By your own reasoning, these mobs are untankable and therefor unbeatable with any combination. But since I'm bored, I'm going to break this down one by one.
When was the last time Paladins did significant damage on an HNM? Does that mean they can't tank mobs?
If a mob's TP moves stunt meele damage that does not mean the mob is untankable. It just means meele won't do a lot of damage. That doesn't mean shit for a PLD, it means a lot for you trying to argue that SAMs are better at HNMs.
Saying meele's take a lot of damage and are inefficient does not mean it would be difficult to cure two Paladins. But it makes curing meeles an unnecessary hassle vs. bringing RNGs
TresDuendes, on 23 April 2010 - 08:29 PM, said:
Khim - SAM can tank this np, and put out as much or more damage than a RNG.
I didn't say you couldn't tank it. But if you're tanking it, you're not doing as much damage as the Ranger.
1) You're busy with shadows and seigan while the RNG is going pew-pew
2) Mist is owning your TP while the RNG fires off sidewinders constantly.
3) Thunderstrike and Dreadstorm are owning your DOT cycle while the RNG goes pew-pew
Even if you aren't "tanking" tanking it and you're just in meele range, the second two conditions still apply. I see no theoretical way a SAM is winning this unless a Ranger is using like wooden arrows. Let's see a parse to back up your talk.
A) You're up front tanking... and you ain't doing much damage because IT HAS DAMAGE RESISTANCE ON THE FRONT
You're at the back doing damage... and by default it means you aren't tanking unless you're constantly moving it in a circle and fucking everyone else's damage.
KB - Jobs with ranged damage are pretty optimal here due to it being kited. However, I'm sure SAM could do quite well regardless.
It's squishy yes, but my point is ranged DOT will overwhelm you. Same as at Ixion and Khimaira. You're too busy running around, or casting shadows, or getting stunned... all the while RNG cause it doesn't have to do any of that crap.
Odin - Personally never fought this, but from what I've read and heard about it, I don't see why SAM wouldn't perform well in a tank roll. At the very least it can be a good DD.
/facepalm. So like is your experience on Khimaira limited to Nyzul Khim or something?
And yes SAM could tank it. That doesn't mean you will do more damage than a RNG who is sitting back going pew-pew. You aren't doing damage as much damage when your buffs are constantly being dispelled and when you are getting terrorized. And if you're tanking and have to manage shadows and seigan on top of that?
Yile - I wouldn't use SAM to tank this, but it's a perfectly fine DD against it.
But not better than RNG...
Fomor HNM - I've actually tanked some of these on MNK. I'm sure SAM would do just fine against it. I'll say that the Galka one is a huge fucking douche though, and depending if you abused draw in or not, RNG could pull ahead here.
Again... Ability to tank =/= Beating RNG in dmg.
Zim - Again, never fought this one, and again, I don't see any reason why a SAM couldn't perform extremely well. Stay out of range during the wind spam shit and you'll be just fine.
It has a 20" AOE that knocks back and resets TP. And it spams it. Constantly.
And just in case you forgot, SAM gets more PDT gear than a PLD as well as Seigan. On average, a good SAM will only take slightly more damage when compared to a PLD. And really, if the damage is that unmanageable for your mages to handle and your SAMs are going to die, you should start using RDM tanks.
First off you're just wrong. Minus pieces both can wear, SAM gets 15% from Arhat's and Paladin gets 17% from 2x Valhalla and Hauteclaire (which is also 10% MDT which is pretty important on HNMs). Unless you're going to be tanking in an Earth Staff or Iron Ram Lance. In which case I'd love to hear how your ability to tank somehow translates into doing more DMG than RNG or makes you better in HNMs. Because logically I think your ability to mitigate damage is besides the point when we are discussing ability to deal damage.
Second off, PLD is the preferred tank in HNM because of a mix of enmity and survivability. You can't self cure. You can't Flash. You have no spike JA's. And you have way shittier survivability vs. or after a high damage magic/aoe that wipes shadow. Plus PLD shield blocks give dmg reduction + no spell interrupt and they have 25% more MDT from Aegis.
Third, why bother curing 8 SAMs when you can get better damage with 8 RNGs and you don't have to cure them at all. You're playing catchup in this argument.
And if you're sitting in you're tanking shit you're DEFINITELY not beating a Ranger.
Thanks for playing but try again next time.
Kaparu, on 23 April 2010 - 09:13 PM, said:
Just for the sake of rebutting the inevitable response to Tres' comments about tanking when you're all talking about damaging, clearly if a job is capable of mitigating a manageable amount of damage while things are actually swinging at them, they're more than sturdy enough to be in range while simply being hit by AoE.
In my entire list not one mob is problematic simply because of damage. The main problem isn't the damage from the AOE but the added effects. Most HNMs on that list do something (TP loss / Stun / Terror / Dispel) that will constantly impair your ability to damage. RNGs, being out of range, don't have to deal with that
Furthermore the steps to mitigate their damage (Shadows and Seigan) will impair damage dealing capabilities. Some of those mobs are super spammy (esp with a bunch of meele swinging at them) and will require juggle casting Ichi and Ni as soon as they come up. 3 seconds casting shadows every 10 seconds is a 30% reduction in DOT and a 30% increase in time between WS.
There is a definite difference between the damage you will generate when you are focusing on damage and don't have to worry about shadows, and the damage you generate when you have to juggle shadows, and the damage you generate when you are main "tanking"
Simply losing less from subbing NIN does not mean SAMs can overcome structural advantages for RNGs
This post has been edited by Gredival: 23 April 2010 - 10:50 PM