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Did some pupdate math
#41
Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:28 AM
i fail at english
Back to top
#42
Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:32 AM
etc*
#43
Posted 21 March 2010 - 12:20 PM
Cough*
#45
Posted 21 March 2010 - 12:28 PM
Homunculus, on 21 March 2010 - 10:28 AM, said:
Me fail English? That's unpossible!
ftfy
#46
Posted 21 March 2010 - 01:13 PM
humuna humuna humuna
#47
Posted 21 March 2010 - 01:25 PM
TresDuendes, on 21 March 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:
humuna humuna humuna
Ralph Kramden leaning out the window and:
Quote
"Norton! Come on down, I wanna show you somethin'!"
"Ralphie-boy, whaddaya say there pal of mine?"
"You know Norton, I've been watching you. And I know you've been watching me. You watch me! I know!"
"So, Ralph, what are you gettin' at?"
"Norton, my friend! How would you like to fuck me up the ass? I know you wanna fuck me, Norton! And you know, that I know, that you know, that I know, that you wanna fuck me! Now I'm gonna bend over, and when I do, start fuckin'... Here I go!"
"Way to go there, Ralphie-boy!"
"Ralphie-boy, whaddaya say there pal of mine?"
"You know Norton, I've been watching you. And I know you've been watching me. You watch me! I know!"
"So, Ralph, what are you gettin' at?"
"Norton, my friend! How would you like to fuck me up the ass? I know you wanna fuck me, Norton! And you know, that I know, that you know, that I know, that you wanna fuck me! Now I'm gonna bend over, and when I do, start fuckin'... Here I go!"
"Way to go there, Ralphie-boy!"
#48
Posted 21 March 2010 - 04:22 PM
Veg I agree with you that Pup is not going to be omg BROKEN!!! however it seems clear to me that now it can easily hold its own with the bad boys at the top. I really don't think its fair to use maneuvers as a one key point though and here's why.
1.) You use a maneuver once every 15-20~ sec normally. If you are a player with "skill" you will realize when you should be using these and get into a rhythm that makes it so your not losing out on dot. For instance when I xp on Pup I will use a blink maneuver when running to mobs, thus its does not slow me down at all and i can deploy same way. I may end up using one maneuver during the fight too since avg fights for most good ptys I am in go around 35~ sec when i parse it. SO one maneuver per mob is normal. However mnks will normally do one boost per mob for their ws anyhow so I think it is a wash in that situation. Then Another fact where skill comes in that paper cannot clarify is that Often time you will be able to tell who will get kill shots which is when I may use a maneuver too since I would not get it anyways thus losing me nothing DD wise.
2.) You can deploy an automaton on an incoming mob and let him grab first hate too thus holding the mob where you can engage faster. This is a trick I dont see many pups use and it just comes through skill. Doesnt hurt anyone's DD but gets the damn mob off the brd faster when your lacking voke and thus increasing xp/hr from not having to chase the damn bird around.
I love math post by you veg, and everyone else, but it is as misleading sometimes as "word of mouth" posts. Its like any science, while you can show direct fact, there is always a bias and with that bias comes confounding variables that can alter the real meaning of what you see. In this case the "dmg potential" of a job. I will be parsing vs a really good mnk in days to come. I feel that's a better indicator of what we can expect to see. Theoretical results are nice and all, but I know from my JOB that its not really always accurate and you need field testing if at all possible to see true meaning.
Anyhow with that said. I think the most fair comparison is mnk/nin vs pup/nin with mnk using meat miths and the pup crab sushi. You can talk about how thats not the best and blah blah, but its what the MAJORITY of us will see so its the only real thing that matters anyhow. Both jobs can cap acc that way too (pup in 21% haste setup) and the mnk in full usu, both using hades+1 which is reasonable (helps mnk more then pup to cap acc). The attack difference between these jobs will favor mnk by about 12 attack only so its not as huge as yall are thinking, that includes the attack coming from str too, but ya the fStr will be a big factor since mnk will have like 25 str over the pup. I think thats the biggest issue there. Also to note mnk will be 2 acc under cap still with galka dex, but overall well just call both capped.
