[Cream Soda]

Nothing to be worried about when going against an equiv geared pup.

Not an exact comparison, but enough for general use w/o going too too detailed in the math.

Assuming both have full uuskane, 25% haste vs 17% haste (unless pup has nsash but I think we can leave that out).

348 vs 411 delay (mnk destroyers, pup hades sainti).

Even though pup will most likely have A-, we'll ignore that and also the differences from mnk's higher str and the fstr it brings them. Pummel is a better ws, and this is being far more than generous, so we'll call it a 5% increase to mnk's ws dmg.


348 vs 411 delay

1/(348/411) = 18.1% increase in attack speed.


Assuming double march, haste, 60% haste for mnk, 52% haste for pup.

8/(100-60) = 20% increase in attack speed from haste

1.20 x 1.181 = 41.72% of an increase in attack speed that mnk has in any pt w/ a brd and a rdm.

Since we're calling pummel a 5% increase, mnk is now
36.72% ahead.

This means, the maton alone would have to do 36.72% of a mnk's dmg just to break even w/ a mnk, yet alone defeat one. Also doesn't account for focus, counters, ect on the mnk's end.

Looking at the current comparison, pup really needed this overhaul just to compete, imo.


Edit: Doesn't account for the delay gained by 3+ maneuvers a minute, either.

[Sakka_Valefor]

So, what exactly is this telling us?

Sorry, I'm not a big maths person.

Are you saying an automaton has to do 36.72 of the TOTAL MNK's damage?

IE: a mnk does 1000 damage, automaton does 367.2, then they're equal (PUP+MNK total damage), assuming the other stuff?

[Cream Soda]

Yea, that's about the size of it.

[Blitzchaos]

Sooooo...



Lolpup?

[Cream Soda]

Not really lol, but nothing to be worried about in the sense that everyone was "aww man pup is broken what about mnk waaambulance ect"

[Kenshiro]

Whats your new aim account negroe.

[Cream Soda]

Same as always

[Auraeon]

I don't think anyone ever said PUP didn't need the update. But the way you did the calculations left a lot out.

You see, Oberon's Sainti are (can be, with a little patience) better than Hades (even Waghs are better.)

Also, you ignored some of PUP's Haste gear and the fact that PUP can eat sushi (or Pizza if accuracy is already at a comfortable level) because of it's ability to flip hate around to avoid Snatch Morsel.

Finally, on birds Sharpshot frame pops out 1500+ damage WSs and normal ranged attacks for 200+ while melee hits have about 300 delay with a single Wind Maneuver up with Turbo Charger equipped, meaning melee attacks launch around every 5 seconds with a 10% change of Double Attacking, not counting gear for neither Pet: Haste nor Pet: Double Attack rate.

At 10.2% TP per hit on melee attacks and ranged attacks giving 9.3% TP every ~20 seconds, with near capped accuracy (Target Marker, Stabilizers, and Scope, not counting Pet: Accuracy gear), the automaton will have over 100% TP at a minimum of every 60 seconds not counting double attack processing. Three ranged attacks and seven melee attacks ((200 x 3) + (70 x 7)=1090, meaning as much as 1090 damage per minute from an automaton before double attacks or WS. Toss the 1300-1500 damage Armor Piercer on top of that and you have nearly 2300-2600 damage a minute from the automaton alone.

If we're talking about anything that doesn't display weakness to piercing damage, simply reduce automaton WS and ranged attack damage by 25%. Melee attacks are unaffected. Automatons ignore a large chunk of Mamool Ja evasion and defense with the Target Marker and Attuner attachments as well.

Automatons easily output a large amount of damage in merit parties, as does the master. With A- skill in H2H, MNK does have a reason to be afraid. That is, until it gets additional Martial Arts traits, or something along those lines. The automaton attacking at the same time as the master is far more effective as a form of "haste" than a MNK's Martial Arts traits, especially when MNK gets three Martial Arts traits of its own, and the puppet has Haste in the form of attachment and master gear.

