[Teirm]

Texas and Textbooks

-.-

[Littlebender]

Texas and school books indeed... I work in a book plant and I've been making school books for Texas
for the past two weeks.

[Kenshiro]

JESUS IS REAL< RONALD REAGAN WAS THE BEST PRESIDENT EVER!!!11!! I HATE TERRORISM!! PALIN/BECK 2012! OBAMA IS SOCIALIST SCUM< PUBLIC HEALTHCARE KILLS OLD PEOPLE AND ONLY HELPS MEXICANS! YOU LIE! US ARMY SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

[Demonsquall]

Jesus christ... I'm glad i'm not in high school anymore. The next generations are going to be mindless scripture-spewing idiots who have no concept of science. (moreso than our current generations are, of course) I guess next they'll challenge the Big Bang theory versus creationism since they're so close already.

This post has been edited by Demonsquall: 14 March 2010 - 05:17 PM

[Fencer of Alexander]

Y'all need to relax... you're assuming that 1) kids pay attention in class and 2) there are competent teachers capable of explaining concepts correctly. For the few that do pay attention, you'll have the future generation of O'Keefe/Dai super "master of disguise" conservative soldier/spy/holy warrior.

[Corrderio]

Was I the only one who seen the "Texas and Textbooks" URL and already knew this wasn't going to end well?

[DaEvilOne]

Nope...you were not the only one.

[Vigilous]

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you're assuming that 1) kids pay attention in class

This would be true and cause for no alarm if this were any other state (except Utah). However, kids don't get a chance to grow up "normal" in Texas because they are constantly assaulted by this crap at home, on the street, in school, and by their peers.

[Avatarius]

Honestly it's thanks to the separation of church and state that this country is in such bad shape... America was founded on the Christian faith, and the farther away this country gets from those strong values, the worse it gets. This country is going to hell, simply because of the fact that God isn't welcome here anymore.

Also, it's ironic that you're so quick to bitch and complain about how our next generations might be educated about the scriptures and biblical history, yet you jump at the chance to blindly accept any athiest or scientific theory as long as it disproves God.

This post has been edited by Avatarius: 15 March 2010 - 02:14 AM

[Wildstriker]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Vigilous]

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Honestly it's thanks to the separation of church and state that this country is in such bad shape... America was founded on the Christian faith, and the farther away this country gets from those strong values, the worse it gets. This country is going to hell, simply because of the fact that God isn't welcome here anymore.

No it wasn't. It was founded on the belief that any person can practice any faith they choose, and that the government would not adopt a national religion forcing its citizens to worship a god they don't believe in. While at the same time, not having a national faith keeps politics free from falling under dogmatic rule. Most Christians have had a hard time evolving their values and beliefs with the times. Christians have no problems eating shell fish, but if a man is gay, he's instantly going to hell. Where is the fucking logic in that? Please tell me! The Bible says that both gay sex and eating shell fish are an affront to God, yet now it's OK to eat shell fish. But if there's a dyke or a fag in the room, light the torches and sharpen the pitchforks.

If this country was truly founded upon the basis of the "Christian" faith, the nation would have been stuck in a dark age, where Americans would never learn to accept things that were not of their small, inconsequential little world. Blacks would have continued to be slaves, women would still be chained to a stove popping out babies every nine months, and gays - well - more than likely stoned on a daily basis. And that's just on the home front. Gods only know what our international relations could have been like.

The more secular a nation, the more of a chance it has to evolve for the better. Ironically, the only people who seem to think this country is going to hell are Christians who think the nation has lost its way because it was founded on the silly notion of an invisible man in the sky. That we some how obtained our values from this man, and that we've somehow lost it because not everyone believes in him. If you truly think everyone needs Christianity to establish a moral compass, you sir, are an idiot. Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, the South Americas, Africa and Native Americans didn't need the Christian God to establish their morals. But the Christian faith sure did a good job of bending them over a table.

