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Topic pretty much says it all. Really was just curious as to peoples thoughts on this though: How do you think base damage will be handled on new weapons when SE raises the level cap? With the nature of H2H, we get a jump in base damage every 2 levels or so already. Think they'll keep giving us weapons in the D18-21 range? Or maybe a little more, towards the 25 range with higher delay? It's a stupid thread I know, but I was just curious as to what other peoples thoughts were on this.
inb4 path bitches about something
Page 1 of 1
Dumb speculation thread
#1
Posted 16 April 2010 - 10:49 AM
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#2
Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:16 AM
well from 75 to 99 if SE keeps the current skill up trend (5 skill points per lvl) it would be an extra 120 skill levels added to what we currently have. Seeing as they already raised relic to 29 dmg, it might be possible to see 25+ dmg on regular weapons. Im sure the magian trials arent done with relic just yet though
#3
Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:48 AM
I'm guessing it would end up around DMG +23 for non relics (maybe even a revival of Kaiser Knuckles and Manoples +1 =D), Maybe Shenlongs (if they even give these a Magian quest) a bit higher, like 24 or 25.
I expect the 3rd relic quest to be -delay actually. Though I hope they give us lv4 skillchain =D
I expect the 3rd relic quest to be -delay actually. Though I hope they give us lv4 skillchain =D
This post has been edited by Appie: 16 April 2010 - 11:49 AM
#4
Posted 16 April 2010 - 01:28 PM
You really need my validation that badly, troll? Here you go, then, try to slit your wrists the right way next time so that you don't rely on internet personalities to justify your continued existence.
Given almost a decade of largely horizontal growth in Final Fantasy XI, coupled with the fact that gear does not necessarily become outdated simply by virtue of its base equip level, I'm not expecting huge vertical growth to occur with the new level cap. What I mostly anticipate is that level 99 characters will be only a small percentage stronger than level 75 characters are today. I expect a smaller gap than currently exists between a level 50 and a level 75 character at present, but let's not forget that level 50 characters actually do a fair amount of damage if given the same slew of buffs available to level 75 characters. Raging Fists and Penta Thrust, to grab the two biggest, are shockingly powerful and all the moreso with Minuets, meat dishes, and Dia II backing them up. Similarly, Haste from gear even at 75 is a pale comparison to magic and JA Haste, most of which are available before 50. The game progresses with a shockingly low slope to its growth curve.
I expect the XP requirements to level up to be fairly nominal, even compared to the current requirements to get from 70 to 75 (that's around a quarter-million XP, remember). Since I don't expect rapid vertical growth and since so many players have grown used to having multiple jobs (not to mention, with a dwindling playerbase, it is practically necessary to have that flexibility as one is limited in finding someone with the appropriate job otherwise), I cannot see SE throwing out their increasingly time-friendly model by forcing players to grind through several million XP to get to 99, even accounting for the tiered level cap increases.
I do anticipate the addition of a few JAs across the 20 jobs, but I don't expect anything revolutionary to be added to Monk. The addition of another Martial Arts trait or three would be appreciated, but I expect that it will be one, if any. What I expect is that the major result of the level cap will be that currently strong monsters will become weaker simply because the level correction function will be removed (there's no positive level correction for players, so once people are past 90, all current HNMs will be Even Match or weaker). If skill caps are increased, I'd expect that monster Evasion, Defense, and HP will be subsequently increased. Let's bear in mind Cross-Counters for a moment. They're D +19, which makes them one of the strongest H2H weapons even at 75. They're pretty much bottom of the pile at 75, I freely admit, but they're still viable weapons. I don't anticipate seeing serious increases in H2H weapon damage if weapon skill caps are allowed to increase, simply because so much of Monk damage comes from Hand-to-Hand skill rather than Hand-to-Hand weapons (I'd actually love to see someone parse something like Hades Sainti against bare fists in an Accuracy-neutral environment). D +23 seems a likely baseline for level 99.