MNK is going to need to get something huge to bring it back to the top after PUP's skill rating in H2H is increased. And the level from 75-99 are still a mystery, because both jobs could get any number of additions. It is just a matter of which job gets something more useful in the end. Martials Arts traits for MNK or a strong WS for Valoredge frame for PUP are both the most likely additions, if not more, in my opinion.

[Cream Soda]

Sushi pup vs mnk zerk w/ the extra haste is going to be about the same, just wanted to do it for equiv geared. Destroyers are better than waghs, just wanted to do something w/ similar delay. LIke i said just a general not a full blown comparison.

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Automatons easily output a large amount of damage in merit parties,

In a low buff situation, yes. Full haste buffs, that the maton isn't getting, will be blown out of the water.


Yes things were left out, but on both sides, like how even if pup brakes 300 h2h, mnk will still have more DMG because of their way higher natural str, more fstr, ect. Also totally left out focus and dmg from counters, ect. Also left out the delay pup gets from using maneuvers.

So let's say wer'e doing the goliard 21% haste build.

60 vs 56% haste.

4/40 = 10% faster

1.181 x 1.10 = 29% faster than pup and now w/ a lot more attack (as if pup can do that build in pizza then mnk can eat meat or if pup is doing that build in sushi, mnk can use pizza)

I have pup, I have pt'd w/ pups. I konw full well what sharpshot can do, but when it is attacking much less, and ws'ing much less than everyone else that has 60% haste compared to its less than 30, spike numbers arne't going to come close to DoT. In pup's best situation, it'd be more of even grounds (Piercing weak mobs). Even w/ the 21% haste build, maton has to be 1/3 a mnk and idk which mnks you may have partied w/ but I consider myself a rather good mnk and I've never had a maton come close to to doing even half of my damage.

if buffs like marches went onto the maton, then that'd be an entire new ball park.

[Auraeon]

I'll tell you right now. Since the release of Stringing Pummel, I haven't lost a single parse on PUP at bird camp to any jobs other than RNG and THF/WAR. I'm sure an extremely well geared and merited DRG or SAM with Polearm could blow any PUP away in the job's current state, but no MNK has never -ever- come anywhere close to parsing near my PUP, even the MNKs who always tanked my Salvage chariots for me. In my experience, the jobs that get the closest to parsing anywhere near a really well-geared PUP are anything using a Polearm and occasionally a WAR with G.axe. I'm sure things change dramatically on Mamool Ja, but Colibri camp is love.

MNK's DoT isn't that special when fights only lasts a couple seconds, and its WS damage doesn't compare to other jobs. It needs something much stronger than Asuran Fists. Personally, I think MNK deserves something that puts even Pummel to shame, considering MNK is a full-out DD job and PUP isn't. Hopefully those much-needed changes will come with these coming updates.

[rambus]

Auraeon, on 20 March 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

I'll tell you right now. Since the release of Stringing Pummel, I haven't lost a single parse on PUP at bird camp to any jobs other than RNG and THF/WAR. I'm sure an extremely well geared and merited DRG or SAM with Polearm could blow any PUP away in the job's current state, but no MNK has never -ever- come anywhere close to parsing near my PUP, even the MNKs who always tanked my Salvage chariots for me. In my experience, the jobs that get the closest to parsing anywhere near a really well-geared PUP are anything using a Polearm and occasionally a WAR with G.axe. I'm sure things change dramatically on Mamool Ja, but Colibri camp is love.

MNK's DoT isn't that special when fights only lasts a couple seconds, and its WS damage doesn't compare to other jobs. It needs something much stronger than Asuran Fists. Personally, I think MNK deserves something that puts even Pummel to shame, considering MNK is a full-out DD job and PUP isn't. Hopefully those much-needed changes will come with these coming updates.

80% of the people that play are gimps though. im sure anyone here (as in posters of KI) that knows what their doing will out do x with y most of the time. the job doesn't matter. I'm sure there is thfs that can otu praze you just like any DD job out there.

one hint is are they full timing gear? I'm sure you be shocked if you watch what goes on around you.

I do think it is easy to see mnks is more of a DOT job where others are more bust though WS, if you do all the maat fights some jobs can one shot on a ws others can one shot on sc. you try that on MNK and it just kills you because it nocks maat into 2 hr. or you can look at the pretty damage on your screen. same applays to thf even though they can burst ws too though good sneak attack gear, people miss how all those little triple attacks hits add up.