Know this: I don't give a sugar-coated fuck what you believe. If you choose to worship a desk, fuck, worship a desk. Be proud that you worship that desk. Just remember: your desk is yours. It's not mine, and sure as shit isn't the nation's desk. You would think that Christians would have figured this out by now, having changed how they worship their invisible man a gazillion times.

[Avatarius]

Yes, it was. The founding fathers were largely of christian faith, and America was founded on Christian morals and values, adhering to the philosophical wisdom of Christianity. From the colonial charters which almost universally cited the glory of God and the advancement of Christianity as their motivation, to the Declaration of Independence which cites “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” and our Creator as the source of our rights and appeals “to the Supreme Judge of the world” and declares “a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,” to the U.S. Constitution which acknowledges the Christian worldview and even the Christian day of worship, our nation was founded on Christian principles so clearly that it cannot be rationally denied.

In fact, the very first act of the first congress in the United States was to bring in a minister and have congress led in prayer, and afterwards read four chapters out of the bible. When our constitution was signed, the signers made sure that they punctuated the end of it by saying, “in the year of our lord, 1787”, and 100 years later in the supreme court case of Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, the Supreme Court indicated, after recounting the long history of faith in this country, that we were a Christian nation. President George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John Kennedy, and Ronald Reagan, all disagreed with President Barack Obama’s April 6th speech in Turkey where he said that “we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a Jewish nation…”, and indicated how the bible and Judeo-Christian principles were so important to this nation. Franklin Roosevelt even led this nation in a six-minute prayer before the invasion of perhaps the greatest battle in history, in the Invasion of Normandy, and asked for God’s protection. After that war, congress came together and said, “Where are we going to put our trust?” It wasn’t in our weapons systems, or our economy, or our great decisions here. It was in God we trust.

So, if in fact we were a nation that was birthed on those Judeo-Christian principles, what was that moment in time when we ceased to so be? It wasn’t when a small group of people succeeded in taking prayer out of our schools, or when they tried to cover up the word referencing God on the Washington Monument. Or, when they tried to stop our veterans from having flag-folding ceremonies at their funerals on a voluntary basis because they mentioned God, or even when they tried in the new visitor’s center to change the national motto, and to refuse to put “in God we trust” in there.

source: http://www.dakotavoi.../2009/07/20583/

I'm sure that it is obvious to not only myself, but you as well, even in your own ignorance, that this country is in worse shape than it has ever been.

Also, you bring up racism and equal-rights? no where in the bible does it support hate crimes against blacks, nor slavery towards them. Slavery has actually been something that all of humanity has had to deal with, and it has nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible. In fact, if you would like to bring up hate crimes as well, look at the KKK. In 1915 the new klan was inaugurated after the lynching of a Judeo-Christian man in Atlanta. You may say that the KKK was built on christian values but nowhere in the bible would it support their acts; this is a good example of something that was based off christian values becoming corrupt through mankind's own sinisterity.

I use this information as an example beside the current state of the US. A nation with wholesome values, now changed so much. What was taboo 50 years ago is now "normal" these days, but not surprising since the mindset in america is such a liberal one now. Beastiality will soon become legal and fought for just as gay rights, since the worst thing that could possibly happen is for man not to get what he wants; a hate crime not to allow him to be happy and live free.

Also, the state of other countries and their history is just that-- their history. I was never talking about Africa nor china, I was simply stating what I did about my own country. We have the right to religion, to christianity, and you to atheism. If a christian parent chooses to educate their child on biblical matters, let it be. Don't be ignorant and spiteful towards them just because you don't have the same faith.. if you choose to educate your child about atheism, about evolution, about how you believe we came to be, or anything else for that matter then do so. That's your own choice. Just don't sit here and tell me what you believe is the truth without any facts to back it up..

This post has been edited by Avatarius: 15 March 2010 - 06:12 AM

[Avatarius]

double posted

This post has been edited by Avatarius: 15 March 2010 - 05:57 AM

[MrReinhardt]

I'm waiting for this whole thread to be a rick roll.