Of course, SE could also make the new levels even more nominal and treat them more or less as a second tier of merits, increasing stats, skill, and HP/MP very marginally while barely touching equipment, if at all. The Trial of the Magians is already deep into that territory, where people invest hours upon hours in acquiring something that is only marginally better than options that, in some cases, have been around for most of a decade. The continued disappointment as regards Hand-to-Hand weapons leaves me even more skeptical, since "Occasionally Attacks Twice" only applies to the main hand with Wargfangs. Most other weapon options barely manage to edge out their competition, if at all.
I'd worry about -Delay for relic weapons, by the way. I'd really hope SE comes up with something more clever than that. Delay +86 is obnoxious when people are swinging weapons like Shenlong's Baghnakhs or Mantis, but it comes with a host of compensatory factors. 2H weapon owners that are already misguidedly obsessed with a 6-hit build would likely lose their minds trying to cope with losing a further 20-30 Delay on their weapons.
Why am I so suspicious of radical changes? Well, as I said at the start, the game has been flat for most of its existence, certainly as far as the NA experience is concerned. Moreover, though, as SE has been locked into level 75 as the cap for so many years now, they've slowly pushed the boundaries of player capability and have been bumping up against an invisible wall for a while now. Long gone are the days when Monk was the only job that could reliably break 20% Haste. For that matter, caps have been implemented as regards Haste because people with Rune Chopper were simply getting too fast, what with Haste being thrown piecemeal at every other item (Tiercel Necklace, for instance). Accuracy is essentially a non-issue at this point, to the point that people sometimes forget they even need to equip it since it comes pre-packaged with so many items. Attack is presently lagging, but the developers have balanced around Chaos Roll/Valor Minuet as frequent, if not permanent, buffs in group play.
There really isn't very far to go in a lot of respects without totally re-working the game. At this stage, I don't see that as economically viable unless they're planning to use FFXI's last dying gasps as play-testing for elements they intend to put into FFXIV. Maybe they're trying to avoid the Ultima Online 2 and EverQuest 2 debacles by putting a bullet solidly into Vana'diel's collective brain stem, ensuring that competition from their previous product is non-existent or nearly so.
If we want to talk about what I'd like to see, I'd like to see the death of Utsusemi. I've loved the spell for years and was one of the first to start using it extensively as a melee, much less as a Monk. But it has completely hamstrung one-handed weapons jobs and is single-handedly responsible for destroying blood-tanking. In order for SE to keep up with the fact that everyone relies on Utsusemi (and constantly increasing Haste to fuel it), they've made NMs that hit harder and harder. Even a Paladin with Aegis and significant defensive gear cannot go toe-to-toe with a Chariot in Salvage for very long, much less a squishier job. Two-handed weapon jobs got handed a gift in terms of Seigan, but anyone who has used that seriously tends to complain loudly about its unreliability and how the player population over-rates its efficacy compared to Utsusemi. I'd love to see tanking become something that only tanks can do, but that would also mean that SE would have to rework the jobs capable of tanking as 2 out of 20 is simply not viable. Making Warrior, Monk, and maybe Samurai into solid tanks (probably at the loss of some DPS) would go a long way towards correcting the imbalance, but the underlying problem of out-of-scale monster damage with ineffectual player defenses would still need to be addressed to kill Utsusemi as the singular method of tanking. I don't want to see Ninja made obsolete, I just want it to return to the status of an option (disregarding that main-job Ninja is practically extinct these days).
If I had one wish for FFXI, though, it would be for the game to be sped about 300%. It's really difficult to believe that my 75 Monk is a Black Belt and master of the martial arts when he takes almost 6 seconds (unbuffed) to land two punches. It might be realistic, as in, it mimics the real world (can't land a haymaker every half-second), but it makes the game inexorably slow. Killing an Even Match mob with neutral defensive capabilities (e.g., no Scissor Guard) takes upwards of 3 minutes solo. Battles against NMs rarely feel epic so much as simple battles of attrition. Maybe I'm unusual, but I found it really disheartening to know that engaging a Salvage boss with 15 minutes (note: numbers may be somewhat inaccurate, it's been almost half a year) meant we had about a 50/50 chance of actually winning before timing out. 15 minutes is a hell of a long time in a video game.