This post has been edited by rambus: 20 March 2010 - 10:01 PM

[Yhelothur]

Auraeon, on 20 March 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

I'll tell you right now. Since the release of Stringing Pummel, I haven't lost a single parse on PUP at bird camp to any jobs other than RNG and THF/WAR. I'm sure an extremely well geared and merited DRG or SAM with Polearm could blow any PUP away in the job's current state, but no MNK has never -ever- come anywhere close to parsing near my PUP, even the MNKs who always tanked my Salvage chariots for me. In my experience, the jobs that get the closest to parsing anywhere near a really well-geared PUP are anything using a Polearm and occasionally a WAR with G.axe. I'm sure things change dramatically on Mamool Ja, but Colibri camp is love.

MNK's DoT isn't that special when fights only lasts a couple seconds, and its WS damage doesn't compare to other jobs. It needs something much stronger than Asuran Fists. Personally, I think MNK deserves something that puts even Pummel to shame, considering MNK is a full-out DD job and PUP isn't. Hopefully those much-needed changes will come with these coming updates.

You do realize how fast monk is with that much haste, right? Not every fight will only be a few seconds. I need to parse my monk against my PUP friend after this and see what he can do, because I think I'll still take him out. We'll have to see though.

[Cream Soda]

Auraeon, on 20 March 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

I'll tell you right now. Since the release of Stringing Pummel, I haven't lost a single parse on PUP at bird camp to any jobs other than RNG and THF/WAR. I'm sure an extremely well geared and merited DRG or SAM with Polearm could blow any PUP away in the job's current state, but no MNK has never -ever- come anywhere close to parsing near my PUP, even the MNKs who always tanked my Salvage chariots for me. In my experience, the jobs that get the closest to parsing anywhere near a really well-geared PUP are anything using a Polearm and occasionally a WAR with G.axe. I'm sure things change dramatically on Mamool Ja, but Colibri camp is love.

MNK's DoT isn't that special when fights only lasts a couple seconds, and its WS damage doesn't compare to other jobs. It needs something much stronger than Asuran Fists. Personally, I think MNK deserves something that puts even Pummel to shame, considering MNK is a full-out DD job and PUP isn't. Hopefully those much-needed changes will come with these coming updates.

Quit partying w/ gimp mnks and get a good pt set up. Are the undergeared mnks you're partying with also /nin? Try getting into a party with a good geared faith baghs /war mnk. I have mnk AND pup, both decked out, and I perform much better on mnk than I do on pup. For example, I outparsed this black belt togi haidate ect mnk on my pup, almost tied, won by a little over 1%. This same mnk, I trumped him by 12% on my own mnk.

Also, I have drg and sam, even post update, pup doesn't stand a chance of being in the same league as either of those two jobs, provided they're geared and played well (same goes for mnk, which is why I only go as it when I need buffer)

[Cream Soda]

Though, I'd like to see some of your parses, i want to compare the maton's damage more than anything else to the other DDs in a dual march haste party.


Also, your deduction on the length of the fight having anything to do with it is way off. Unless there isn't another bird waiting, then DoT is very relevant.


Example of dot not relevant: wait for meditate recast between every fight as well as sekkanoi and berserk.

Example of relevant: Constant flow of mobs every time one is dead another is right there waiting, continuous.

[azagarth1]

i think its fair to say both are probably going to be pretty damn equal after this. We still both will be beat by a polearm but i think they brought pup up to top 6 DDs easily which is good enough. Once you have top end DDs there really sint much kill speed difference. Ive done 28k/hr ptys on my pup before so its possible to hit over 30k/hr as is (didnt have cor). 2 polearms + healer + 2 support is going to rock anything, so 6th spot can literally leech so it doesnt matter anyhow ;D

in all seriousness I think pup will out DD mnk for now, but I am sure once new lv caps are in that mnk will probably take #1 spot by addition of new abilities or ws i am hoping.