My opinion of course is biased because I always sway towards the Christians, but I still think the theory of Darwinism should be taught because it is one of the most popular scientific debates. It's hard to say the country was created on the basis of "Christian values" because it was mostly founded with the idea of independence from England, sure most of the fore-fathers were God fearing men, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the country was founded with Christian principals mostly in mind. Only way we could know for sure is if someone fires up the way back machine and finds out them self.

This post has been edited by MrReinhardt: 15 March 2010 - 08:57 AM

[Wildstriker]

Avatarius, on 15 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

Yes, it was. The founding fathers were largely of christian faith and America was founded on Christian morals and values, adhering to the philosophical wisdom of Christianity.

Correlation-causation fallacy at its finest. America was not founded on any "Christian" philosophy, it was founded because a little bit more than half who wanted independence did not want to pay taxes to a kingdom they felt no need to support. Ergo it was a mostly economical reason. It was also founded on the philosophy of John Locke that explicitly states that the state ought to stay out of religious affairs.

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From the colonial charters which almost universally cited the glory of God and the advancement of Christianity as their motivation, to the Declaration of Independence which cites “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” and our Creator as the source of our rights and appeals “to the Supreme Judge of the world” and declares “a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,” to the U.S. Constitution which acknowledges the Christian worldview and even the Christian day of worship, our nation was founded on Christian principles so clearly that it cannot be rationally denied.

Yet, the declaration of independence does not make any reference to any concretely Christian aspect, neither to the trinity, nor to Jesus. The "laws of nature" are an allusion to the notion of natural law, in which man is born with inalienable rights, no matter what his religion or status in life is. Indeed, many of the most prominent founders did not belong to any church. They were deists, not atheists, which explains their appeal to a creator. You might argue, "BUT THEY BELIEVED IN GOD", but I argue that if America were a deist minded country nowadays, you folks on the far religious right would probably become fanatics, since it is the nature of the dumb and the reactionary to do so.

Edit: I am somewhat well-versed in quite a bit of theology. The New Testament, with the exception of St. Paul's letters to the Romans, is mostly apolitical, an obvious reason being its goal is to appeal to the most people, put another way it is much more egalitarian than its counterpart in the Old Testament. Why is this important? Because, if your argument is right, then the founders would have necessarily had to appeal to other doctrine and philosophies if they were truly inspired by the teachings of Christianity, since they would be inadequate to form a Union. The only other philosopher who they could appeal to who most people on the religious right, if they are even cognizant enough to read a book point to is perhaps Saint Thomas Aquinas. But, I assure you, if we followed Saint Thomas Aquinas' line of thinking, convert or die would be more of our motto, rather than the much nicer idea of "liberty".

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In fact, the very first act of the first congress in the United States

Was to settle on how to administer oaths, because that is what people in government do. They take oaths.

Quote

Also, you bring up racism and equal-rights? no where in the bible does it support hate crimes against blacks, nor slavery towards them. Slavery has actually been something that all of humanity has had to deal with, and it has nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible. In fact, if you would like to bring up hate crimes as well, look at the KKK. In 1915 the new klan was inaugurated after the lynching of a Judeo-Christian man in Atlanta. You may say that the KKK was built on christian values but nowhere in the bible would it support their acts; this is a good example of something that was based off christian values becoming corrupt through mankind's own sinisterity.

As an atheist, some of my atheist friends chide me for being too kind to those with religious faith. But, the fact is this, the bible justifies several things that are simply atrocious: slavery, murder, infanticide, genocide, and spousal abuse. But, in your defense, the KKK was indeed built on some Christian values, but most Christians allow the needs of daily life to dictate how they practice their faith. Mankind is indeed sinister, not because of some man in the sky, although if it was the man in the sky's fault, you must be insane to think that he is omnibenevolent, but that is beside the point. This is a fact, the Bible, and all other religious books, reflect mankind's "sinister" values.

