[Dashiel]

Hey butterfaces o: I've been away from the game for several months and I noticed there is a lot of new weird crazy stuff I don't even understand. My equipment on PUP was pretty decent, if not above the average (not crazy best, since I don't slave myself to sea or anything, but it was pretty decent) and I was wondering what would be the up to par setup now with all these new things? I have full pahluwan, tabin bracers +1, walhra turban, mirke wardecors (r. cc and m. atk bonus), ulthalam's ring, raja's, brutal earring, ruby earring (int 1, atk 4, pet atk 4 rng atk 4), potent belt, swift belt, chilv chain, buffon's collar, waghs, bellicose and a few pantin pieces.

not the BEST setup, but its okay. It feels outdated though, so would someone be so nice to give me some advise on what to change, update, etc etc? I'm not really interested in investing myself in a LS or doing something very heavy on time anymore, so I'd like to stay away from persuing crazy items like faith torque and such.

thankies O:

This post has been edited by Dashiel: 02 March 2010 - 06:55 PM

[TresDuendes]

looks pretty average to me

[Dashiel]

TresDuendes, on 02 March 2010 - 07:18 PM, said:

looks pretty average to me

Your finger must have slipped, deleting the productive part of your post in which you explained what changes could be made O:

[Sotose]

Dashiel, on 02 March 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

Your finger must have slipped, deleting the productive part of your post in which you explained what changes could be made O:

Ignore him, he just likes to slip into every forum and make callus comments like that from time to time.

Anyway, you should start working on AF2, get some ZNM gear (specifically the Enkidu stuff), and also look into some of the newer NM's like Boompadu that drop relevant PUP gear.

[Dashiel]

Sotose, on 02 March 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

Ignore him, he just likes to slip into every forum and make callus comments like that from time to time.

Anyway, you should start working on AF2, get some ZNM gear (specifically the Enkidu stuff), and also look into some of the newer NM's like Boompadu that drop relevant PUP gear.

:D

I do have most AF2 if I recall correctly; enkidu's mitts I had heard of a while back, but I heard that now the top thing to have on hands are Shikkoku Kote?

This post has been edited by Dashiel: 02 March 2010 - 08:54 PM

[Yhelothur]

Well, with the change from C- to A h2h, I'm going to bet that Pantin hands will be the best TP piece, with Shikkoku Kote being the best for WS along with Enkidu's mitts if you're able to break a dDEX tier on the mob you're fighting. I mean hell, with A++ after merits, you're going to be able to heavily lean towards DEX gear (dependent on what PUP has available, I'm not 100% if it'd be feasible) for WS to try to force all 6 hits to crit, along with STR gear and such.

I know it's probably unlikely, but worth looking into with the availability of new gear after this series of updates.

Other than that, of course Usukane is the best TP set for PUP. That's pretty undeniable, especially with the lack of haste PUP has accessible. We'll see if a mix/match set is better when we know what's coming after these updates, but for now you should work towards some Usu.

Oh, and make my fucking Hikazu Kabuto drop already.

This post has been edited by Yhelothur: 02 March 2010 - 09:31 PM

[ZahlSechs]

Yhelothur, on 02 March 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Other than that, of course Usukane is the best TP set for PUP. That's pretty undeniable

I'm not so sure about it. Have full usu here so I'm not talking because out of envy.
Before the A- patch sure, I think Usu trumps everything else.
After the A- patch I'm starting to think the full haste setup might be better than full usu

Full haste = Walahra Turban, Goliard Saio, Pantin Dastanas, Usukane Hizayoroi, Usukane sune-ate

[Griss]

i dunno ZahlSechs i am still a bit wary of equipping what equates to the rampre harness in a melee build. at least against mobs that are evasive. A rank skill is not a free ticket to hits yea it give us some leeway to jiggle our limited gear options around but still we will have to worry about hit rate and all that jazz, but hey variety is the spice of life and all.


dashiel, pieces to consider for your to get list.

Surge subligar, Accuracy+12 Attack+6 "Slow"+8%. this weapon skill onry gem drops from boompadu. Boompadu is soloable but bring a friend or two for comfort and or lulz

Promptitude Solea, Accuracy+2 Haste+2. a workable haste peice for your feet. untill you can get either Enkidu or Usu feet (all i can say is good luck while camping hazmat its a bitch)

Virtuoso Belt, Accuracy +12 Attack +4 nice sp peice, ymwv. Belladonna is most likely the only nm your going to see competition for. well at least against people who are not pups.

finaly Spurrer beret, Accuracy +3 Haste +3% Pet: Haste +5%. Morille Mortelle is like boompadu soloable but its a good idea to take some friends down with you.

this is all that i can think of off at the moment. other then the obvious try to get a pantin cape yada yada.

