doing it wrong then

edit: yea fuck you pup for having the best ws in the game
inb4 pup nerf

This post has been edited by TresDuendes: 18 March 2010 - 07:32 PM

[Yhelothur]

ZahlSechs, on 18 March 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

In the end though, why would we even want Asuran Fists? Stringing Pummel >>>> Asuran Fists.

This exactly... What in the world would compel you to want that WS when you have Stringing Pummel?

Hell, I want pummel. I'd play monk more, that's for sure. lol

[TresDuendes]

Jees can't keep it to the MNK forums can you?

[Rhayve]

TresDuendes, on 18 March 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

you're doing it wrong then

edit: yea fuck you pup for having the best ws in the game
inb4 pup nerf

Or you're just not doing it right with Howling Fist. I haven't leveled Monk, but we've parsed about 3 of my Monk friends who've experimented with gearing for AF as well as for HF in meripos (Birds, Mamools) and usually HF is more consistent/deals higher overall damage.

If I recall correctly, their WS sets were something like this (with some variations depending on the player and whether Focus is up or not)

HF:
Destroyers | xxx | xxx | Tiphia Sting/Black Tathlum/Astrolabe (not sure about these)
Genbu's Kabuto | Thunder Gorget | Triumph earrings/Cassie Earring (not sure about these, either)
Kirin's Osode | Pallas's / Alkyoneus's bracelets | Rajas & Flame or Triumph
Forager's mantle | Warwolf belt | Shura haidate | Marine M Boots, Denali gamashes or Rutter sabatons

AF:
Destroyers | xxx | xxx | Tiphia or Black tathlum
Hissho hachimaki | Soil/Flame Gorget | Attack earrings
Shura togi (+1) | Okotes | Kusha's&Lava's or Accuracy rings
Forager's mantle | Virtuoso belt or Black belt | Shura haidate | Denali gamashes or Rutters depending on Accuracy, I think

So yeah, while there's no Usukane or the likes, I think these builds are still quite solid. And with these builds we've parsed both WSs against each other.

This is the data of the weakest of the three monks, gear and merits-wise (on Birds), he does have capped HTH merits, however:

Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Asuran Fists 6281 6.70 % 10/0 100.00 % 501/884 628.10
Howling Fist 77707 82.91 % 115/0 100.00 % 142/1084 675.71

Trying to find some better parse data atm, but since I've only recently begun using Kparser instead of DirectParse, I'll have to ask one of my Monk friends to send me their Kparser data first.

This post has been edited by Rhayve: 19 March 2010 - 06:14 AM

[TresDuendes]

really low sample size, and their ws average sucks

[Rhayve]

Rhayve, on 19 March 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

This is the data of the weakest of the three monks, gear and merits-wise (on Birds), he does have capped HTH merits, however:

Trying to find some better parse data atm, but since I've only recently begun using Kparser instead of DirectParse, I'll have to ask one of my Monk friends to send me their Kparser data first.

Anyhow, since it was on Birds, the Monk was using Sushi, as even with High end-gear a Monk doesn't cap Acc on birds (without Focus, that is), and the Bard was singing dual Marches at the time, so there was no Attack boost from Minuet. This may be disadvantegous for AF, but meh, higher DoT thanks to more Haste. With more Attack, AF may at some point deal more damage, but since there's a pretty high chance that some hits will miss, HF is still more consistent overall.
Out of curiousity, however, may I ask what your AF averages are, buffed & unbuffed (Minuet, Chaos Roll etc.)?

Also, I'm having difficulties reaching my Monk friend at the moment, so it may take a few days to get the parse data.

This post has been edited by Rhayve: 19 March 2010 - 02:22 PM

[Yhelothur]

That's terrible data. Don't use a shit-tastic monk as your baseline for making judgment on WS choice. On those birds it's not that hard to break 1k with Asuran assuming proper WS swap and food.

[Yhelothur]

TresDuendes, on 18 March 2010 - 10:23 PM, said:

Jees can't keep it to the MNK forums can you?

Can't keep your ignorant mouth shut, can you?

[Rhayve]

Yhelothur, on 19 March 2010 - 02:05 PM, said:

That's terrible data. Don't use a shit-tastic monk as your baseline for making judgment on WS choice. On those birds it's not that hard to break 1k with Asuran assuming proper WS swap and food.

