[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 23 April 2010 - 02:57 PM, said:

Quite frankly, you play with half-AFK melee, or you don't give them the buffs you should be.

And /DRG crushes /THF in enmity mitigation and offensive bonuses, there's no reason for it.

God I'll just go back through the god damn list.

For ference DD parties are always 4x DD 1x Brd 1x Cor in my shell.


1. Khimaira - Oh hey SAM/WAR goes in, gets wrecked by Tourbillion. SAM/NIN goes in, still gets wrecked by Dreadstorm, Thunderstrike, and Tenebrous Mist. Easy win RNG via DOT.

2. Dark Ixion - Rampant Stance and Acheron Kick. If you're trying to meele you need to sub /NIN or be perma stunned. Even then you will probably get one shotted by Acheron Kick at some point because the server will hit you even if you move from the back ASAP. You're best option is /THF and TP'ing on outside mobs. RNG party always crushes the meele party from DOT for this reason. (And there's no way /DRG > /THF at Ixion)

3. King Behemoth - Players can't hit moving mobs even though mobs can hit moving players. Samurai can only hit with KB stops, Rangers don't have this problem. Easy win due to DOT for RNG.

4. Odin - SAM's offense is fine here, it's just they will soak up a lot more damage. They also have to deal with dispelga every 10% whereas RNG gets to be out of range. There's no reason to prefer a SAM over a RNG though if you could take both, unless your tanks suck ass and you need a backup.

5. Yilebegan - Dancing Tail. If you want to stay in the back you can sub /NIN or you can get wrecked. Plus all your time casting isn't time whacking the mob and doing damage/getting TP. Easy win RNG.

6. Pandemonium Warden - Do I really need to explain this? Easy win RNG.

7. Fomor Kings - Galka Paralyze aura + Grim Halo. Taru has Slow aura + Grim Halo. Elvaan has only Grim Halo, that's your best chance to win vs. the RNG. Hume is a mage fight. Mithra usually gets zerged, but in a straight up fight do you really want to be fighting a mob that can triple attack while dual wielding with incredibly low attack speed without shadows? You're doing fulltime Seigan + shadows here. 2 are wins for RNGs due to your constant slow + para + subbing NIN.

8. Zirnitra - Constant knock back from Reaving Wind + KO if you go in during calamitous wind. SAMs are utterly useless on this mob.



And Relic RNG still > Relic SAM in enmity mitigation

This post has been edited by Gredival: 23 April 2010 - 03:46 PM

[DoA]

Hey everyone, been awhile but this had my rolling while I troll'd at work.

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SAM can either Penta or Gekko spam, or do what you do a lot better with Sidewinder spam + Soboro.

My Kclub RNG disagrees.

[Kaparu]

I'm not arguing about specific situations, I'm just saying that /NIN(in addition to other things, of course) makes SAM extremely durable, and it takes next to nothing away from them offensively.

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 23 April 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

I'm not arguing about specific situations, I'm just saying that /NIN(in addition to other things, of course) makes SAM extremely durable, and it takes next to nothing away from them offensively.

And that was never my point. My point was the statement "SAM is better for HNMs [than RNGs]" is false in a large number of instances due to very real advantages of ranged damage.

[Quizno]

Level what makes you happy.

By the time you hit 99, XIV will be out anyway. If you move to that all those levels won't matter anyway. If you continue to play XI then you'll just end up leveling all your jobs anyway.

[TresDuendes]

Gredival, on 23 April 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

God I'll just go back through the god damn list.

For ference DD parties are always 4x DD 1x Brd 1x Cor in my shell.


1. Khimaira - Oh hey SAM/WAR goes in, gets wrecked by Tourbillion. SAM/NIN goes in, still gets wrecked by Dreadstorm, Thunderstrike, and Tenebrous Mist. Easy win RNG via DOT.

