[Raistlinratt]

Hello fellow corsairs of the ffxi community. So there is a little bit of drama going on between me and Corrderio. Corrderio is butthurt because he got kicked out of a linkshell, and he is blaming it all on his subjob choice for corsair. As a linkshell, we would continuously ask him to sub whm to things, and he would just show up cor/rdm or cor/blu. He challenged me to make a post in the COR forums, so here I am. Also, just a sidenote, I would give a fuck less about Corrderio and his opinions if he would have left my LS out of his shit talking. He attacks me and then after i defend he says

Quote

Butthurt much? Also nice to see your shell stalking my LJ.

Having problems with my opinions? There's the door, don't let it hit your ass on the way out.

Corrderio's opinion is :

Quote

Seriously if you don't believe me go ask the COR community how they feel about /WHM, most of them will even agree it's not worth using a majority of the time.

We are talking about the specific events of Salvage, Dyna, Einherjar, Sky, Sea (endgame). NOT merit parties.


Now, I am not saying that COR should never sub anything but whm, but i'll talk about each event individually.

As a broad argument, here is the math behind QD. All of you will agree that this is being generous, just for arguments sake, giving him way higher than what he would actually average.

Quote

Lets say your average QD damage without MaB sub is 350 (probably high, but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt...). Sub rdm or blu will give you +20 MaB. That is +70 damage every 45 seconds with MAX recast.

That is less than one hit every 45 seconds to a DD. You refuse to admit that the 70 damage per 45 seconds (which is being very generous, probably less) will help the event/ls less than paralynaing a dd, curing dds so mages have the MP for haste, or unbinding a dd so they can get back into the battle. Very selfish and bordering on stupidity.

P.S. Yes i'm a corsair and have better gear than you, but i still go cor/whm because it is what LS's need, not some gimp ass 70 damage every 45 seconds.

Salvage: Pretty much in almost all cases, it is best to sub whm. We do low man (doesn't everyone?) and sometimes the only people to have -na spells are the whm, and the support role, whether it be the brd or cor. Except when corrderio goes, then only the whm has -na spells. Can you honestly say, given the information above, that 70 damage every 45 seconds is better than paralynaing a dd, curagaing the dd so the mages have mp for haste, or unbinding people? Especially when only one other person on the run is capable of it? Not to mention the Chariot fights, where the speed of the paralyna and some extra curing power could mean the success or failure of a run. (discoid, paralyze, etc)... Quit trying to stroke your virtual dick. 70 damage every 45 seconds is such a joke in salvage its not even funny when compared to the DDs having haste or helping the mages out with MP.

Dynamis: Pretty much the same thing really...If you are COR in dynamis in my linkshell, you will most likely be in the blm party (we usually only have 18-24 people). What the blms need, especially if they are /nin, is the occasional cure or -na spell. What is more important, the blms getting a curaga from the corsair, a silena for the blms, paralyna for the blms, saving the blm from death, or 70 damage every 45 seconds. I don't know if you (Corrderio, if i say you, i'm usually talking to douchebag) are familiar with BLM but they would destroy the added damage you are gaining from /rdm. and saving them the MP from curing themselves allows them to nuke more, which outweighs your dmg even more.

COR QD damage in Dyna breakdown. Lets say you NEVER get resisted, and ALWAYS do 350 damage before the sub job MaB is added. So you will do 70 damage every 45 seconds. AND lets assume you shoot every 45 seconds without fail (hah...) In a 3.5 hour dyna you will do 19.600 damage. The mp you would save the blms by curagaing, giving them para/silena, etc will far outweigh the measley damage boost you are receiving. I've seen your damage in dyna parses and it is nowhere near these numbers, so it's not even really fair to use them, but whatever.

If you are in a DD party, it would be even more mandatory to sub whm, because most likely there will be only one mage, and that mage needs to haste the DD, who are doing lets say 280k damage (what i did last sandy as sam/nin) whereas you will do like 60-100. These DD would need curagas, paralynas, etc because one mage gets too stretched sometimes. This is a game where it takes a party, alliance, etc to complete things. So we each sacrifice for the good of the team. I go sam/nin a lot so i don't take as much dmg, which helps the mages (and me b/c then they can haste). Epeen people who are selfish and ignorant go /war to everything, and end up dying or wasting 5x the mp of a similar dd.