This post has been edited by Griss: 03 March 2010 - 07:28 AM

[Yhelothur]

ZahlSechs, on 03 March 2010 - 05:32 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about it. Have full usu here so I'm not talking because out of envy.
Before the A- patch sure, I think Usu trumps everything else.
After the A- patch I'm starting to think the full haste setup might be better than full usu

Full haste = Walahra Turban, Goliard Saio, Pantin Dastanas, Usukane Hizayoroi, Usukane sune-ate

I doubt you'll have enough accuracy to support that on anything above T, but I'll run the math later for this.

[azagarth1]

Yhelothur, on 03 March 2010 - 11:05 AM, said:

I doubt you'll have enough accuracy to support that on anything above T, but I'll run the math later for this.

with /drg you get 367 in the avg haste build, give or take a few acc depending race. Obviously its low and pups will be forced to use sushi, but on lolibri it will overcap with crab and on mmj you would have to use bream sushi so who knows if it is worth it at mmj at least, but for birds it seems it clearly wins.

[Agena]

Gawd, why do you want to be told what to get? Just look at a wiki, and say "Gee, that would be better for," or "Wow that piece would help with." or "Omfg that sucks". It's not that hard, do research on your own gear.

[ZahlSechs]

Yhelothur, on 03 March 2010 - 11:05 AM, said:

I doubt you'll have enough accuracy to support that on anything above T, but I'll run the math later for this.

Would be VERY happy to see some maths about it! Would really apreciate if you could
Remember there is something hard to factor inside the equation: Pantin Dastanas (used in the haste set) does not only increase your damage, but your automaton's too (if you're using Valoredge), so that might a bit tricky to keep into consideration.

If your conclusion is that Usukane > Haste set even with 269 then you'll make me a happy galka. That would mean I won't have to get me a Goliard Saio! xD xD

[Yhelothur]

Well keep in mind that when I do this comparison, it'll be with the best gear I can see feasible in each. I really think the accuracy set is going to be superior, because the haste set gives up just too much accuracy. However, that's just my speculation, so I'll work it over after I get done with Salvage here, or maybe later tonight.

[Yhelothur]

Well, here we go.

These comparisons are both as /DRG, which I actually see being a lot more viable with the upgrade to A H2H, but /WAR may be likely to still pull ahead. However, the /DRG haste build brings you to capped haste (26%), where the /WAR haste build would only be 21%. Either way, these are both done as /DRG.

http://www.ffxiah.co...s.php?id=143052

This is the haste set, with the most accuracy I could manage to throw in there as well. Also throwing in something along the lines of Crab Sushi would cap you on Greater Colibri. I use those birds as an example because they're pretty much the only mob I have the values for memorized. It would actually bring you a little ways over cap, but either way. This shows what I got my numbers from:




Now, that seems pretty good. On the other hand, I was surprised by the full Usukane build. I changed out Rajas for another Sniper+1 to get the maximum amount of accuracy and see just what I could possibly get towards a meat build, and here are the results:

http://www.ffxiah.co...s.php?id=143054



From what I see, unless my numbers are incorrect, that second build (Usu) would be actually somewhat decent for a meat build. I could be wrong, but as a Monk I always tried to rely on meat until the release of pizza, and even then it's going to be meat if the mob will steal my food. Just under 90% acc as /DRG is pretty damn viable if you ask me, but I'm open to some more reliable numbers.

Since FFXIAH doesn't seem to show latent effects and hidden effects, not to mention I had to correct the numbers for the first build, the numbers on the calculator and the numbers under the item sets don't match, but I assure you, the item sets are purely to look at what gear I'm using to compare. The numbers plugged into the calculator are the real values on the gear.


Looking at these two sets, I really don't see much of a difference. One is going to have a higher accuracy rating, while the other hits harder by a long shot. I really don't know which would be more viable though, because Usukane doesn't just fall into anyone's hands. Not to mention I really am unsure of how to calculate these down to the base numbers to show which would be superior. I'd need someone like Vegetto in here to run these numbers down further.