2. Dark Ixion - Rampant Stance and Acheron Kick. If you're trying to meele you need to sub /NIN or be perma stunned. Even then you will probably get one shotted by Acheron Kick at some point because the server will hit you even if you move from the back ASAP. You're best option is /THF and TP'ing on outside mobs. RNG party always crushes the meele party from DOT for this reason. (And there's no way /DRG > /THF at Ixion)

3. King Behemoth - Players can't hit moving mobs even though mobs can hit moving players. Samurai can only hit with KB stops, Rangers don't have this problem. Easy win due to DOT for RNG.

4. Odin - SAM's offense is fine here, it's just they will soak up a lot more damage. They also have to deal with dispelga every 10% whereas RNG gets to be out of range. There's no reason to prefer a SAM over a RNG though if you could take both, unless your tanks suck ass and you need a backup.

5. Yilebegan - Dancing Tail. If you want to stay in the back you can sub /NIN or you can get wrecked. Plus all your time casting isn't time whacking the mob and doing damage/getting TP. Easy win RNG.

6. Pandemonium Warden - Do I really need to explain this? Easy win RNG.

7. Fomor Kings - Galka Paralyze aura + Grim Halo. Taru has Slow aura + Grim Halo. Elvaan has only Grim Halo, that's your best chance to win vs. the RNG. Hume is a mage fight. Mithra usually gets zerged, but in a straight up fight do you really want to be fighting a mob that can triple attack while dual wielding with incredibly low attack speed without shadows? You're doing fulltime Seigan + shadows here. 2 are wins for RNGs due to your constant slow + para + subbing NIN.

8. Zirnitra - Constant knock back from Reaving Wind + KO if you go in during calamitous wind. SAMs are utterly useless on this mob.



And Relic RNG still > Relic SAM in enmity mitigation

By your own reasoning, these mobs are untankable and therefor unbeatable with any combination. But since I'm bored, I'm going to break this down one by one.

Khim - SAM can tank this np, and put out as much or more damage than a RNG.

DI - See Khim

KB - Jobs with ranged damage are pretty optimal here due to it being kited. However, I'm sure SAM could do quite well regardless. Btw, you can melee regular mobs while running, you just have to run ahead of them on your screen. However, KB has enhanced movement speed iirc, which makes that pretty null in this case.

Odin - Personally never fought this, but from what I've read and heard about it, I don't see why SAM wouldn't perform well in a tank roll. At the very least it can be a good DD.

Yile - I wouldn't use SAM to tank this, but it's a perfectly fine DD against it.

PW - No idea tbh, I've not read shit about it because I'm not in a ls that's anywhere near the numbers needed to beat this.

Fomor HNM - I've actually tanked some of these on MNK. I'm sure SAM would do just fine against it. I'll say that the Galka one is a huge fucking douche though, and depending if you abused draw in or not, RNG could pull ahead here.

Zim - Again, never fought this one, and again, I don't see any reason why a SAM couldn't perform extremely well. Stay out of range during the wind spam shit and you'll be just fine.


And just in case you forgot, SAM gets more PDT gear than a PLD as well as Seigan. On average, a good SAM will only take slightly more damage when compared to a PLD. And really, if the damage is that unmanageable for your mages to handle and your SAMs are going to die, you should start using RDM tanks.

This post has been edited by TresDuendes: 23 April 2010 - 08:34 PM

[Kaparu]

Just for the sake of rebutting the inevitable response to Tres' comments about tanking when you're all talking about damaging, clearly if a job is capable of mitigating a manageable amount of damage while things are actually swinging at them, they're more than sturdy enough to be in range while simply being hit by AoE.

[Gredival]

TresDuendes said:

By your own reasoning, these mobs are untankable and therefor unbeatable with any combination. But since I'm bored, I'm going to break this down one by one.

When was the last time Paladins did significant damage on an HNM? Does that mean they can't tank mobs?

If a mob's TP moves stunt meele damage that does not mean the mob is untankable. It just means meele won't do a lot of damage. That doesn't mean shit for a PLD, it means a lot for you trying to argue that SAMs are better at HNMs.

Saying meele's take a lot of damage and are inefficient does not mean it would be difficult to cure two Paladins. But it makes curing meeles an unnecessary hassle vs. bringing RNGs

TresDuendes, on 23 April 2010 - 08:29 PM, said:

Khim - SAM can tank this np, and put out as much or more damage than a RNG.