So once adding food it comes to +30 str, and +74 attack (counting for str to attack too). So that is a big deal, but will it be large enough of a factor coupled with 24 delay and 4% haste to outdo a automaton? I thinks its fair to say will be close to a wash. Obviously the mnk will rape pup in terms of Dot, but I think the Ws's will be a wash even counting the fact mnk will get a few more ws's in over the course of a party, but pup will avg higher to probably make the overall dmg from ws alone pretty dang equal. So to me and how I approach it is will the difference in dot between mnk and pup be made up by the auto? I think after factoring 1500 AP's every 2-3 mobs, coupled with the dot from the auto Its pretty safe to say pup will have no worry about being on paar with mnk. If you think 74 attack and 30 str is giving mnk 750~ dmg a fight avg more in damage your silly.
1.) You use a maneuver once every 15-20~ sec normally. If you are a player with "skill" you will realize when you should be using these and get into a rhythm that makes it so your not losing out on dot. For instance when I xp on Pup I will use a blink maneuver when running to mobs, thus its does not slow me down at all and i can deploy same way. I may end up using one maneuver during the fight too since avg fights for most good ptys I am in go around 35~ sec when i parse it. SO one maneuver per mob is normal. However mnks will normally do one boost per mob for their ws anyhow so I think it is a wash in that situation. Then Another fact where skill comes in that paper cannot clarify is that Often time you will be able to tell who will get kill shots which is when I may use a maneuver too since I would not get it anyways thus losing me nothing DD wise.
2.) You can deploy an automaton on an incoming mob and let him grab first hate too thus holding the mob where you can engage faster. This is a trick I dont see many pups use and it just comes through skill. Doesnt hurt anyone's DD but gets the damn mob off the brd faster when your lacking voke and thus increasing xp/hr from not having to chase the damn bird around.
I love math post by you veg, and everyone else, but it is as misleading sometimes as "word of mouth" posts. Its like any science, while you can show direct fact, there is always a bias and with that bias comes confounding variables that can alter the real meaning of what you see. In this case the "dmg potential" of a job. I will be parsing vs a really good mnk in days to come. I feel that's a better indicator of what we can expect to see. Theoretical results are nice and all, but I know from my JOB that its not really always accurate and you need field testing if at all possible to see true meaning.
Anyhow with that said. I think the most fair comparison is mnk/nin vs pup/nin with mnk using meat miths and the pup crab sushi. You can talk about how thats not the best and blah blah, but its what the MAJORITY of us will see so its the only real thing that matters anyhow. Both jobs can cap acc that way too (pup in 21% haste setup) and the mnk in full usu, both using hades+1 which is reasonable (helps mnk more then pup to cap acc). The attack difference between these jobs will favor mnk by about 12 attack only so its not as huge as yall are thinking, that includes the attack coming from str too, but ya the fStr will be a big factor since mnk will have like 25 str over the pup. I think thats the biggest issue there. Also to note mnk will be 2 acc under cap still with galka dex, but overall well just call both capped.
So once adding food it comes to +30 str, and +74 attack (counting for str to attack too). So that is a big deal, but will it be large enough of a factor coupled with 24 delay and 4% haste to outdo a automaton? I thinks its fair to say will be close to a wash. Obviously the mnk will rape pup in terms of Dot, but I think the Ws's will be a wash even counting the fact mnk will get a few more ws's in over the course of a party, but pup will avg higher to probably make the overall dmg from ws alone pretty dang equal. So to me and how I approach it is will the difference in dot between mnk and pup be made up by the auto? I think after factoring 1500 AP's every 2-3 mobs, coupled with the dot from the auto Its pretty safe to say pup will have no worry about being on paar with mnk. If you think 74 attack and 30 str is giving mnk 750~ dmg a fight avg more in damage your silly.