Either way, I'm not holding my breath. If SE really does make the climb to 99 a grindfest requiring millions upon millions of XP, I think they'll lose a lot of subscribers. Players log in reluctantly enough at this point. I can't see people being thrilled to watch their Byakko's Haidate and Adaman Hauberk and other cherished items made obsolete, either. Having to return to being a one-job-wonder would be the final nail in the coffin, especially since I anticipate we'd see a whole lot of people trying to level Bard or Red Mage as their meal ticket to 99 and resulting in a surprising shortage of melee and tanks.
Given almost a decade of largely horizontal growth in Final Fantasy XI, coupled with the fact that gear does not necessarily become outdated simply by virtue of its base equip level, I'm not expecting huge vertical growth to occur with the new level cap. What I mostly anticipate is that level 99 characters will be only a small percentage stronger than level 75 characters are today. I expect a smaller gap than currently exists between a level 50 and a level 75 character at present, but let's not forget that level 50 characters actually do a fair amount of damage if given the same slew of buffs available to level 75 characters. Raging Fists and Penta Thrust, to grab the two biggest, are shockingly powerful and all the moreso with Minuets, meat dishes, and Dia II backing them up. Similarly, Haste from gear even at 75 is a pale comparison to magic and JA Haste, most of which are available before 50. The game progresses with a shockingly low slope to its growth curve.
I expect the XP requirements to level up to be fairly nominal, even compared to the current requirements to get from 70 to 75 (that's around a quarter-million XP, remember). Since I don't expect rapid vertical growth and since so many players have grown used to having multiple jobs (not to mention, with a dwindling playerbase, it is practically necessary to have that flexibility as one is limited in finding someone with the appropriate job otherwise), I cannot see SE throwing out their increasingly time-friendly model by forcing players to grind through several million XP to get to 99, even accounting for the tiered level cap increases.
I do anticipate the addition of a few JAs across the 20 jobs, but I don't expect anything revolutionary to be added to Monk. The addition of another Martial Arts trait or three would be appreciated, but I expect that it will be one, if any. What I expect is that the major result of the level cap will be that currently strong monsters will become weaker simply because the level correction function will be removed (there's no positive level correction for players, so once people are past 90, all current HNMs will be Even Match or weaker). If skill caps are increased, I'd expect that monster Evasion, Defense, and HP will be subsequently increased. Let's bear in mind Cross-Counters for a moment. They're D +19, which makes them one of the strongest H2H weapons even at 75. They're pretty much bottom of the pile at 75, I freely admit, but they're still viable weapons. I don't anticipate seeing serious increases in H2H weapon damage if weapon skill caps are allowed to increase, simply because so much of Monk damage comes from Hand-to-Hand skill rather than Hand-to-Hand weapons (I'd actually love to see someone parse something like Hades Sainti against bare fists in an Accuracy-neutral environment). D +23 seems a likely baseline for level 99.
Of course, SE could also make the new levels even more nominal and treat them more or less as a second tier of merits, increasing stats, skill, and HP/MP very marginally while barely touching equipment, if at all. The Trial of the Magians is already deep into that territory, where people invest hours upon hours in acquiring something that is only marginally better than options that, in some cases, have been around for most of a decade. The continued disappointment as regards Hand-to-Hand weapons leaves me even more skeptical, since "Occasionally Attacks Twice" only applies to the main hand with Wargfangs. Most other weapon options barely manage to edge out their competition, if at all.
I'd worry about -Delay for relic weapons, by the way. I'd really hope SE comes up with something more clever than that. Delay +86 is obnoxious when people are swinging weapons like Shenlong's Baghnakhs or Mantis, but it comes with a host of compensatory factors. 2H weapon owners that are already misguidedly obsessed with a 6-hit build would likely lose their minds trying to cope with losing a further 20-30 Delay on their weapons.