Einherjar: Are you fucking kidding me? Should this even be a discussion? This event has all kinds of -nas required, and aoes that need curagas. It is absolutely ridiculous to sub anything else for this to stroke your virtual penis. Like before, if you did a shot every 45 seconds without fail, and never resisted, that would be 2800 damage. We all know you would do FAR less than that. Who gives a shit about an extra 70 damage from the cors QD in einherjar. Corrderio is also the person who wanted to go COR/RNG while he was in the TANK party for ODIN. Need i say more?


Sky: Situational I will admit. In some instances, it would be acceptable to go cor/blu or cor/rdm. Others cor/whm will still benefit the GROUP more. This is what Corrderio fails to admit. He is so hung up on adding his extra 35-70 damage every 45 seconds. For gods though, if you have enough support!!! then it is fine to go cor/dd. If the DD party needs an extra -na help or occasional curaga or something, then obviously /whm is better. Remember, we concluded earlier that all a corsair has to do is save ONE dd a single swing every 45 seconds to outweigh his dmg boost from /rdm. I think that would be pretty easy on things that have aoe paralyze..............like Byakko that Corrderio double shotted on pop and then complained. He also diagas, which would be nice to get erased, but not super important in the argument, so i'll ignore it.


Sea: Depends on what you are doing, but I would say the support avaiable from /whm in a lot of instances would outweigh the damage. Leave that one open for debate because it's late and i'm starting to care less and less.



Things i think cor/dd are awesome at: Kirin, Ouryu kinda, depends if you need the cor to curaga or not, and i would guess Tiamat (never seen cor parsed on him before)

Edited: To correct a couple spelling errors and to add the bosses for salvage, forgot them entirely in my argument.

This post has been edited by Raistlinratt: 08 March 2010 - 02:03 AM

[Raistlinratt]

I am not saying COR can not be DD or put out really good solid numbers. I'm saying that subbing RDM or BLU over WHM will ONLY help you get 35-70 more damage per shot (45 seconds) and this damage is usually outweighed by what you could/should be doing with /whm. And all CORs know that you will not be doing a shot every 45 seconds unless its a zerg or something.


P.S. Just background info of why this started if anyone cares. Although I think he already deleted a lot of his posts because I linked them earlier.

http://killingifrit....ck/page__st__40

http://corrderio.liv...ew=68388#t68388

This post has been edited by Raistlinratt: 08 March 2010 - 01:31 AM

[BlackMoomba]

If we need cures, and I'm able to hit it, I'm going /dnc. Most other situations I'm /blm since QD'n. I'm only /whm if I'm bored and don't wanna do anything besides roll / am buffing mages / QD is ineffective.

Edit: Also if your mages really need help from a cor/whm, even from small things, something is going wrong.

This post has been edited by BlackMoomba: 08 March 2010 - 02:10 AM

[mmoptimist]

BlackMoomba, on 08 March 2010 - 02:08 AM, said:

Edit: Also if your mages really need help from a cor/whm, even from small things, something is going wrong.

your view on game mechanics is far off friend. everyone needs help from everyone. that's how the party system works. when did support jobs playing a support role become a sign that something is going wrong?

i don't think any mage NEEDS the support of a /whm cor, but I think in many situations it can make a fight easier / outweigh the benefits of a QD sub / make some clutch cures if something gets out of hand.

QD is a fun ability to adopt as your bread and butter ( ohh lookey my QD is soo highh ) and sometimes it can play an awesome damage role ( i've come close to outparsing BLMs at ouryu )
but you're simply uneducated in the capabilities and benefits of /whm compared to the benefits of a MAB sub in 90% of situations if you only go /whm when you're bored? lol

hrm fellow cors back me up here.

do i sub ninja and slugfest with an mkris for merits? fuck yea!

but do i try to be a damage dealing QD-only cor for every other event in the game just because I've heard that only bad JP cors use /whm? no i dont!

instead, i sub whm, do about 80% of the dmg i would do QD'ng with rdm or blm sub and benefit my linkshell in a far greater way than I could otherwise.