#49
Posted 21 March 2010 - 05:24 PM
i am not to woryed about this even if we end up weeker then mnk we still have the most flexible job in game. may not be good as jobs we fill in for but least we can fill alot when needed and its just fun job and heres hopeing i can break 2k in merit pt and beet my 1500 sp.
#50
Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:40 PM
azagarth1, on 21 March 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:
Veg I agree with you that Pup is not going to be omg BROKEN!!! however it seems clear to me that now it can easily hold its own with the bad boys at the top. I really don't think its fair to use maneuvers as a one key point though and here's why.
1.) You use a maneuver once every 15-20~ sec normally. If you are a player with "skill" you will realize when you should be using these and get into a rhythm that makes it so your not losing out on dot. For instance when I xp on Pup I will use a blink maneuver when running to mobs, thus its does not slow me down at all and i can deploy same way. I may end up using one maneuver during the fight too since avg fights for most good ptys I am in go around 35~ sec when i parse it. SO one maneuver per mob is normal. However mnks will normally do one boost per mob for their ws anyhow so I think it is a wash in that situation. Then Another fact where skill comes in that paper cannot clarify is that Often time you will be able to tell who will get kill shots which is when I may use a maneuver too since I would not get it anyways thus losing me nothing DD wise.
2.) You can deploy an automaton on an incoming mob and let him grab first hate too thus holding the mob where you can engage faster. This is a trick I dont see many pups use and it just comes through skill. Doesnt hurt anyone's DD but gets the damn mob off the brd faster when your lacking voke and thus increasing xp/hr from not having to chase the damn bird around.
I love math post by you veg, and everyone else, but it is as misleading sometimes as "word of mouth" posts. Its like any science, while you can show direct fact, there is always a bias and with that bias comes confounding variables that can alter the real meaning of what you see. In this case the "dmg potential" of a job. I will be parsing vs a really good mnk in days to come. I feel that's a better indicator of what we can expect to see. Theoretical results are nice and all, but I know from my JOB that its not really always accurate and you need field testing if at all possible to see true meaning.
Anyhow with that said. I think the most fair comparison is mnk/nin vs pup/nin with mnk using meat miths and the pup crab sushi. You can talk about how thats not the best and blah blah, but its what the MAJORITY of us will see so its the only real thing that matters anyhow. Both jobs can cap acc that way too (pup in 21% haste setup) and the mnk in full usu, both using hades+1 which is reasonable (helps mnk more then pup to cap acc). The attack difference between these jobs will favor mnk by about 12 attack only so its not as huge as yall are thinking, that includes the attack coming from str too, but ya the fStr will be a big factor since mnk will have like 25 str over the pup. I think thats the biggest issue there. Also to note mnk will be 2 acc under cap still with galka dex, but overall well just call both capped.
So once adding food it comes to +30 str, and +74 attack (counting for str to attack too). So that is a big deal, but will it be large enough of a factor coupled with 24 delay and 4% haste to outdo a automaton? I thinks its fair to say will be close to a wash. Obviously the mnk will rape pup in terms of Dot, but I think the Ws's will be a wash even counting the fact mnk will get a few more ws's in over the course of a party, but pup will avg higher to probably make the overall dmg from ws alone pretty dang equal. So to me and how I approach it is will the difference in dot between mnk and pup be made up by the auto? I think after factoring 1500 AP's every 2-3 mobs, coupled with the dot from the auto Its pretty safe to say pup will have no worry about being on paar with mnk. If you think 74 attack and 30 str is giving mnk 750~ dmg a fight avg more in damage your silly.