Ugh, I clearly said that it was the worst of the three Monks, the other ones have clearly better overall gear. I was never basing my argument solely on that data, it was merely the first thing I found when I looked through my parse data folder, as a sort of interlude until I had the proper data. Edit: The parse is back from when that guy just recently hit MNK75, fyi, so his gear wasn't bad, but not extraordinary.
And most importantly, I never said HF is the better WS in every situation, just in those situations where the enemy doesn't have shitty Defense.
Learn to read.

Also, barring full Usukane (and afaik not even then), Monk won't cap Accuracy on Birds without Focus or Sushi. For reference, a Monk using Destroyers, B.Tathlum, W.Turban, A. torque, Brutal, Hollow, Shura togi +1, Bandomusha, Lava's & Kusha's, C. Mantle, Black belt, Byakko's haidate and Usukane feet has about 83%~ Accuracy on Lv. 82 Birds before food. 88% with Hachiryu kote. While Focus is nice, relying on it to keep Accuracy capped is just detrimental in the long run.
So, sacrificing capped Accuracy for slightly higher per hit damage will most likely just hurt your overall DoT more, so I don't see how they're supposed to use "proper food".
Unless you never pull hate or have excess gil/inventory, Pizza is obviously the optimal choice, but when fighting Birds, it's just not viable.

Also, look at the WS set for AF I listed earlier and tell me what you would replace/improve (aside from the obvious Usukane/MKD head additions). That set is not a bad WS set, by far, and you know it.

This post has been edited by Rhayve: 19 March 2010 - 04:58 PM

[Yhelothur]

Rhayve, on 19 March 2010 - 04:36 PM, said:

Ugh, I clearly said that it was the worst of the three Monks, the other ones have clearly better overall gear. I was never basing my argument solely on that data, it was merely the first thing I found when I looked through my parse data folder, as a sort of interlude until I had the proper data. Edit: The parse is back from when that guy just recently hit MNK75, fyi, so his gear wasn't bad, but not extraordinary.
And most importantly, I never said HF is the better WS in every situation, just in those situations where the enemy doesn't have shitty Defense.
Learn to read.

Also, barring full Usukane (and afaik not even then), Monk won't cap Accuracy on Birds without Focus or Sushi. For reference, a Monk using Destroyers, B.Tathlum, W.Turban, A. torque, Brutal, Hollow, Shura togi +1, Bandomusha, Lava's & Kusha's, C. Mantle, Black belt, Byakko's haidate and Usukane feet has about 83%~ Accuracy on Lv. 82 Birds before food. 88% with Hachiryu kote. While Focus is nice, relying on it to keep Accuracy capped is just detrimental in the long run.
So, sacrificing capped Accuracy for slightly higher per hit damage will most likely just hurt your overall DoT more, so I don't see how they're supposed to use "proper food".
Unless you never pull hate or have excess gil/inventory, Pizza is obviously the optimal choice, but when fighting Birds, it's just not viable.

Also, look at the WS set for AF I listed earlier and tell me what you would replace/improve (aside from the obvious Usukane/MKD head additions). That set is not a bad WS set, by far, and you know it.

God I hate this website sometimes. Just lost a massive post.

First point: Howling fist IS better than Asuran Fists when the mob has high defense. Not the other way around. Asuran shines on those birds, and it should be averaging higher than that. Especially with the WS set listed above, unless the guy's destroyers weren't unlocked yet. That's what I'm thinking. Unless by "shitty defense" you mean high defense, which would be the wrong word to use for what you're implying, then you're wrong.

And I can read just fine, thank you. It all depends on the person conveying the initial message as to whether or not it's properly comprehensible.

Second: Monks do rely on Focus for some accuracy. That's why those of us who care about the job have a Focus up/down set that varies accuracy for when you need it and when you don't. My normal down set puts me at 83.3% accuracy on those birds, whereas my up set would bring me to 93%. However, I could always use a little more attack, so I swap out some accuracy for ATT, which brings me down to 87.8%, which is more than acceptable as a Monk. I think the whole capped accuracy stigma has done some bad things, because you're not going to cap on everything. When you can, what are you giving up to cap it? Are you giving up attack? A lot of it? Then it may not be as good of an idea as you think, and maybe you should just go with close to capped accuracy, and get more out of the landed hits, which is still a fairly high percentage. Mithkabobs or gtfo on those birds. (For monk, mind you. Not saying this is for PUP)

Thirdly, you mentioned Rutter Sabatons. Monk can't equip them. Otherwise, those WS sets are pretty good, but even my old monk before a single piece of Usukane was doing a higher average than that. I had NQ Togi, B. Kote, and pretty much the best normal gear you get for monk other than an NQ accuracy ring. As I mentioned earlier, either that newly 75 monk's destroyers weren't unlocked, or something else was amiss... Not to mention he did a whopping 10 Asurans to 115 Howlings.