I didn't say you couldn't tank it. But if you're tanking it, you're not doing as much damage as the Ranger.

1) You're busy with shadows and seigan while the RNG is going pew-pew
2) Mist is owning your TP while the RNG fires off sidewinders constantly.
3) Thunderstrike and Dreadstorm are owning your DOT cycle while the RNG goes pew-pew

Even if you aren't "tanking" tanking it and you're just in meele range, the second two conditions still apply. I see no theoretical way a SAM is winning this unless a Ranger is using like wooden arrows. Let's see a parse to back up your talk.

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DI - See Khim

A) You're up front tanking... and you ain't doing much damage because IT HAS DAMAGE RESISTANCE ON THE FRONT

or

You're at the back doing damage... and by default it means you aren't tanking unless you're constantly moving it in a circle and fucking everyone else's damage.

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KB - Jobs with ranged damage are pretty optimal here due to it being kited. However, I'm sure SAM could do quite well regardless.

It's squishy yes, but my point is ranged DOT will overwhelm you. Same as at Ixion and Khimaira. You're too busy running around, or casting shadows, or getting stunned... all the while RNG cause it doesn't have to do any of that crap.

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Odin - Personally never fought this, but from what I've read and heard about it, I don't see why SAM wouldn't perform well in a tank roll. At the very least it can be a good DD.

/facepalm. So like is your experience on Khimaira limited to Nyzul Khim or something?

And yes SAM could tank it. That doesn't mean you will do more damage than a RNG who is sitting back going pew-pew. You aren't doing damage as much damage when your buffs are constantly being dispelled and when you are getting terrorized. And if you're tanking and have to manage shadows and seigan on top of that?

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Yile - I wouldn't use SAM to tank this, but it's a perfectly fine DD against it.

But not better than RNG...

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Fomor HNM - I've actually tanked some of these on MNK. I'm sure SAM would do just fine against it. I'll say that the Galka one is a huge fucking douche though, and depending if you abused draw in or not, RNG could pull ahead here.

Again... Ability to tank =/= Beating RNG in dmg.

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Zim - Again, never fought this one, and again, I don't see any reason why a SAM couldn't perform extremely well. Stay out of range during the wind spam shit and you'll be just fine.

/facepalm.

It has a 20" AOE that knocks back and resets TP. And it spams it. Constantly.

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And just in case you forgot, SAM gets more PDT gear than a PLD as well as Seigan. On average, a good SAM will only take slightly more damage when compared to a PLD. And really, if the damage is that unmanageable for your mages to handle and your SAMs are going to die, you should start using RDM tanks.

First off you're just wrong. Minus pieces both can wear, SAM gets 15% from Arhat's and Paladin gets 17% from 2x Valhalla and Hauteclaire (which is also 10% MDT which is pretty important on HNMs). Unless you're going to be tanking in an Earth Staff or Iron Ram Lance. In which case I'd love to hear how your ability to tank somehow translates into doing more DMG than RNG or makes you better in HNMs. Because logically I think your ability to mitigate damage is besides the point when we are discussing ability to deal damage.

Second off, PLD is the preferred tank in HNM because of a mix of enmity and survivability. You can't self cure. You can't Flash. You have no spike JA's. And you have way shittier survivability vs. or after a high damage magic/aoe that wipes shadow. Plus PLD shield blocks give dmg reduction + no spell interrupt and they have 25% more MDT from Aegis.

Third, why bother curing 8 SAMs when you can get better damage with 8 RNGs and you don't have to cure them at all. You're playing catchup in this argument.

And if you're sitting in you're tanking shit you're DEFINITELY not beating a Ranger.

Thanks for playing but try again next time.

Kaparu, on 23 April 2010 - 09:13 PM, said:

Just for the sake of rebutting the inevitable response to Tres' comments about tanking when you're all talking about damaging, clearly if a job is capable of mitigating a manageable amount of damage while things are actually swinging at them, they're more than sturdy enough to be in range while simply being hit by AoE.