Why am I so suspicious of radical changes? Well, as I said at the start, the game has been flat for most of its existence, certainly as far as the NA experience is concerned. Moreover, though, as SE has been locked into level 75 as the cap for so many years now, they've slowly pushed the boundaries of player capability and have been bumping up against an invisible wall for a while now. Long gone are the days when Monk was the only job that could reliably break 20% Haste. For that matter, caps have been implemented as regards Haste because people with Rune Chopper were simply getting too fast, what with Haste being thrown piecemeal at every other item (Tiercel Necklace, for instance). Accuracy is essentially a non-issue at this point, to the point that people sometimes forget they even need to equip it since it comes pre-packaged with so many items. Attack is presently lagging, but the developers have balanced around Chaos Roll/Valor Minuet as frequent, if not permanent, buffs in group play.
There really isn't very far to go in a lot of respects without totally re-working the game. At this stage, I don't see that as economically viable unless they're planning to use FFXI's last dying gasps as play-testing for elements they intend to put into FFXIV. Maybe they're trying to avoid the Ultima Online 2 and EverQuest 2 debacles by putting a bullet solidly into Vana'diel's collective brain stem, ensuring that competition from their previous product is non-existent or nearly so.
If we want to talk about what I'd like to see, I'd like to see the death of Utsusemi. I've loved the spell for years and was one of the first to start using it extensively as a melee, much less as a Monk. But it has completely hamstrung one-handed weapons jobs and is single-handedly responsible for destroying blood-tanking. In order for SE to keep up with the fact that everyone relies on Utsusemi (and constantly increasing Haste to fuel it), they've made NMs that hit harder and harder. Even a Paladin with Aegis and significant defensive gear cannot go toe-to-toe with a Chariot in Salvage for very long, much less a squishier job. Two-handed weapon jobs got handed a gift in terms of Seigan, but anyone who has used that seriously tends to complain loudly about its unreliability and how the player population over-rates its efficacy compared to Utsusemi. I'd love to see tanking become something that only tanks can do, but that would also mean that SE would have to rework the jobs capable of tanking as 2 out of 20 is simply not viable. Making Warrior, Monk, and maybe Samurai into solid tanks (probably at the loss of some DPS) would go a long way towards correcting the imbalance, but the underlying problem of out-of-scale monster damage with ineffectual player defenses would still need to be addressed to kill Utsusemi as the singular method of tanking. I don't want to see Ninja made obsolete, I just want it to return to the status of an option (disregarding that main-job Ninja is practically extinct these days).
If I had one wish for FFXI, though, it would be for the game to be sped about 300%. It's really difficult to believe that my 75 Monk is a Black Belt and master of the martial arts when he takes almost 6 seconds (unbuffed) to land two punches. It might be realistic, as in, it mimics the real world (can't land a haymaker every half-second), but it makes the game inexorably slow. Killing an Even Match mob with neutral defensive capabilities (e.g., no Scissor Guard) takes upwards of 3 minutes solo. Battles against NMs rarely feel epic so much as simple battles of attrition. Maybe I'm unusual, but I found it really disheartening to know that engaging a Salvage boss with 15 minutes (note: numbers may be somewhat inaccurate, it's been almost half a year) meant we had about a 50/50 chance of actually winning before timing out. 15 minutes is a hell of a long time in a video game.
Either way, I'm not holding my breath. If SE really does make the climb to 99 a grindfest requiring millions upon millions of XP, I think they'll lose a lot of subscribers. Players log in reluctantly enough at this point. I can't see people being thrilled to watch their Byakko's Haidate and Adaman Hauberk and other cherished items made obsolete, either. Having to return to being a one-job-wonder would be the final nail in the coffin, especially since I anticipate we'd see a whole lot of people trying to level Bard or Red Mage as their meal ticket to 99 and resulting in a surprising shortage of melee and tanks.
#5
Posted 16 April 2010 - 09:44 PM
pathwriter, on 16 April 2010 - 01:28 PM, said:
You really need my validation that badly, troll?
Not really, but it was coming one way or another. You should be happy people still care about you.
#6
Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:02 AM
suprised nobody is considering the possiblity that skill will stay capped at lvl 75+merit levels.
#7
Posted 29 April 2010 - 04:40 AM
are you fucking dumb? why even bother raising the cap if they'll do it like that?
#8
Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:16 PM
TresDuendes, on 16 April 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:
Not really, but it was coming one way or another. You should be happy people still care about you.
lol'd
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