So, all in all, why did you even show us that parse data again if it's so irrelevant? Not to mention that a properly geared monk should easily have a higher average with Asuran Fists than Howling Fist on Greater Colibri. Seriously.


I'd rather not take this into a rude conversation, because we don't really need to. I just don't see what the point of beginning this shitstorm was.

This post has been edited by Yhelothur: 19 March 2010 - 05:34 PM

[Rhayve]

Yhelothur, on 19 March 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

God I hate this website sometimes. Just lost a massive post.

First point: Howling fist IS better than Asuran Fists when the mob has high defense. Not the other way around. Asuran shines on those birds, and it should be averaging higher than that. Especially with the WS set listed above, unless the guy's destroyers weren't unlocked yet. That's what I'm thinking. Unless by "shitty defense" you mean high defense, which would be the wrong word to use for what you're implying, then you're wrong.

And I can read just fine, thank you. It all depends on the person conveying the initial message as to whether or not it's properly comprehensible.

Second: Monks do rely on Focus for some accuracy. That's why those of us who care about the job have a Focus up/down set that varies accuracy for when you need it and when you don't. My normal down set puts me at 83.3% accuracy on those birds, whereas my up set would bring me to 93%. However, I could always use a little more attack, so I swap out some accuracy for ATT, which brings me down to 87.8%, which is more than acceptable as a Monk. I think the whole capped accuracy stigma has done some bad things, because you're not going to cap on everything. When you can, what are you giving up to cap it? Are you giving up attack? A lot of it? Then it may not be as good of an idea as you think, and maybe you should just go with close to capped accuracy, and get more out of the landed hits, which is still a fairly high percentage. Mithkabobs or gtfo on those birds. (For monk, mind you. Not saying this is for PUP)

Thirdly, you mentioned Rutter Sabatons. Monk can't equip them. Otherwise, those WS sets are pretty good, but even my old monk before a single piece of Usukane was doing a higher average than that. I had NQ Togi, B. Kote, and pretty much the best normal gear you get for monk other than an NQ accuracy ring. As I mentioned earlier, either that newly 75 monk's destroyers weren't unlocked, or something else was amiss... Not to mention he did a whopping 10 Asurans to 115 Howlings.

So, all in all, why did you even show us that parse data again if it's so irrelevant? Not to mention that a properly geared monk should easily have a higher average with Asuran Fists than Howling Fist on Greater Colibri. Seriously.


I'd rather not take this into a rude conversation, because we don't really need to. I just don't see what the point of beginning this shitstorm was.

1) Even on many monsters with mediocre Defense, such as Colibri, I've seen HFs outshine AF according to parse data from meripos, simply because a measure of Attack was given up in favor of more Haste and since Haste has increasing returns, it's more beneficial, imho, as you can retain good WS damage while also having superior DoT due to a high attack rate. High haste + a DEX/Crit build on Monk for Colibri is really awesome.

2) The set I mentioned in my previous post would drop Hachiryu kotes for B. kotes while Focus is up. With Hachiryu, it'd be 88%, making meat viable, however, not all Monks have gear of that caliber. And seriously, Monks who use PCC/Tiphia/Okotes&N.Kotes/Fumas etc. instead may not be as top-notch, but certainly not weak/gimp either. I don't see what's wrong with them using Sushi during a Bird meripo instead to cap hit rate. Pizza still reigns supreme on anything else, anyhow.

3) As I said, I wasn't sure regarding the feet choice, and I don't have MNK leveled myself. My bad regarding the Rutters, but Denali aren't bad, either. Also, the Monk's Destroyers were unlocked, but as I said, there were no Attack buffs present because that was a parse from one of the rare solo BRD parties we've done. Usually it's BRD&COR with Dual March, Corsair's Roll and either Fighter's Roll or Rogue's Roll when a good and/or Mandau THF tags along. Fighter's Roll benefits only HF, so using that as an example would be rubbish, and I've no parse of those Monks with the Corsair's/Rogue's Roll combo.

Anyhow, I only showed that parse data because I started talking about parsing in that first post and it seemed kind of pointless mentioning parses multiple times and then not showing any kind of parse at all. Regardless, while the Monk's AF gear was supbar, so was his HF gear back then, so it's still somewhat even match. But as I said, once I can get my hands on the proper data, I will post it here.