In my entire list not one mob is problematic simply because of damage. The main problem isn't the damage from the AOE but the added effects. Most HNMs on that list do something (TP loss / Stun / Terror / Dispel) that will constantly impair your ability to damage. RNGs, being out of range, don't have to deal with that

Furthermore the steps to mitigate their damage (Shadows and Seigan) will impair damage dealing capabilities. Some of those mobs are super spammy (esp with a bunch of meele swinging at them) and will require juggle casting Ichi and Ni as soon as they come up. 3 seconds casting shadows every 10 seconds is a 30% reduction in DOT and a 30% increase in time between WS.

There is a definite difference between the damage you will generate when you are focusing on damage and don't have to worry about shadows, and the damage you generate when you have to juggle shadows, and the damage you generate when you are main "tanking"

Simply losing less from subbing NIN does not mean SAMs can overcome structural advantages for RNGs

This post has been edited by Gredival: 23 April 2010 - 10:50 PM

[TresDuendes]

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When was the last time Paladins did significant damage on an HNM?

Honestly, I should have stopped here but I still read the entire post and I'm sure you're speaking out of your ass. Either that or you run with some gimp shells that bring 8-10 DDs (that arent blm) to shit like that.

Oh and last, Hauteclaire? fucking lol

[TresDuendes]

Honestly, do you even know why SAM doesn't well on HNM as a DD?

[Gredival]

TresDuendes, on 23 April 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

Honestly, I should have stopped here but I still read the entire post and I'm sure you're speaking out of your ass. Either that or you run with some gimp shells that bring 8-10 DDs (that arent blm) to shit like that.

Oh and last, Hauteclaire? fucking lol

1. Being able to Atonement on Fafnir / Cerb does not count as "significant" damage. If a PLD outparses your DD with that shit, your DD's are terrible.

2. All right whip out your epeen. Three Amanos, Three Anniliators, Three Apocalypses, Three Bravuras, Three Mandaus, Five Yoichinoyumis, One Spharai. We've beaten AV. We've fought PW below 50%. (BTW the Yoichi's always win on everything on that list)

3. Do I really have to get into a fucking Chainsaw+1 vs. Hauteclaire argument with you?

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Honestly, do you even know why SAM doesn't well on HNM as a DD?

Your statement, which I called you out on, was that SAM was better for HNM than RNG.

I never said "SAM was useless" nor even "SAM is bad." I merely said RNG is better. That doesn't even mean SAM "doesn't well on HNM"

"Doesn't well" =/= Beating a RNG.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 23 April 2010 - 11:22 PM

[Hoshiku]

Yes, a SAM can tank most stuff, but not because SAM is so amazingly awesome that they glare at the mob and it falls down dead. There are a lot of jobs that can tank (MNK, WAR, WHM, RDM, PLD, NIN... I'm sure I've missed a few), SAM happens to be one of them. I can't think of a single job that can tank the mobs listed without a tank party. So bring a SAM party to DD mobs with nasty AoEs when a RNG party could do it just as easily. If you bring that many support jobs to a fight, more power to you.

[Kaparu]

What the hell is a "tank party"? Bard, healer- that's all a SAM needs to tank better than the more traditional tanks on 90% of mobs.

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 23 April 2010 - 11:32 PM, said:

What the hell is a "tank party"? Bard, healer- that's all a SAM needs to tank better than the more traditional tanks on 90% of mobs.

Better? Define better. Yes they'll do some more damage.

But on the vast majority of mobs they'll be less MP efficient; the vast majority of damage on HNMs comes from magic. They can't juggle shadows nearly as well; shield block, especially with Aegis, make PLD way better at that. They lack any JA's for spike enmity. They can't generate non-volatile enmity as reliably either.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 23 April 2010 - 11:42 PM

[Kaparu]

If there's a significant difference between the damage intake of one of your paladins and one of your samurai, its because your samurai are ill-prepared or incompetent.

