[Gredival]

ryolen, on 07 July 2010 - 06:10 AM, said:

Man for lowman events dnc out dds thf hands down lol dnc/sam is incredible with saber dance havin at the very least 35% double attack, max 55% or more depending on gear.

I think I'm hangin up my thf gloves unless TH is needed. Dealin nice dmg while haste sambaing the rest of the pt and being able to step and cure on command if shit hits the fan, why wouldn't u want a dnc around. I just did lvl 3 darkness on dnc lol evisceration> shark bite > pyrric kleos > evisceration is hawt.

If by nice damage you mean you are doing 6% while I'm actually hanging/beating with the rest of the DD, sure.

You are there to be a gimpy BRD, you are not a DD.

This was my last parse with a Dancer at Ulegrande.

Gredival - Thf/Nin
Mopar - Sam/Nin
Reucribe - War/Nin
Espikes - Dnc/Sam

+ Corsair and Red Mage

Quote

Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg

Espikes 27907 6.68 % 24247 0 649 3011 0 0
Gredival 130785 31.29 % 64430 0 0 65869 0 486
Mopar 157106 37.59 % 57035 0 0 100071 0 0
Reucribe 100409 24.03 % 59947 0 0 39761 0 701

The reason for the gap... Without SA/TA and heavier WS gear, DNC was avging 500~ less per WS.

Quote

Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Espikes 3011 10.79 % 13/0 100.00 % 40/346 231.62
- Dancing Edge 1334 44.30 % 5/0 100.00 % 87/346 266.80
- Pyrrhic Kleos 1677 55.70 % 8/0 100.00 % 40/321 209.63
Gredival 65869 50.36 % 90/0 100.00 % 331/1025 731.88
- Dancing Edge 6655 10.10 % 10/0 100.00 % 373/875 665.50
- Evisceration 54696 83.04 % 75/0 100.00 % 331/1025 729.28
- Shark Bite 4518 6.86 % 5/0 100.00 % 842/1023 903.60

And for reference the only reason the WAR was so close (he was gimpy) and the reason the SAM wrecked me was that I was getting I was getting half the Haste of the WAR and SAM...

Quote

(Red Mage)
Buff Used on # Times Min Interval Max Interval Avg Interval
Haste Self 4 7:54 27:49 17:16
Espikes 10 3:49 18:21 7:31
Gredival 10 3:07 22:06 7:32
Mopar 24 0:17 14:40 4:09
Reucribe 18 2:34 18:17 5:33

This post has been edited by Gredival: 15 July 2010 - 12:35 PM

[Banter]

DNC does not deal damage.

[Gredival]

I agree. The contention I was disputing was "lowman events dnc out dds thf hands down lol"

[Banter]

Gredival, on 15 July 2010 - 08:57 PM, said:

I agree. The contention I was disputing was "lowman events dnc out dds thf hands down lol"

Well, I didn't say that, but if you want to go there. In a low man even, DNC can allow a full DD to full time their offensive sub/ability (/war, hasso) and generally not have to worry about dying. My LS semi-recently did a Dyna Valk with 3 MNK/WAR as the only major DDs, successfully killing the boss and farming a good amount. While we did have a THF there for TH4, they didn't really add much outside of that.

[ironwall]

Gredival, on 15 July 2010 - 12:13 PM, said:

If by nice damage you mean you are doing 6% while I'm actually hanging/beating with the rest of the DD, sure.

You are there to be a gimpy BRD, you are not a DD.

This was my last parse with a Dancer at Ulegrande.

Gredival - Thf/Nin
Mopar - Sam/Nin
Reucribe - War/Nin
Espikes - Dnc/Sam

+ Corsair and Red Mage




The reason for the gap... Without SA/TA and heavier WS gear, DNC was avging 500~ less per WS.




And for reference the only reason the WAR was so close (he was gimpy) and the reason the SAM wrecked me was that I was getting I was getting half the Haste of the WAR and SAM...

K now find a proper geared DNC who has a clue how to melee (i.e more than just DNC leveled for melee) and knows how to optimize his dps output and run a parse. If you reply posting "he was well geared and knew what he was doing" list party conditions and his gear; if you can remember any of it.

Any job can DD, question is: How many can DD while supporting a group?

This post has been edited by ironwall: 17 July 2010 - 03:39 AM

[Shamaya]

They did come horribly low there. Like, horribly. I don't think I've even seen the shittiest of shit thieves (and I've seen shit) come out that low. But then again, the DNC was likely using all TP on curing rather than WS.