Lastly, I was never trying to start a shitstorm, I'm just trying to advocate the usefulness of HF, but you always seems to immediately try to argue against me whenever I begin a discussion on the PUP forums, so I don't really think it's only me who's getting everyone worked up, here.

This post has been edited by Rhayve: 19 March 2010 - 06:48 PM

[Yhelothur]

Rhayve, on 19 March 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

1) Even on many monsters with mediocre Defense, such as Colibri, I've seen HFs outshine AF according to parse data from meripos, simply because a measure of Attack was given up in favor of more Haste and since Haste has increasing returns, it's more beneficial, imho, as you can retain good WS damage while also having superior DoT due to a high attack rate. High haste + a DEX/Crit build on Monk for Colibri is really awesome.

2) I don't see what's wrong with them using Sushi during a Bird meripo instead to cap hit rate. Pizza still reigns supreme on anything else, anyhow.

Lastly, I was never trying to start a shitstorm, I'm just trying to advocate the usefulness of HF, but you always seems to immediately try to argue against me whenever I begin a discussion on the PUP forums, so I don't really think it's only me who's getting everyone worked up, here.

1. It's not too hard to cap your haste in a good attack-laden build. (25% at least, not taking into account the -real- cap is 26%)

2. Gives up too much attack. Personal view, and I don't really have the brainpower for crunching the numbers to find out exactly, but unless you're working with the DEX build, I don't see sushi being too beneficial. Even then, I'm not positive it's -THAT- much better. Haven't tried it, but nor do I have the inventory room to bother. lol

My apologies if I come across like that. I'm not really worked up at all, I just have seen from my experience that Howling Fist really only pulls ahead consistently where mobs have too high of defense for Asuran to work it's magic. I've got good builds for both (Asuran build is lacking a few things, but it's still not bad), and I've only watched Asuran get trumped on things like Om'Yovra, PLD mobs in dynamis, etc etc. Not discounting HF at all, but with a good build on those merit mobs, Asuran should still win.

And not to mention that parse didn't show enough Asuran's. Not to mention the averages on both were exceptionally lower than I'd expect. Maybe I'll have to go out and parse myself one of these days to see.

[TresDuendes]

Rhayve, on 19 March 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

Anyhow, since it was on Birds, the Monk was using Sushi, as even with High end-gear a Monk doesn't cap Acc on birds (without Focus, that is), and the Bard was singing dual Marches at the time, so there was no Attack boost from Minuet. This may be disadvantegous for AF, but meh, higher DoT thanks to more Haste. With more Attack, AF may at some point deal more damage, but since there's a pretty high chance that some hits will miss, HF is still more consistent overall.
Out of curiousity, however, may I ask what your AF averages are, buffed & unbuffed (Minuet, Chaos Roll etc.)?

Also, I'm having difficulties reaching my Monk friend at the moment, so it may take a few days to get the parse data.

Skipping over all the wall of texts to respond to this.
When I'm on the ball with not WSing at low %, and only minuetx2, my asurans average roughly 850. With Chaos on top of that it'll go into the 950 average, with peaks of 1100.

[Auraeon]

*yawn* I'm bored of the Monk conversation.

Neither Howling Fist or Asuran Fists will even matter soon (already matter very little for PUP), so who cares which is stronger. NeedsmoarStringingPummel

I wonder if they will be releasing other weapon skills available from levels 76-99 to be used outside of Campaign. It'd be nice if they went job-specific from now on instead of weapon type-specific. Maybe give mages quested spells instead of weapon skills for the melee. Quested automaton weapon skill [Can I have it?]

This post has been edited by Auraeon: 19 March 2010 - 11:45 PM

[spira]

its official..

PUP h2h is now B+, not A as previously mentioned.. guess they hadnt finalized it.

changed topic to reflect official change...

but WOW at the other changes

[Griss]

its going to be really interesting to see how the maneuvers stat boosts will scale with level. Guess i will really need a decent int build now.

[Rhayve]

Griss, on 22 March 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

its going to be really interesting to see how the maneuvers stat boosts will scale with level. Guess i will really need a decent int build now.

You should already be using one anyhow, to reduce Overload rates. And lol @ B+ skill, it's appreciated but good job at disappointing the PUP playerbase like that. Probably lots of hatemail that came from the MNK community made them reconsider.

I wonder what these performance adjustments for the Attachments and frames does. That piqued my interest.

[Aleera]

256 skill is still better than 225. <3 you SE. These other changes are pretty nice as well.