[KadajPhD]

So, a while back I thought I had seen something about Random Deal resetting a single ability waiting on recast 100% of the time if you have the Commodore Frac on and X number of merits in Loaded Deck. The Wiki descriptions are telling me that I'm either remembering wrong, or the info was wrong.

I'm wondering if there is any way of making sure you can 100% reset a single ability you have waiting on recast (Say I roll Phantom Roll and I want to roll it again immediately) using Random Deal. I know the Frac increases success rate, but knowing SE's numbers its probably not a high enough percentage to make a major difference.

The loaded deck and random deal wiki language is confusing me a little. Need a numbers dude to help me out here. Basically what I want to be able to do is perform a makeshift BRD rotation with a COR if we're lacking a BRD or two. Without Random Deal working at least once in a 3 party rotation, I can't make it work reliably.

[Arkley]

I may be remembering this incorrectly too so you should probably wait for confirmation before you start making any choices, but if I remember correctly, a single merit in Loaded Deck is enough to guarantee that it will always reset one ability given that more than one COR JA is waiting on recast, and it will usually reset the one with the least time to go before availability. The Frac, again if I remember correctly, simply increases your chances to reset a JA if you have only one waiting and/or gives you a slight chance of resetting more than one ability.

[rambus]

loaded deck / random deal is for one ja, the body allows the chance of 2 to be reset.

loaded deck helps the success rate of random deal to hit when you only have 1 ja down, but still has a failure rate, more merits lowers the chance of this failure.
if you have 2 or more jas down, random deal hits something, regardless of merit amount

without loaded deck, random deal can still miss completely even with the body, need one merit to gartnee one gets reset with 2 down.

all the body does is allow the chance of 2 jas being hit

the body may increase the chance of one ja down to be hit, but this should not effect how you merit loaded deck, merit it once, use random deal when you have 2 jas down, one gets reset with a chance of 2. simple enough don't you think?

pretty sure the rules are the same for pt memebers, i try to be kind and tell people to have at lest 2 down so i can reset something, not sure of the point of saying " more then one COR JA is waiting on recast"

This post has been edited by rambus: 10 April 2010 - 03:35 AM

[Phlow]

KadajPhD, on 09 April 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

Basically what I want to be able to do is perform a makeshift BRD rotation with a COR if we're lacking a BRD or two. Without Random Deal working at least once in a 3 party rotation, I can't make it work reliably.

I don't understand what you are trying to do. Both Fold and Snake Eye are incredibly powerful and should have as many merits invested in them as possible (I would recommend 5xSnake Eye and 4xFold). For the makeshift BRD rotation to work, it would need to be incredibly useful or powerful. What job timers are you trying to reset? QD for sleep? Are you running Einherjar with a COR as a replacement to a BRD? I would suggest full QD merits, Mirke with -5 QD delay and ask your mages for support (usually a pull is 4-6 monsters?). But investing even 3 merits into Loaded Deck (which is rumored to have a 50% success rate with 1 ja down) would mean a difference of 5 minutes on either Snake Eyes or Fold.

[rambus]

Phlow, on 10 April 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't understand what you are trying to do. Both Fold and Snake Eye are incredibly powerful and should have as many merits invested in them as possible (I would recommend 5xSnake Eye and 4xFold). For the makeshift BRD rotation to work, it would need to be incredibly useful or powerful. What job timers are you trying to reset? QD for sleep? Are you running Einherjar with a COR as a replacement to a BRD? I would suggest full QD merits, Mirke with -5 QD delay and ask your mages for support (usually a pull is 4-6 monsters?). But investing even 3 merits into Loaded Deck (which is rumored to have a 50% success rate with 1 ja down) would mean a difference of 5 minutes on either Snake Eyes or Fold.

is it that hard to have 2 jas down? even if double up and phantom roll are down, that counts for two. i usually use it with snake eye and fold down and wait for phantom roll to be up so i can reset one of them or both of them, why would you need more then one in loaded deck for any situation?