Which counters in part what Banter was saying. If the Dnc is spending so much time keeping 3 Mnk/War alive, I'm sure it's not a stretch to say that it's cutting heavily into the Dnc's dmg output. There are some times when 4 safe DD will be better than 3 suicide DD. Also dynamis mobs aren't that hard and Thf does better damage on such mobs, so it would be useless to say Thf doesn't have output potential. The problem of course in dynamis is that it can be hard to get sneak attacks off reliably. So yes, because of SE's technical failings, thief does get the short end of the stick in a lot of situations because of this and only this. If they made SA/TA spike damage that could be dealt regardless of conditions, thief would get a ridiculous boost, especially for tanking. Fortunately thief can do other stuff in dynamis anyway. You say your thief had TH4 and not much else. Well, they were pulling too, weren't they?

Put a dancer in my party and I will absolutely molest their damage. Put two dancers in my party and one of them will be a waste of a slot. If I have a dancer in my abyssea party and another DD in my party needs to change jobs and tells me to pick Dnc or Thf, I will say Thf because it's going to outdamage the Dnc. Well, let's be real. I don't trust many thieves. Or dancers. I don't trust DD's that I don't know in general. Given that I expect him/her to bring a poorly geared Thf or Dnc to my alliance, I would probably tell them to go Dnc and swap them into the other DD PT assuming the other DD PT didn't have a Dnc already. But yeah if I'm doing Ixion. Thf or Dnc: Thf. Khimmy? Thf. SW? Thf. Faffy? Thf. Any mobs that aren't burned down by DD's accompanied by a Brd & Cor: Thf. Or another DD that isn't DNC.

[ironwall]

Well DNC is far from my favorite job, I find it's potential on anything that isn't end game, endless. For anything endgame I have my SAMURAH!

[Banter]

Shamaya, on 19 July 2010 - 11:46 PM, said:

Which counters in part what Banter was saying.

Are you slow or something?

ironwall, on 20 July 2010 - 03:00 AM, said:

Well DNC is far from my favorite job, I find it's potential on anything that isn't end game, endless. For anything endgame I have my SAMURAH!

I don't even need to ask you.

[Shamaya]

Oh no Banter, please don't be mean to me ; ; ; ;. I don't know you, man. If you weren't being sarcastic about "Dnc does not deal dmg," more power to you. But if you are going to say that with a straight face, don't overstate the job's usefulness. Haste samba can justify essentially no damage coming from the Dnc only if the DD's you're buffing are very strong (hauby+1 or BB doesn't constitute this) and have full-time double march. If you agree w/ that, then we agree that Dnc has limited application. If you were like some of the others and wanted to justify widespread application, you need to also argue for DNC's DPS capabilities.

This post has been edited by Shamaya: 20 July 2010 - 12:09 PM

[ironwall]

Why because I enjoy a job and find it useful on anything I can hit for more than 0? Do you have the job leveled?

I only level jobs I enjoy. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. You don't need to ask me anything.

[Banggugyangu]

semi-necro response, sorry for that

Banter, on 29 June 2010 - 05:57 PM, said:

they have a negative tone because i'm just tired of all the special snowflakes around here that think they're doing something special. want to be useful on a fight you need to th4 and can't melee? dual box a rdm or whm.

The person who brought up THF/COR and my original thread about it were clearly meaning for solo purposes. As I said before, there aren't MANY uses for THF/COR, but if you find a mob that doesn't run at enhanced speed, but will own your face with its melee attacks, it's definitely a reliable means of taking that mob down.

For the DNC argument, does that really have a place here? First off, the original comment was /DNC, not DNC/. Secondly, treelo was laughing at using /DNC as a damaging sub job now that it has dual wield. I can somewhat see both sides of that. /NIN will still be far better than /DNC simply because of the extra dual wield tier. On the argument, DNC can easily deal a substantial amount of damage if that is what they are focusing on. They do have quite a few abilities to up their damage potential. The best DNC will not be leagues behind the best THF, but will still be behind. I have far better gear for my DNC damage output than I do my THF, and my THF still outdamages my DNC. I use DNC for its versatility and survivability, but DNC is one of few jobs that you can play your own way and still be quite effective *given you aren't an idiot*.

[pathwriter]

Both have Dual Wield II at level 40. As a damaging support job, /Dancer is superior. For survivability, /Ninja wins, but how often is a Thief likely to grab aggro in a normal situation? Even with hate reset, mages (edit: and the support line and small rocks which may or may not float) should be higher on the list.

[treelo]

pathwriter, on 25 July 2010 - 11:03 AM, said:

Both have Dual Wield II at level 40. As a damaging support job, /Dancer is superior. For survivability, /Ninja wins, but how often is a Thief likely to grab aggro in a normal situation? Even with hate reset, mages should be higher on the list.