Quote

I use this information as an example beside the current state of the US. A nation with wholesome values, now changed so much. What was taboo 50 years ago is now "normal" these days, but not surprising since the mindset in america is such a liberal one now. Beastiality will soon become legal and fought for just as gay rights, since the worst thing that could possibly happen is for man not to get what he wants; a hate crime not to allow him to be happy and live free.

No basis for this whatsoever. If you accept this form of argumentation, then logically, you need to argue that interracial marriage, the most recent example of this sort of fallacious causal link. Hell, if I were to accept what you are saying, then marriage is ultimately tied to beastiality.

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Just don't sit here and tell me what you believe is the truth without any facts to back it up..

Delicious irony.

This post has been edited by Wildstriker: 15 March 2010 - 10:04 AM

[Tiamet]

Is a house defined by the people who planned it, the people who built it, or the people who live within it?

[Kenshiro]

This thread should be moved to flame wars at this point.

[firefeng]

Wildstriker said:

They were deists, not atheists, which explains their appeal to a creator.

Slight correction: A majority of the founding fathers were deists, Unitarians, Quakers, and Episcopalians. I'm just quibbling, though, since their religion has no bearing on the rest of your argument, as none of the founding fathers (nor Abraham Lincoln, if you want to include him on the pedestal of old, dead people that present people venerate for the wrong reasons) adhered to any brand of Christianity with which the irrational evangelicals of today could identify.

Avatarius said:

President George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln...all disagreed with President Barack Obama’s April 6th speech in Turkey where he said that “we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a Jewish nation…”

I laughed. (Mind you, I started laughing at the start of your post, and by the time you listed your "source", I was taken by violent seizures of paroxysmal guffaws so exaggeratedly great that I spit my stomach out of my mouth.)

George Washington - Orthodox christian with heavy deistic influences. Read: Not the Evangelical, proselytizing Pat Robertson Kansas wants in place of textbooks in Science classes.
John Adams - Unitarian. Denied the divinity of Christ, and didn't believe God interfered in the affairs of individuals.
Thomas Jefferson - "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
Andrew Jackson - Only became a Presbyterian after the end of his Presidential term, an act which was mirrored by many presidents. (Choosing a denomination after the cessation of their terms, not choosing Presbyterianism.)
Abraham Lincoln - Arguably deist, if the biographies written by his closest friends are to be believed.

The advent of the Religious Right has, by far, been the greatest submission of the government to religion since the creation of this nation. The founding fathers were very religious people, and were very intent on keeping their religions to themselves in the interest of better serving their country. The Religious Right is very intent on wearing its religion like a chintzy accessory, demeaning God into a fashionable demographic to be channeled for the sake of winning elections.

If you don't believe me, then perhaps you'd rather a source more close to home:

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Matthew 22:21)

Not that I actually think you read the Bible, save for the few trite passages your Pastor uses to punctuate his political views. Have you ever actually read the Bible in its entirety? It's a pretty good read, except for the boring parts covering Jewish lineages and all the idiotic laws with which few Jews and no Christians ever comply. Sad that I rarely see a Christian who's actually read it all.

Avatarius said:

Don't be ignorant and spiteful towards them just because you don't have the same faith.

Physician, heal thyself.

Confucius Say said:

Is a house defined by the people who planned it, the people who built it, or the people who live within it?

By Webster.

This post has been edited by firefeng: 15 March 2010 - 01:49 PM

[Tiamet]

Fuck Webster, he never even seen my house!

[Vigilous]

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We have the right to religion, to christianity, and you to atheism.

And how does a nation based on one religion guarantee that freedom? It doesn't and simply cannot, that's how. When a government takes a side in the church, it guarantees dominance, hatred, and death. And once the nation is under the boot heel of theocratic oppression, it's time to spread that mindset to other lands because if anyone isn't a God-fearing man, they are lawless savages.

By the way, George Washington never mentioned God or Jesus in any speeches nor official letters. He only referred to God once in a private letter to a relative.