PLD, and by extension, RDM(which is better than PLD at mitigation and enmity generation regardless), offer superfluous safety nets in exchange for overall utility. This isn't a new concept.

And if you need enmity generation that doesn't solely rely on damage, DRK is still a better option than traditional tanks.

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 23 April 2010 - 11:58 PM, said:

If there's a significant difference between the damage intake of one of your paladins and one of your samurai, its because your samurai are ill-prepared or incompetent.

I don't understand how a SAM can get anywhere close to an Aegis PLD/RDM on MDT. Physical sure if we're going to discount Hauteclaire in favor of chainsaw...

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PLD, and by extension, RDM(which is better than PLD at mitigation and enmity generation regardless), offer superfluous safety nets in exchange for overall utility. This isn't a new concept.

I don't think it's superfluous for many of those mobs. For a few mobs NQ Fafnir, Cerb, Turtle, sure you don't need PLDs NINs or RDMs.

But the rest of those mobs I listed, even if your healers are keeping you up, I don't think you'll be holding hate very well. At the very least with only physical damage for hate you won't be able to keep these mobs off ... aggressive Rangers

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And if you need enmity generation that doesn't solely rely on damage, DRK is still a better option than traditional tanks.

Honestly I haven't seen this to evaluate it but the problem that would stick out to me would be damage mitigation, especially on a very spammy mob.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 24 April 2010 - 12:16 AM

[Kaparu]

SAM can get 22% MDT off the AH, and a fair handful of MDB and INT on top of that. Are you forgetting that Shell covers over half of your MDT needs?

And what competent PLD uses either of those swords in more than two or three situations?

I have to assume that you have no experience outside of linkshells that use medieval techniques, because you seem completely oblivious to how difficult you're making something really, really easy sound.

Edit: And for the record, I don't mean that to be insulting. You're exposed to what you're exposed to.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 24 April 2010 - 12:20 AM

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 24 April 2010 - 12:17 AM, said:

SAM can get 22% MDT off the AH, and a fair handful of MDB and INT on top of that. Are you forgetting that Shell covers over half of your MDT needs?

And what competent PLD uses either of those swords in more than two or three situations?

I have to assume that you have no experience outside of linkshells that use medieval techniques, because you seem completely oblivious to how difficult you're making something really, really easy sound.

And if you're wearing all that coral gear I highly doubt you're going to be doing very much damage. Thus resulting in a lower hate line, thus requiring a slower kill with more attention to enmity.

There's no reason to fix something that isn't broken. With multiple Aegis PLDs and Relic DD's, a PLD's higher hate threshhold lets DD's fight much more aggressively. I highly doubt you can burn down Khimaira or Dark Ixion in 10 minutes using non-traditional tanks.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 24 April 2010 - 12:22 AM

[Kaparu]

Gredival, on 24 April 2010 - 12:22 AM, said:

And if you're wearing all that coral gear I highly doubt you're going to be doing very much damage. Thus resulting in a lower hate line, thus requiring a slower kill with more attention to enmity.

There's no reason to fix something that isn't broken. With multiple Aegis PLDs and Relic DD's, a PLD's higher hate threshhold lets DD's fight much more aggressively. I highly doubt you can burn down Khimaira or Dark Ixion in 10 minutes using non-traditional tanks.

I'm really trying to be nice here, but you seem to know even less about enmity mechanics than you do about tank efficiency.

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 24 April 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

I'm really trying to be nice here, but you seem to know even less about enmity mechanics than you do about tank efficiency.

And it sounds like you haven't been in linkshell of a high enough caliber to have DD's who constantly ride near the capped hate and require tanks who can keep near capped hate.

We aren't talking about birds, you can't ride hate cap on HNMs by swinging your GK in coral gear.

Aegis PLD/RDMs (or RDM/NINs) with self-cure macros, especially fueled by Ghorn ballads, offer the best in enmity generation while also bringing more damage mitigation than any of your non-traditional tanks. Any loss in damage from having losing two slots for the PLDs can be more than compensated for by increased aggression by the DD's with a higher hate threshold.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 24 April 2010 - 12:47 AM