I'm going to lean in favor of full Usukane and meat until I see some numbers showing otherwise. These are at least both here so you can take a peek at the sets side by side, and maybe you can make your own choice from there.

[azagarth1]

one thing to mention that you are not taking into consideration.

By using full usu your auto also loses out on 3% haste, not big deal but its something. Also 4% haste is a very big deal for dmg, especially with marchx2 and haste on you which now will be a lot more common as we pups take a real DD spot in a few days (as playerbase will see).

crab sushi btw is 13% acc not 11%. Which gives you 415 acc.... which means your 8 over cap, or in other words faith torque+ulthalms+usu legs which drops out 13~ acc depending your dex. But also your using wags which while great you should really have shens>hades+1=oberons+10hth when we talk about these top pup builds which will basically set you right at the 407 cap.

so it really comes down to this (tired so quick look at it)

mix set: 4%haste, 5% hit rate, and auto has 3% haste (but thats marginal)

usu- 11str (5 more from mithkabo too if thats what you use at birds), and normally 65 attack from kabob

so will 4% haste and 5% hit rate out do 16 str and 65 attack? I think its going to be dang close. But with the normal marchx2+haste+drk+cor rolls on It also helps the mix set more since the haste means more, and the attack less.

at MMJ I guess you could argue though that full usu would let you use pizza which would cap you on all but nins and thfs so your technically 55 attack bonus there from food. Id wager to say mix is best at birds, and both are probably dang equal at mmj. It really comes down to buffs. Also /drg helps the usu set more too (needs the acc more) and we still dont know if it will truly beat out /war yet. Let alone we may have to sub nin now like mnks do since we are pretty dang close to them dmg wise now. This only helps the mix set since using crab sushi you cap so easily.

I am no expert on the math though so will need a person who can break it down to exact % to come in. Either way with how close they seem to me now id go for w/e one is easier to get. And will probably do usu set myself since I am going for it anyhow and after a dick not hping at last goli body drop and me losing it i just refuse to subject myself to damn nyzule again.

edit: hmm i didnt think of it earlier but with ancient torque + shens in full usu you will cap acc at birds..... so the gap lessens really to 4% haste to basically 70 attack lol...... im kinda leaning on usu now too, but mix being a very good choice (probably close to mix mnk and usu mnk difference). Good thing im working on full usu lol! and get to play with shens at birds finally in a few days will be hella fun (im subbing war getting double minuet + drk roll and going to aim for massive SP! just for kicks)

This post has been edited by azagarth1: 04 March 2010 - 04:27 AM

[Cream Soda]

After doing some quick numbers, more data needed for full analysis

http://www.ffxiah.co...s.php?id=134710

This set on /war + crab sushi gives 405 acc, capping on birds.

http://www.ffxiah.co...s.php?id=134709

This set on /war + kabob gives
390 acc 87% hitrate (vince they have 337 btw not 339, this error was found/corrected a long time ago).

Going from 88% to 95% hitrate is 7/88 = 7.95% increase

17 vs 21% haste after buffs = 56 vs 52

4/(100-56) = 4/44 = 9.09% increase

Surprisingly enough, attack is identical on both sets.

Mix match has 11 less str, 16 less w/ kabob, kabob will give 65 attack.

16 str is 4 fstr, assuming you have 3 fstr to begin with DMG 56 vs DMG 60

56/60 = 93.33% of the damage to DoT
65 attack assuming 550 base avereage (zerk and chaos roll)
((550/293)-.35)/((615/293)-.35 = 87.3% of the damage to DoT and WS frequency.



If you would give me some theoretical WS sets for sushi and meat, i could more accurately compare as the str of usu only benefits DoT (kabob is diff story since you can't macro it out like gear you have it on full time), but if we were able to get the same increase from usu build as you could from mix/match during WS dmg as well, then it would look like

.9333 x .873 x 1.0909 x 1.0795 = .95, usu ahead by 5%, but again, it rly depends on how much meat is ahead on ws.

[ZahlSechs]

Cream Soda, on 04 March 2010 - 06:45 AM, said:

.9333 x .873 x 1.0909 x 1.0795 = .95, usu ahead by 5%, but again, it rly depends on how much meat is ahead on ws.

Thanks for data, will be waiting for more input


@Azgarth
Yes, that's what I said to Yhelotur before.
The formula for our damage is: FD = mD + aD
FD = Full Damage
mD = Master's Damage
aD = Automaton's Damage
FD is what really matters. Taking into consideration this formula, how much does losing 3% haste on aD impact on our whole damage, our FD? This has something that hasn't been considered by neither Yhelotur or Vegetto.