This post has been edited by mmoptimist: 08 March 2010 - 02:53 AM

[Raistlinratt]

Thank you mmoptimist, i was getting really worried there for a bit...finally lol. What i've been trying to say all along

When I saw the first reply I was like, "Fuck me..."

I felt like I went to an all black college and tried to recruit for the KKK or something, i was just waiting for all the flaming to begin.

Edit: This is the internet, nothing is out of bounds, and this is just a joke...anyone offended, i'm sorry

"It seemed like a good idea at the time" has gotten me into all sorts of trouble.

This post has been edited by Raistlinratt: 08 March 2010 - 03:12 AM

[Littlebender]

Your ls and cor suck. /thread

[Nath]

I get in trouble from my ls for pulling hate on Tia from my Quick Draws... >.>;

To be perfectly honest /rdm over /whm and bring a RR earring for these events where you think quick draw is viable and your ls wants some support. Then you get MaB I and access to cures/SS/Blink. If your needing a COR to na your party in these situations, something is wrong... while i'll admit back up curing is sometimes required of a cor, theres usually always another job to na where its needed.

Really we're there to provide rolls to the best numbers possible and im sure thats why you ask a cor to come, and im sure thats what corr does. The extra damage/curing is icing on the cake.

[Phlow]

Nath, on 08 March 2010 - 08:06 AM, said:

If your needing a COR to na your party in these situations, something is wrong...

That's pretty much been my take on it. Anytime we have a COR come /WHM, they don't communicate well with the main healer and end up -na'ing the same person. Or double-curing. I only like sub BLM for solo, sub RDM for party play (in terms of qd subs).

Do I think a COR should refuse to go /WHM? No. If the COR doesn't like it, there are plenty of other endgame shells out there.
Do I think it's a bitch move to whine about something that was entirely your choice to begin with? Yeah, it's a bitch move.

So, tl;dr:

Littlebender, on 08 March 2010 - 03:06 AM, said:

Your ls and cor suck. /thread

[ArwynOfOdin]

Littlebender, on 08 March 2010 - 03:06 AM, said:

Your ls and cor suck. /thread

While I find the above statement a bit abrasive and not very constructive, I do agree with the poster to an extent. In a nutshell, if your LS is requiring the NA's so much so that it downright outweighs an extra 1500 damage every 15-20 minutes (75 damage every 45 seconds adds up), then I think the LS has bigger issues to address. That said, any COR that insists on being /mage the majority of the time is also.. discouraging at best.

It seems LS leaders in general are just unaware of what a COR is truly capable of, and I suppose rightly so when we have CORs running around insisting COR/mage is the only way to go, with the sole exception being merits. I think a more appropriate discussion is why the COR isn't /WAR or /RNG more often. You mentioned he wanted to go COR/RNG to Odin. Given he's geared properly, that is actually a very effective combo for Odin. May I ask why was he even in the tank party? Are you short on bards or something or just using up that much mp? My COR/WAR parses right up there with RNGs on Odin, and higher on occasions when they don't RNG/WAR. And so much so, that newer members have confused me as actually being a RNG mid fight because of the numbers my ranged attacks and weaponskills put out. If you want to squander that kind of a DD slot (plus w/e buffs he's adding to his fellow DDs) all for... I don't know, an excess of MP or NAs? Then again, you seem to have bigger issues to worry about, first and foremost being ignorance when it comes to the potential of a well geared COR itself.

[Katchoo]

Quote

In a nutshell, if your LS is requiring the NA's so much so that it downright outweighs an extra 1500 damage every 15-20 minutes (75 damage every 45 seconds adds up), then I think the LS has bigger issues to address.