A cor can be in a 4 step brd roation and able to give one party 2 rolls and the other party one roll quick if you don't have to double up a lot.

one way you can do this:

party 1 :
Phantom roll > double up > random deal
Party 2 :
Phantom roll > double up > wild card
Phantom roll > double up > random deal
Party 3:
Phantom roll > double up > double up w/e this point you be starting to engage.
Phantom roll > etc > etc as your fighting

if you land on lucky just pop a snake eye or fold ( you can fold good rolls too) so you need fold your self if you are giving everyone attack or something.

if you wanto t give each pt attack this could make things tricky and need be lucky once.

Party 1:
Phantom roll > double up or not double up if 4, hope for a decent roll if you need to double up. In such a rotation leave 6 alone, DU on 1 ,2 ,3 or 5
fold
Random deal when double up is up, hopes it hits both phantom roll and fold
Party 2:
if random deal miss fold or phantom deal, wild card and phantom roll (you can phantom roll first if it missed fold, missing fold and doing phantom roll before wild card may allow the last pt to get 2 rolls faster)
now do same as pt 1.
fold
party 3:
now your a bit more free to give this pt better rolls and possibly 2 rolls as you engage and what not.



this what happened for trial i did
phatom roll > hit 5 > DU > 6 I would keep that for pt 1, then fold
random deal

party 2:
Random deal hit both fold and phatom roll so i can freely give pt 2 chaos roll, hit a 4 then i fold

Party 3:
party 3 would get hit with wild card then i would chaos again then i could use snake eye or something or random deal when phantom roll and DU are down ( you can snake eye as a dummy ja if you miss out hitting phantom roll and double up or use snake eye to give a better attack buff)
after you random deal one or 2 of the jas you have down you can freely give the 3rd pt a acc buff or something as you attack.

so in short you want the last party in a cor rotate be your best so a cor can give that pt 2 rolls ( like if main drk zerg pt can be your 3rd give them both attack and acc) they still need double march from a brd though.

This post has been edited by rambus: 10 April 2010 - 12:22 PM

[KadajPhD]

Phlow, on 10 April 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't understand what you are trying to do. Both Fold and Snake Eye are incredibly powerful and should have as many merits invested in them as possible (I would recommend 5xSnake Eye and 4xFold). For the makeshift BRD rotation to work, it would need to be incredibly useful or powerful. What job timers are you trying to reset? QD for sleep? Are you running Einherjar with a COR as a replacement to a BRD? I would suggest full QD merits, Mirke with -5 QD delay and ask your mages for support (usually a pull is 4-6 monsters?). But investing even 3 merits into Loaded Deck (which is rumored to have a 50% success rate with 1 ja down) would mean a difference of 5 minutes on either Snake Eyes or Fold.

I am only trying to make COR work reliably in a BRD rotation when 1-2 BRDs are unable to be there. We may have some people as other jobs or something, and if we can free up a BRD to go as another job, it means I get a COR that can buff and deal damage if they don't suck.

My COR as is, is full QD merits, 5x snake eye, 1 LD and I think 4 Fold. I May not have finished fold yet. But in most zerg situations, I'm in dynamis and I'm there as Amano SAM or as somewhat of a makeshift DRK zerg setup. So, unfortunately I probably won't be COR very often.

I am only trying to reset Phantom Roll and keep up the same rotation time as a BRD can make, basically.

Rambus lol I really appreciate all the detail. I was thinking at first in terms of only 1 roll per PT. My initial question was for making sure I could get the same roll on each party, too, like your 2nd example. However the 1st example is much more feasible:

rambus, on 10 April 2010 - 11:24 AM, said:

one way you can do this:

party 1 :
Phantom roll > double up > random deal
Party 2 :
Phantom roll > double up > wild card
Phantom roll > double up > random deal
Party 3:
Phantom roll > double up > double up w/e this point you be starting to engage.
Phantom roll > etc > etc as your fighting

So, now with this, what happens if my first random deal misses phantom roll and I have to keep up with the brd rotation? That would mean I would need to Wild Card on the first party bounce, right?

Then I suppose I also have the possibility of missing random deal on the 2nd party bounce too, and that's only if I'm doing a single roll per PT. None of this is 100% guaranteed right? The problem I'll have is if I miss phantom roll on any of the random deals.