@Yhelotur
Yes but ~90% Acc, while very good (I remember when back in the days people used to be "happy" with just over 85% at mamools ) is not the virtual cap of 95%. The simple knowledge of this game teaches us that if there's a stat that can be better than Haste, it's gotta be Accuracy. As much as of course it depends what you have to give up to obtain that 95%, in some situations it just isn't worth because you need to renounce to too many other stats.
Your 95% acc set (haste) has less att, but 4% more haste, 3% more haste on the automaton, and ~5% more Accuracy. Are you really sure this isn't better than the Usu setup?
Also, I'd rather use Pizza for your Usu setup (getting it closer to 95%, instead of the 90ish it's sitting at in your setup which uses meat) instead of meat.
Now a thing I'm about to say will make good players like you and Vegetto want to come to my place and chop my head off with an axe, I'm aware of it, but I have to admit that I'm not really fond of using food at birds. Be it cheap kabobs or cheap crab sushi, I just don't like it. Do I do it? Sometimes it's inevitable (on my Polearm setup on SAM), but I really hate to do it. When possible, I'd rather try to stick with no food at all.
It's not just a matter of wasting money (crab sushi and kabobs are really cheap), but rather the annoyance of having to constantly track my food, the fact that I'm not gonna be able to keep it up 100% of the time, the fact that I'm gonna lose time having to use it again etc. I know it sounds stupid, but it's annoying for me, and it steals a lot from my pleasure in exping. I mean, at the end of it all this is still a Game, not a world competion, so if I'm not enjoying it, should I really do it? That's why I usually like to go at Mamools or other camps. Ok, now that I gave you people another reason to spit on me, let's go further.
I'm gonna do some tests with FFXI calculator myself, trying to use pizza in place of meat for the usu setup and see how much % acc that gives me (not like you can use Pizza at birds tho...), I'm still having problems in understanding how big of a % the Automaton does in XP pt. I guess Sharpshoot at birds does more than a Valoredge would do at mjsp?
And how big of an impact would this small 3% haste have on the overall % of damage done by the automaton? (aD)

Going without numbers, just by general impression, I have the feeling that could be summarized in the following points:
1) Haste build without food is unpracticable even at birds, not enough acc
2) Usu build w/o food could be an acceptable compromize for birds
3) Haste build at birds, with food, stands a chance over Usu with meat, if you manage to keep the food uptime close to 100%
4) In another camp, like MJSP, Haste build will probably fall behind as I'm afraid not even Sushi will give enough acc for those baddies. Usu build, with Pizza, should do better, as much as its acc rate won't be awesome (especially if you fight lots of THF and NIN mobs)

[Cream Soda]

I'll do a full comparison sometime tomorrow.

[azagarth1]

zahl just let you know, with yhels setup above and bream sushi with the haste set you get 429 acc, which will cap on ALL mmj but nins (440s) and thfs (490+). Add to fact his setup does not include shens (people like me have them, hades+1 should at least be staple for comparison or oberons with 10 hth) means you will be over cap, or very close even for nins. And if you really want to get picky breram+1 is going tp put you at 435 acc and with shens 441. Plus rajas could be traded for another 7 acc ring raing you to 445 is had to be, but also taking you from a 16 hit to 17 hit.

So what I am getting at is bream+1 will cap you at MMj on all but thf mmj which is what happens with EVERY job pretty much anyhow.

The issue I have with all this comparisons is that I think /war will still trump /drg just because zerk is so amazing for h2h, and the DA is pretty big factor of a 6 hit ws. Then add that now we will probably be /nin everywhere..... I think its more fair to do comparison w/o /drg since it really isnt going to be acceptable (if mnk isnt allowed anything but /nin especially at mmj a pup now wont either since our SP should pull hate much easier with our huge dot increase)

I look forward to the math though!

[Auraeon]

Ooooh, i didn't see this thread before.

All I have is one thing to say though;

Don't bother doing the math right now. In a few days Magian Moogle system will be released and will likely completely change the stats on all endgame equipment. Goliard, AF2, add on gear, Usukane, and even Walahra Turban will probably get additional stats like accuracy, attack, or even more Haste. We just don't know yet, so it's hard to even speculate how PUP should gear in a few days with the new A rating in skill.