1.) You use a maneuver once every 15-20~ sec normally. If you are a player with "skill" you will realize when you should be using these and get into a rhythm that makes it so your not losing out on dot. For instance when I xp on Pup I will use a blink maneuver when running to mobs, thus its does not slow me down at all and i can deploy same way. I may end up using one maneuver during the fight too since avg fights for most good ptys I am in go around 35~ sec when i parse it. SO one maneuver per mob is normal. However mnks will normally do one boost per mob for their ws anyhow so I think it is a wash in that situation. Then Another fact where skill comes in that paper cannot clarify is that Often time you will be able to tell who will get kill shots which is when I may use a maneuver too since I would not get it anyways thus losing me nothing DD wise.
2.) You can deploy an automaton on an incoming mob and let him grab first hate too thus holding the mob where you can engage faster. This is a trick I dont see many pups use and it just comes through skill. Doesnt hurt anyone's DD but gets the damn mob off the brd faster when your lacking voke and thus increasing xp/hr from not having to chase the damn bird around.
I love math post by you veg, and everyone else, but it is as misleading sometimes as "word of mouth" posts. Its like any science, while you can show direct fact, there is always a bias and with that bias comes confounding variables that can alter the real meaning of what you see. In this case the "dmg potential" of a job. I will be parsing vs a really good mnk in days to come. I feel that's a better indicator of what we can expect to see. Theoretical results are nice and all, but I know from my JOB that its not really always accurate and you need field testing if at all possible to see true meaning.
Anyhow with that said. I think the most fair comparison is mnk/nin vs pup/nin with mnk using meat miths and the pup crab sushi. You can talk about how thats not the best and blah blah, but its what the MAJORITY of us will see so its the only real thing that matters anyhow. Both jobs can cap acc that way too (pup in 21% haste setup) and the mnk in full usu, both using hades+1 which is reasonable (helps mnk more then pup to cap acc). The attack difference between these jobs will favor mnk by about 12 attack only so its not as huge as yall are thinking, that includes the attack coming from str too, but ya the fStr will be a big factor since mnk will have like 25 str over the pup. I think thats the biggest issue there. Also to note mnk will be 2 acc under cap still with galka dex, but overall well just call both capped.
So once adding food it comes to +30 str, and +74 attack (counting for str to attack too). So that is a big deal, but will it be large enough of a factor coupled with 24 delay and 4% haste to outdo a automaton? I thinks its fair to say will be close to a wash. Obviously the mnk will rape pup in terms of Dot, but I think the Ws's will be a wash even counting the fact mnk will get a few more ws's in over the course of a party, but pup will avg higher to probably make the overall dmg from ws alone pretty dang equal. So to me and how I approach it is will the difference in dot between mnk and pup be made up by the auto? I think after factoring 1500 AP's every 2-3 mobs, coupled with the dot from the auto Its pretty safe to say pup will have no worry about being on paar with mnk. If you think 74 attack and 30 str is giving mnk 750~ dmg a fight avg more in damage your silly.
First bolded point: Wrong. You still use the ability, which gives you a delay. Even if you blink it, you still get the delay penalty from it. Blinking abilities is most useful when chi-kiting or QD kiting with COR, things of that nature. There's still a slight delay added.
Second point: Oh no, my friend. It'll be a lot more than just a few. It's 63 delay difference between a Destroyers monk and a Hades NQ Puppetmaster. That's a full second. Add more haste on top of it, and the difference grows even more, as long as the monk isn't WS-ing with mobs at 10% and shit like that.
Just admit, you're biased towards PUP, due to you seeming to always root for the underdog. Looking at it from both sides, PUP will be good, but not as good. At least you guys have more options available to you, just be glad for that.
Also, in regards to the italicized and underlined part, there's no bias for him. He posts basic math, and he even let this be in favor of the PUP due to not taking into account a LOT of variables that push it in favor of monk more. Please, understand there's nothing biased about his math. If you can't see that, then whatever.