^ this

[zubbie]

ArwynOfOdin, on 08 March 2010 - 11:15 AM, said:

It seems LS leaders in general are just unaware of what a COR is truly capable of, and I suppose rightly so when we have CORs running around insisting COR/mage is the only way to go, with the sole exception being merits. I think a more appropriate discussion is why the COR isn't /WAR or /RNG more often. You mentioned he wanted to go COR/RNG to Odin. Given he's geared properly, that is actually a very effective combo for Odin. May I ask why was he even in the tank party? Are you short on bards or something or just using up that much mp? My COR/WAR parses right up there with RNGs on Odin, and higher on occasions when they don't RNG/WAR. And so much so, that newer members have confused me as actually being a RNG mid fight because of the numbers my ranged attacks and weaponskills put out. If you want to squander that kind of a DD slot (plus w/e buffs he's adding to his fellow DDs) all for... I don't know, an excess of MP or NAs? Then again, you seem to have bigger issues to worry about, first and foremost being ignorance when it comes to the potential of a well geared COR itself.

What happened was we were low on people for Odin. We did that particular odin with 20 ish people. We were missing alot of key people who played key roles on the fight but they had missed previous clears so they werent able to attend. So essentially I put a COR/whm in a support role in the tank party basically in place of a RDM. It wasnt an ideal situation but I didnt want to put Odin off for 2-3 days, and just decided to make a roster and go with it. After the fight he said "Next time I'm going /rng because my QD damage sucked." It has nothing to do with COR or whatever, he was basically inept or too stubborn at realizing what his role in that particular fight was and doing what was needed for the group. If I wasnt short on people, I dont care if he would of come cor/rng.

Next time came in salvage when we were doing ZR. We had a setup of basically mnk x 2, sam, cor, whm and rdm. The RDM was subbing /blm because they sleepga people incase a DD misses a shoulder tackle/hobaku on frog chorus. Its just less hectic in my opinion to let the rdm sleepga people rather than trying to kite people around when they charmed. He decided he was going to go cor/rdm after I told him to come cor/whm. So then basically you have 1 whm who has to para/erase/whatever everyone. I mean do you think thats fair to the whm, because the COR is too stubborn to play a support role? Considering the COR is likely to have half their gear do you think the extra dmg made up from /rdm QD outweighs this scenerio? If you have at least 2 melee on the chariots you should have at least 2 -na'ers to get status ailments off quick.

I dont care what people sub for whatever were doing as long as they rationalize it. But you need to understand what your doing and what the event is. Not every event is the same. If your going to say /rdm for everything because it improves your QD dmg than you arent playing your job to its potential either. I told him to sub whm because in my opinion, /whm is the safest subjob and best well rounded sj for COR. And in my opinion, he didnt have enough experience in endgame to know what the different situations were and I felt like he should come /whm to the majority of events until he was more familiar with the linkshell and with endgame. (He had only been there for 2-3 weeks). He hadnt had much previous experience with salvage and einherjar I dont think.

As far as Dynamis and Sea/Sky go, I couldnt care less what people sub. Do whatever you want as long as you have a reason for doing it.

Same thing goes with Einherjar. When you have 9 DD with a triple brd swap and whatever amount of BLM, damage is never an issue, at least not for us. Assuming DDX3, WHM, BRD, COR setup. Most mobs get wrecked so fast that a COR really doesnt much time to shoot the mob before its dead. So the whole ranged part of it is kinda moot provided your linkshell can kill fast. The QD dmg from /rdm for a 30min ein compared to /whm is so minor to a DD doing 50,000 dmg on that run. Einherjar is such a dynamic event, you never know what your going to get. I just tell the COR to go /whm because the extra curing might be needed. Its generally not (because Esuna is awesome), but you never know what your going to get. If you get a wave of nasty mobs, the healing from the COR might prove useful and help out the WHM . But the extra dmg from the COR is never going to make or break the run imo.

I guess my point is, if you have a good reason and can rationalize your subjob based on what the various different events are in the game thats great. But if your going to just say /rdm for 95% for most things in the game, than your cutting yourself and your linkshell short. If you refused to /whm because you didnt level RDM or WHM, than your not really helping anyone. If you unsure of what subjob to use for whatever your event, /whm is probably best until you have enough experience that tells you otherwise.