[rambus]

KadajPhD, on 10 April 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

I am only trying to make COR work reliably in a BRD rotation when 1-2 BRDs are unable to be there. We may have some people as other jobs or something, and if we can free up a BRD to go as another job, it means I get a COR that can buff and deal damage if they don't suck.

My COR as is, is full QD merits, 5x snake eye, 1 LD and I think 4 Fold. I May not have finished fold yet. But in most zerg situations, I'm in dynamis and I'm there as Amano SAM or as somewhat of a makeshift DRK zerg setup. So, unfortunately I probably won't be COR very often.

I am only trying to reset Phantom Roll and keep up the same rotation time as a BRD can make, basically.

Rambus lol I really appreciate all the detail. I was thinking at first in terms of only 1 roll per PT. My initial question was for making sure I could get the same roll on each party, too, like your 2nd example. However the 1st example is much more feasible:



So, now with this, what happens if my first random deal misses phantom roll and I have to keep up with the brd rotation? That would mean I would need to Wild Card on the first party bounce, right?

Then I suppose I also have the possibility of missing random deal on the 2nd party bounce too, and that's only if I'm doing a single roll per PT. None of this is 100% guaranteed right? The problem I'll have is if I miss phantom roll on any of the random deals.

I am not sure, every time i tried for our little experment it always hit phantom roll, i am not sure if there is a chance of it hitting something else and not phantom roll, even when ti does you can pop wild card and still get 1 buff for 3 parties, i can do more trails if you like to see if something else is reset without phantom roll. if you random deal with both phantom roll and double up down it should hit phantom roll, i can try doing a bit more test for you with some other people here to see what happens. that first quote qould be for one cor trying to put 2 rolls on 2 parties, you have to be lucky for that and the 3rd party would still have to wait a bit i think for the second roll since fold only gets one and you have to reroll something on your self so you can pop the wanted melee roll, unless you plan on giving the 3rd pt a different set of rolls. my SS example was a bit of a test run if you wanted to put up attack on everyone. remeber, if you must you can always snake eye up for a dummy ja down if you need 2 on recast for random deal. in all instances before you random deal you need 2 jas down, one being phantom roll, that ss i posted was all Back to back ( spammed) i didn't wait for anything.

i think this is whati boils too, if your lucky on the first random deal ( it resetting fold and PR) then you can give 2 parties, 2 rolls. if the first RD fails to reset both fold and phantom roll then just do 1 roll for 2 parties and 2 rolls for last. I am also assuming you want attack and acc roll for the parties, may be easier if you want different ones.

lets try this:

pt one:
Chaos roll > focus not getting bust or unlucky ( stay at 6) and move on

pt two:
fold > random deal > chaos roll > fold ( if it hit both) you need chaos roll gone so it dont mess up the 3rd pt.
wild card.
hunters roll > fold

pt 3:
chaos roll
random deal
hunters.

if the first random deal misses something then only the 3rd pt would get a chance of 2 rolls, dont dump 2 rolls on the second pt and put the 3rd pt at risk, so if that first misses something you would skip the pts 2 hunters roll.

if your doing this style you NEED to make sure double up is off recast. so the only jas that are down is phantom roll and fold before you random deal.

I think you want to advoid having snake eye, fold, and PR down, it might hit the 2 merit jas and you dont want that say if you wanted to use snake eye to rid an unlucky or something unless it is pre wild card where it would re set everything anyway. ill do some trails and experiment with some concepts.
so far it re-set PR expect once when i had double up and PR down. when i tried snake eye, fold, and PR down it resetted PR only.

did you know you can sit outside MH to test this? after trying combos of jas down and see what random deal resets, you can job change, then go back to cor and everything is back up. of couse this dont work on 2 hrs so you have ways of trailing it before you actually do it.

it likes to hit PR for some reason, even when i had both merit jas down it still hit it. I tried having PR, DU, fold and snake eye down, times it only hit PR, PR +SE, PR+ fold, i think it stays away from hitting DU and likes PR

kinda done testing it, you are garenteed at lest 1 roll for 3 parties, the luck comes in how fast you can roll twice for the last pt and if you can give the second pt 2 rolls.

these steps dont really relay on luck unless there is a chance of RD missing PH twice ( i dought that will happen) if you really want to relay on luck it would be giving all pts 2 rolls ( and require last pt getting a slow second roll) i think it is possible if you are lucky though)

pt 1:
roll > fold, RD( assume both)
Roll > fold.

pt 2 :
wild card,
Roll > fold > RD ( assume both)
Roll > fold

Pt 3:
gets slow rolls, can wait out for 45 secs then pop the second roll while fighting i guess.