This post has been edited by Yhelothur: 21 March 2010 - 08:43 PM
#51
Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:41 PM
azagarth1, on 21 March 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:
Veg I agree with you that Pup is not going to be omg BROKEN!!! however it seems clear to me that now it can easily hold its own with the bad boys at the top. I really don't think its fair to use maneuvers as a one key point though and here's why.
1.) You use a maneuver once every 15-20~ sec normally. If you are a player with "skill" you will realize when you should be using these and get into a rhythm that makes it so your not losing out on dot. For instance when I xp on Pup I will use a blink maneuver when running to mobs, thus its does not slow me down at all and i can deploy same way. I may end up using one maneuver during the fight too since avg fights for most good ptys I am in go around 35~ sec when i parse it. SO one maneuver per mob is normal. However mnks will normally do one boost per mob for their ws anyhow so I think it is a wash in that situation. Then Another fact where skill comes in that paper cannot clarify is that Often time you will be able to tell who will get kill shots which is when I may use a maneuver too since I would not get it anyways thus losing me nothing DD wise.
2.) You can deploy an automaton on an incoming mob and let him grab first hate too thus holding the mob where you can engage faster. This is a trick I dont see many pups use and it just comes through skill. Doesnt hurt anyone's DD but gets the damn mob off the brd faster when your lacking voke and thus increasing xp/hr from not having to chase the damn bird around.
I love math post by you veg, and everyone else, but it is as misleading sometimes as "word of mouth" posts. Its like any science, while you can show direct fact, there is always a bias and with that bias comes confounding variables that can alter the real meaning of what you see. In this case the "dmg potential" of a job. I will be parsing vs a really good mnk in days to come. I feel that's a better indicator of what we can expect to see. Theoretical results are nice and all, but I know from my JOB that its not really always accurate and you need field testing if at all possible to see true meaning.
Anyhow with that said. I think the most fair comparison is mnk/nin vs pup/nin with mnk using meat miths and the pup crab sushi. You can talk about how thats not the best and blah blah, but its what the MAJORITY of us will see so its the only real thing that matters anyhow. Both jobs can cap acc that way too (pup in 21% haste setup) and the mnk in full usu, both using hades+1 which is reasonable (helps mnk more then pup to cap acc). The attack difference between these jobs will favor mnk by about 12 attack only so its not as huge as yall are thinking, that includes the attack coming from str too, but ya the fStr will be a big factor since mnk will have like 25 str over the pup. I think thats the biggest issue there. Also to note mnk will be 2 acc under cap still with galka dex, but overall well just call both capped.
So once adding food it comes to +30 str, and +74 attack (counting for str to attack too). So that is a big deal, but will it be large enough of a factor coupled with 24 delay and 4% haste to outdo a automaton? I thinks its fair to say will be close to a wash. Obviously the mnk will rape pup in terms of Dot, but I think the Ws's will be a wash even counting the fact mnk will get a few more ws's in over the course of a party, but pup will avg higher to probably make the overall dmg from ws alone pretty dang equal. So to me and how I approach it is will the difference in dot between mnk and pup be made up by the auto? I think after factoring 1500 AP's every 2-3 mobs, coupled with the dot from the auto Its pretty safe to say pup will have no worry about being on paar with mnk. If you think 74 attack and 30 str is giving mnk 750~ dmg a fight avg more in damage your silly.
1.) You use a maneuver once every 15-20~ sec normally. If you are a player with "skill" you will realize when you should be using these and get into a rhythm that makes it so your not losing out on dot. For instance when I xp on Pup I will use a blink maneuver when running to mobs, thus its does not slow me down at all and i can deploy same way. I may end up using one maneuver during the fight too since avg fights for most good ptys I am in go around 35~ sec when i parse it. SO one maneuver per mob is normal. However mnks will normally do one boost per mob for their ws anyhow so I think it is a wash in that situation. Then Another fact where skill comes in that paper cannot clarify is that Often time you will be able to tell who will get kill shots which is when I may use a maneuver too since I would not get it anyways thus losing me nothing DD wise.