[ArwynOfOdin]

I don't think there's any point in rationalizing these specific situations because quite frankly, I pretty much see COR/WHM no different than a group using a DRK/WHM, which obviously I assume you'd never do. Does it come with some perks? Sure, but is it even close to being worth what you're giving up? Nope. Problem is, I really think CORs in general are slack, so nobody knows they have this amazing potential.

Just an FYI, I think COR should always be using Joytoy + haste/acc build for TP in any situation where meleeing is reasonably viable (your Einherjar example where COR doesn't have time to shoot, they should be meleeing) or fights that just don't last long. Of the 11-12 DDs we have on our Einherjar runs, I regularly parse 3rd or 4th. Not the best, but certainly nothing to take lightly considering this is against well geared DRGs, DRKs, SAMs, and WARs.

That said, because just about every COR does not even come close to realizing this potential, I almost don't blame you for insisting on COR/WHM. Almost.

If I were you, I personally demand they up their game and start using COR the way it was designed.

[1]

it sounds like you failed to effectively communicate your intentions to the player. Sometimes it not always about epeen but what they are used to. I used to be in a very powerful einherjar ls where I had the liberty /war all the time on all tiers, cause quite honestly my DD as rng/war was icing on their cake. Having switched out to another LS to be more loyal to the group as a whole, I find my self either subbing /nin other things due to lack of manpower or support.

Sometimes stupid things like this can be avoided if you attempt to not combat a persons ego with your own; but effectively communicate the need and rationale openly and honestly. Based off everything I read, which was everything. It sounds like somebody got caught up in quibbling over parse #'s with each other, versus just simply saying hey we are a little short on cures and status removal for today's event, can you please bust a hybrid with /whm please? usually it will get you better results then carte blanche demanding /whm cause it is safest job.

It's all about communication and approach, and because it has gotten to the intraweb it has obviously failed.

This post has been edited by 1: 08 March 2010 - 12:49 PM

[octoberasian]

Katchoo, on 08 March 2010 - 11:33 AM, said:

Quote

In a nutshell, if your LS is requiring the NA's so much so that it downright outweighs an extra 1500 damage every 15-20 minutes (75 damage every 45 seconds adds up), then I think the LS has bigger issues to address.

^ this

1, on 08 March 2010 - 12:47 PM, said:

it sounds like you failed to effectively communicate your intentions to the player. Sometimes it not always about epeen but what they are used to. I used to be in a very powerful einherjar ls where I had the liberty /war all the time on all tiers, cause quite honestly my DD as rng/war was icing on their cake. Having switched out to another LS to be more loyal to the group as a whole, I find my self either subbing /nin other things due to lack of manpower or support.

Sometimes stupid things like this can be avoided if you attempt to not combat a persons ego with your own; but effectively communicate the need and rationale openly and honestly. Based off everything I read, which was everything. It sounds like somebody got caught up in quibbling over parse #'s with each other, versus just simply saying hey we are a little short on cures and status removal for today's event, can you please bust a hybrid with /whm please?  usually it will get you better results then carte blanche demanding /whm cause it is safest job.

It's all about communication and approach, and because it has gotten to the intraweb it has obviously failed.

Both of you are correct.  It's why the words, "shit's situational," holds true.  If you're lacking extra cures and -na spells at an event, then yes I would say /WHM would be needed.  If you're lacking extra damage or need the extra damage, then something other than /WHM would help there.

The point is, and as "1" mentioned, it's all about communication within the group.  You cannot expect an event to go smoothly if no one communicates clearly what to sub and what to do.  The LS leader(s) or the LS itself has to communicate whether they're lacking certain jobs or damage to complete an event.  And, they have to do it effectively and with rationale thought instead of going outright starting drama in the LS over it.  If the other person takes it the wrong way, then talk to them person-to-person, and if they can't agree with it then there would be a need to remove him from the group.  It's all about teamwork and it's one thing in FFXI that is emphasized a lot.