If I don't pull hate with a WS, I consider myself a failure as a DD.

[pathwriter]

Well, you're playing Thief, so that's a foregone conclusion.

[treelo]

How original. We didn't need a raised level cap to make our job even remotely desirable. Just the same old Greed Seeker 4 and apparently pitiful DD capabilities. Shame really, I used to enjoy levelling with MNKs.

[pathwriter]

treelo, on 26 July 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

Shame really, I used to enjoy levelling with MNKs.

Not really sure what that is supposed to be mean.

Let's be honest, though, Thief (and Ninja) got the extreme short end of the stick with the latest update. Critical Damage Bonus is certainly appreciated, but otherwise it's a whole lot of nothing and, argue all you like, Thief was certainly not riding so high on its own potency that it needed nothing (c.f. Samurai). Dancer made out like a bandit and the only thing presently keeping it in its place is a function of who levels and plays Dancer: largely shitty players. That's not to suggest I've seen a remotely impressive Thief in a long time, though. I have seen one or two in my playtime, but if I see one more pair of Rogue's Culottes, I'm going to start going out of my way to murder the lot of them 'til they're deleveled too far to equip the useless things.

[treelo]

Quote

Not really sure what that is supposed to be mean.

Right back at you. Though if you were wondering what I meant by my comment, there was nothing behind it.

Quote

Let's be honest, though, Thief (and Ninja) got the extreme short end of the stick with the latest update. Critical Damage Bonus is certainly appreciated, but otherwise it's a whole lot of nothing and, argue all you like, Thief was certainly not riding so high on its own potency that it needed nothing (c.f. Samurai). Dancer made out like a bandit and the only thing presently keeping it in its place is a function of who levels and plays Dancer: largely shitty players. That's not to suggest I've seen a remotely impressive Thief in a long time, though. I have seen one or two in my playtime, but if I see one more pair of Rogue's Culottes, I'm going to start going out of my way to murder the lot of them 'til they're deleveled too far to equip the useless things.

If you really want to make assumptions about a job's ability to DD based upon how little they got in an update that's fine by me. While I'm sure this isn't your intention that is certainly how your initial statements come across here. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of the points you make, but if you want to come talk shit about THF in our forum then you expect at least one die-hard career THF to come clip you round the ear.

To be perfectly honest, it's been a number of years since I've seen anyone perform impressively on any job. Just an endless cycle of idiots levelling second, third, or fourth jobs before they have even taken the training wheels off their first. Condemning any job based upon it's player base is retarded though; the player makes the job, not the other way around. Regardless of what we did or did not get, I'm fairly confident in my own capacity to trounce most other DDs without too much difficulty. Most people just don't care enough to put the effort in these days, I'm all for keeping that inter-job competitive streak alive. The general population stopped caring about ability a long time ago.

I had to chuckle when I returned to WoW for a month to find this hilarious little add-on called GearScore was dctating who could do what and how good you were. The only difference here is we're forced to eyeball it. I guess it happens to every MMO of this kind eventually.

[Kaparu]

Are you still trying to subtly suggest that a thief is in any way capable of outperforming a competent two-handed melee job?

Christ, Treelo, nobody is going to tell you not to play a job you enjoy, and I'm sure you're overwhelmingly capable of annihilating most of the idiots you run into, but you need a much firmer grip on reality.

[pathwriter]

treelo, on 26 July 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

but if you want to come talk shit about THF in our forum then you expect at least one die-hard career THF to come clip you round the ear.

Expect it? I practically salivate for it. Thing is, you guys are never very strong on making an argument. I mean, you're being trounced by someone who mindlessly parrots what others say and runs away from ever having to do two minutes' worth of explaining his point-of-view if there isn't a convenient post by someone else to quote instead. The problems of parsing necessarily lend greater credence to mathematical models. Hell, you think I like knowing that Dancer, which is apparently SE's new job-of-the-month since they're apparently bored with sucking off Samurai and Puppetmaster (yes, I said it), is more capable than my preferred job when it comes to a very small niche situation?

Can a competent Thief outperform a braindead idiot still swinging an outdated weapon and using no proper gear swaps? Yeah, sure. That doesn't mean Thief is doing very well or ever was. In the land of imbeciles, someone has to be king; seems that Thief is stuck on the throne because of finnicky damage mechanics and limited means of getting around the inherent flaws of their DPS cycle. Were ranged attacks not so broken, Ranger would be the vizier, I'm certain, because of the same limitations compared to braindead auto-attacking.

[Banter]

Apparently talking shit about THF in the THF forum is akin to a massive cock.