2.) You can deploy an automaton on an incoming mob and let him grab first hate too thus holding the mob where you can engage faster. This is a trick I dont see many pups use and it just comes through skill. Doesnt hurt anyone's DD but gets the damn mob off the brd faster when your lacking voke and thus increasing xp/hr from not having to chase the damn bird around.
I love math post by you veg, and everyone else, but it is as misleading sometimes as "word of mouth" posts. Its like any science, while you can show direct fact, there is always a bias and with that bias comes confounding variables that can alter the real meaning of what you see. In this case the "dmg potential" of a job. I will be parsing vs a really good mnk in days to come. I feel that's a better indicator of what we can expect to see. Theoretical results are nice and all, but I know from my JOB that its not really always accurate and you need field testing if at all possible to see true meaning.
Anyhow with that said. I think the most fair comparison is mnk/nin vs pup/nin with mnk using meat miths and the pup crab sushi. You can talk about how thats not the best and blah blah, but its what the MAJORITY of us will see so its the only real thing that matters anyhow. Both jobs can cap acc that way too (pup in 21% haste setup) and the mnk in full usu, both using hades+1 which is reasonable (helps mnk more then pup to cap acc). The attack difference between these jobs will favor mnk by about 12 attack only so its not as huge as yall are thinking, that includes the attack coming from str too, but ya the fStr will be a big factor since mnk will have like 25 str over the pup. I think thats the biggest issue there. Also to note mnk will be 2 acc under cap still with galka dex, but overall well just call both capped.
So once adding food it comes to +30 str, and +74 attack (counting for str to attack too). So that is a big deal, but will it be large enough of a factor coupled with 24 delay and 4% haste to outdo a automaton? I thinks its fair to say will be close to a wash. Obviously the mnk will rape pup in terms of Dot, but I think the Ws's will be a wash even counting the fact mnk will get a few more ws's in over the course of a party, but pup will avg higher to probably make the overall dmg from ws alone pretty dang equal. So to me and how I approach it is will the difference in dot between mnk and pup be made up by the auto? I think after factoring 1500 AP's every 2-3 mobs, coupled with the dot from the auto Its pretty safe to say pup will have no worry about being on paar with mnk. If you think 74 attack and 30 str is giving mnk 750~ dmg a fight avg more in damage your silly.
STOP POSTING
#52
Posted 21 March 2010 - 09:04 PM
He said he blinks out during maneuvers while running towards new targets. While that doesn't make his point as a whole any more valid, he wasn't incorrect in that statement.
#53
Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:43 AM
Yeah, that wooshed me. I have a hard time reading gibberish.
Either way though, kill it with fire.
Still can't believe this guy has fucking Shen's.
Either way though, kill it with fire.
Still can't believe this guy has fucking Shen's.
#54
Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:03 AM
Kaparu, on 21 March 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:
He said he blinks out during maneuvers while running towards new targets. While that doesn't make his point as a whole any more valid, he wasn't incorrect in that statement.
So he knows how to use a ja while he's not fighting? Seriously you should stop being so gay and trying to defend the homo pups.
<3 dudo
#55
Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:49 AM
Quote
The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
* Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+.
* Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+.
/endthread
This post has been edited by Rhayve: 22 March 2010 - 09:49 AM
#56
Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:03 AM
This topic was already pointless. Now it's even more pointless 
Also, i've become the new grammar nazi meme /o/
Also, i've become the new grammar nazi meme /o/
#57
Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:16 AM
iam mnk 75 + pup 75 but now i be play more pup i like update me pet do 1.500 damage in merit pt and me pup wa strp do 1k+ i want to see iff i hit amos 2k now
#59
Posted 22 March 2010 - 11:12 AM
Boldfinger, on 22 March 2010 - 10:20 AM, said:
lol
#60
Posted 22 March 2010 - 11:41 AM
You used math when you should have used science.
GG lolmnks
GG lolmnks
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