Whatever you sub at an event, you have to consider whether it'll help everyone else or not rather than your own parse numbers.

However, it's starting to seem that a lot of LSes and players don't see Corsair as anything more than a support job like a "Bard with a gun."  Yes, Corsair can help buff and at the same time is capable of putting out damage decently just as Arwyn pointed out, and Corrdy in a way tried to get across.  Unfortunately, until the thinking of other players of Corsair as a "Bard with a gun" changes, I don't see them subbing anything than /WHM in the majority of the endgame Linkshells in FFXI.  And, rarely do I see COR sub RNG, NIN, or even RDM at an LS event because of the lack of healers.  In my last three to four LSes, there has been a lack of healers at events, especially ones capable of doing their job right.

[Silvra]

Best thing for this types of discussion is to remember the game changes with your event members. If you can do more help as COR/WHM, then come COR/WHM. However if you feel more useful as a striaght DD then do that. It is not absurd for a COR to be asked to do mage resposibility, no more than is it for COR to be asked to be a DD. If anything you should have each of the subjobs so you can be that much more helpful if you want. For example as RDMs we level /DRK for 1 spell in events, but that turns out to be very helpful depending on the event. Again if the COR wants to be full DD, no problem at all because COR makes excellent DD. However the make great buffers as well and a /MAGE support makes it all that much better.

[Bikpik]

I think the main problem is that most people don't look at Cor as a DD, they look at it as a support job, which it is really. However, it's a support job that can do decent DD, when geared properly, but the majority of people don't bother to gear it for DD properly, and that's where the confusion occurs. Cor is a second tier DD, IMO, meaning that it will never be able to compete with Sam/War/Drk/Mnk/Drg/Rng (mob dependant), it's more of a Bst/Thf/Dnc/Pup type of DD, but you don't ask any of those jobs to sub whm for a pt do you? But it's "ok" for Cor since they're going to be buffing the PT anyways.

But octo is right, "shit is situational" if you need extra -nas, and you don't have a brd then ya make the Cor go /whm. Which is another arguement, should Brd be allowed to gear up DD for certain situations as well?

[1]

Bikpik, on 08 March 2010 - 01:52 PM, said:

But octo is right, "shit is situational" if you need extra -nas, and you don't have a brd then ya make the Cor go /whm. Which is another arguement, should Brd be allowed to gear up DD for certain situations as well?

not to derail.. or should one have BRD gear up for tank even.. wait what year is this?

This post has been edited by 1: 08 March 2010 - 02:14 PM

[ArwynOfOdin]

Bikpik, on 08 March 2010 - 01:52 PM, said:

I think the main problem is that most people don't look at Cor as a DD, they look at it as a support job, which it is really. However, it's a support job that can do decent DD, when geared properly, but the majority of people don't bother to gear it for DD properly, and that's where the confusion occurs. Cor is a second tier DD, IMO, meaning that it will never be able to compete with Sam/War/Drk/Mnk/Drg/Rng (mob dependant), it's more of a Bst/Thf/Dnc/Pup type of DD, but you don't ask any of those jobs to sub whm for a pt do you? But it's "ok" for Cor since they're going to be buffing the PT anyways.

But octo is right, "shit is situational" if you need extra -nas, and you don't have a brd then ya make the Cor go /whm. Which is another arguement, should Brd be allowed to gear up DD for certain situations as well?

Is this all because COR only gets a B in marksmanship? If so, our self buffs more than make up for that (which we will always have, unlike other jobs). Otherwise, I'm just trying to understand why you view it as a second tier DD job.

[Kaparu]

I think there are underlying problems that are far more significant than what your corsairs are subbing.

Namely, why do you have a BLM party in Dynamis, and why are Dynamis(non-CoP), Salvage, Sky, and Sea linkshell events?

It never ceases to amaze me how people still, after all of these years, enjoy wasting their time doing events that require no more than a single party with an alliance and a half.

[1]

having been in some awesome Xarcabard and Glacier runs with just 12 people only thing i can think of its fun and less stressful
though I do think the community will never do these large scale events as intended which was to split up and spread out.