[Cream Soda]

What it all comes down to is how well the maton does as compared to the mnk. The master itself will be 25-40% behind depending on the circumstances. Will the maton be able to do 25-40% of many of the mnks you see out there, sure. Will it do that a brdless party, sure. Will it do that on a 25% haste mnk w/ double marches and haste, definitely not. I can't speak for anyone else's mnk, but I've never personally had a maton come even close in my ballpark. They're just too slow. Low haste, shoots once every what 15 secs? rest is shitty dmg melee swings. Spikes a good WS, but will ws like once every 2-3 fights, ect.

[DarkRift]

I hope once this update hits I will get to see some parses from a colibri pt with a similarly geared pup and mnk.

;D Go monks!

[azagarth1]

I was checking it out on ffxi calc which I think is accurate for delay...... this assumes 2 march and haste and for me shens on both mnk and pup.

Pup with 26% haste- 171 delay

Mnk with 25% haste - 147 delay

Now that is not that huge of a difference... if you think 14 delay will impact it that much your nuts... idc what % increase it is since it wont factor in ever in realistic situations.

Now with that said mnk/war in full usu using meat miths compared to pup/drg using full haste setup and sushi means the mnk will have quite a bit of attack more lol... That is really the only area that you could argue dot wise. However I dont see people getting out of the mnk/nin mentality AND i think pup/drg may be acceptable since ppl have a lolstigma attached to them still and think they need a DD sub to compete.

So really it comes down to will 100~ attack outdo the big buff string pummel has over asuran? Yes it clearly will... however i dont think it will make the margin as large as your math points to. The fact is our auto will easily outdo what 100 attack does for mnk, and the fact I am betting right now stringing will avg 200 higher that asuran anyhow.... I dont see how mnk is going to clearly be ahead of it. If anything this shows just how mnk needs a boost since pup can practically attack just as fast as them AND they get a pet.

The attacks nice but it wont make to big of difference once your getting 2x minuet or a chaos roll.

[Cream Soda]

A) you slapped /drg on the pup, which now opens up berserk and 10% DA for mnk only, which is going to be somewhere along the lines of a 30% increase.
B ) 14 delay? 171-147 by your own numbers = 24 delay and before you say 20+ delay won't make an impact. at Martial Arts II, III, IV, V, and VI, they are all 20 delay

by the way, 171 delay is 16% slower than 147 delay.

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However I dont see people getting out of the mnk/nin mentality

Again, unfair comparison. If you want to take gimp mnks, then lets compare them to gimp pups. Or if you want to take good pups, then compare them to good mnks. Good mnks vs bad pups and good pups vs bad mnks is not a fair comparison, I'm sure you'd agree.

Quote

So really it comes down to will 100~ attack outdo the big buff string pummel has over asuran? Yes it clearly will... however i dont think it will make the margin as large as your math points to. The fact is our auto will easily outdo what 100 attack does for mnk,

400 attack base? Sure w/ no food or buffs, you'll get more than 100 attack out of zerk on mnk in a real situation. You're also forgetting the 10% DA, which is a 9.5% increase to DoT and WS frequency and the fact that even w/ capped haste, pup is still attacking 16% slower than the mnk.

As for the maton, maton is the weak link. Maton will do much less than the mnk, it'll do a lot less than the master, hell, it won't even out DD the cor (and honestly it won't if the cor has a good DD build and is actively participating in the damage and letting the bard pull).

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The attacks nice but it wont make to big of difference once your getting 2x minuet or a chaos roll.

Won't make AS big of a difference, but it's still going to have a quite large impact, especially when compounded with the fact that mnk is still attacking 16% faster and has 10% more double attack (pup has 6% DA Mnk has 16. 116/106 =9.4% increase) . The 16% increase from dealy and the 9.4% increase from DA 1.16 x 1.094 = 27% attacks more that the mnk will get w/ than the pup and this is w/o even looking at zerk. in your own scenario, the maton would have to be 27% of a mnk. What happens when you add the 100+ attack?

[Cream Soda]

Az, you're underestimating the number of attacks mnk will land over the pup. Also, 15% kick attacks were not factored in, either. While they don't do much for dmg/hit w/o dune boots, they still add a substantial amount of TP over time.