I would recommend using snake eye DU if it would be helpful on the roll before wildcard. ( in the list i gave where luck doen't matter that would be pt-2 second roll or pt-3 first or second roll (all depends if you can go giving the second pt 2 rolls in play it safe mode), in the betting on luck one ( i do not recommend trying to give all pts 2 rolls but using snake eye would fit pt-1 second roll, pt-2 second roll ( because you used both RD by then) or one of pt 3's rolls. But I do not know if RD can hit snake eye and fold without hitting PR (what i said here assumes it can, thats why i would be carful when you snake eye), RD likes to tag PR for some reason.

if you plan on using different rolls for some reason, you can do more rolls for more parties at less risk ( since you do not need to depend on resetting fold)

This post has been edited by rambus: 10 April 2010 - 10:04 PM

[Phlow]

Makes much more sense now.

But seems like a waste of merits. Instead, find an alternate JA that won't interfere with Random Deal. I suggest (for /RNG):

*Phantom Roll
Fold or Snake Eye (If neither need it, Scavange / Camo / Sharpshot)
Random Deal (Phantom Roll timer 0:50ish, all others are 5:00 or above)
PR should Recharge
*PR again
Fold or Snake Eye
Wild Card (cross fingers!) (2, 4, 6, all job abilities recharged) (1, 3, 5, "some ja's are recharged")
*PR again
Fold or Snake Eye (if neither need it, Scavange / Camo / Sharpshot)
Random Deal (Phantom Roll timer 0:50ish, all others are 5:00 or above)
PR should recharge
*PR again

For /WAR, Defender / Warcry / Berserk
For /WHM, Divine Seal (this makes it hard as you need your Wild Card to recharge Random Deal, PR, and DS for maximum efficiency)
For /NIN, there are no JA's, so you'll have to rely on COR innate JA's, such as Snake Eye or Fold.

This should reliably get you PR x4 at least 50% of the time instantly, more likely if PR and Random Deal are hit on a bad Wild Card.

Or, like you said, you could build your merits around a burn style COR. If that's the case, though, you'd be ruining a lot of utility by not utilizing your SE and Fold to their maximum. I'd recommend restructuring your whole merit ensemble:

PR Recast 5/5 (recast at :50)
Other Group 1 Merits: 5/10

Loaded Deck 5/5 (Failure Rate: 30%)
Fold: 1/5 (15:00 recast - No need for more, 5:00 is too long for burn) (optional, you can't bust on a timed roll, it would cost too much time)
SE: 1/5 (15:00 recast - No need for more, 5:00 is too long for burn)
Winning Streak 3/5 (60s added to rolls, Roll Duration 6m)

[rambus]

I do not see the point of doing more then one loaded deck in any situation, nott hat hard to have 2 jas on recast.

I can understand merits like that if you only do cor in brd rotate but i like having 5 in snake eye and 4 in fold for other events too, its not like having a 6 m roll vs 5 is gonna matter much in burn or change the rotation i gave. you are still going to have 1 roll > 2 roll > 2 roll or 1 rolll > 1 roll > 2 roll to play it safe, the second pt getting 2 rolls depends what happens on that first random deal, there should not be any issue giving each pt 1 roll no matter the merits you have. you figure overall maybe 1 min or 2 to do the rotation then maybe 2 more mins at most for engage > kill. In other words even if you have the basic duration on rolls the w/e should be dead before the first set wears off. if you are trying to buff each pt once then trying to WC as your fighting to try reset 2 hrs that be really difficult and should not be needed, in this case the cor is burning the 2 hr to buff everyone.