[Sorai]

K I've heard about nins being able to hit fast without buffs and kclub.
Is it possible? Cuz I've yet to see any yet, then again most nins (like me) don't have a propper haste set.
and second question, is it a good idea to give up fast hits for high dmg high delay weapons.
Cuz ever since the magin moogle update, I'm seeing nins not only hit slower, but wear these funky katanas that offer a high base dmg.

[TresDuendes]

what.
the.
fuck.

[Shirai]

TresDuendes, on 29 April 2010 - 04:03 AM, said:

what.
the.
fuck.

^
This pretty much.
Mind asking the question again in proper English?
English isn't my native tongue so I have trouble understanding anything that is classifiable as such but yet deviates from it.
Although I have a feeling that the people of native English tongue will also have trouble trying to understanding your form of communication.

This post has been edited by Shirai: 29 April 2010 - 07:37 AM

[rambus]

Sorai, on 29 April 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:

K I've heard about nins being able to hit fast without buffs and kclub.

I have heard that nins being able to hit fast without buffs and k-club. (he is trying to get across K-club should not be required to hit fast)

Is it possible? Cuz I've yet to see any yet, then again most nins (like me) don't have a propper haste set.

What gear set do you need it possable to hit fast. what is the proper setup people use? I do not have the best setup so i do not know how nins hit as fast as i herd.

and second question, is it a good idea to give up fast hits for high dmg high delay weapons.

At what point is a slower delay weapon better then a faster, less damage weapon

Cuz ever since the magin moogle update, I'm seeing nins not only hit slower, but wear these funky katanas that offer a high base dmg.

I seen more NiNs use slower, higher base damage weapons after the update, is this a good idea to do? I seen some odd looking weapons that may not look right

can not find one without buffs, i rmemeber a pvp vid of a haste nin that hti fast but here is the concept he is trying to get across:


not sure what was so hard ot understand -.-

This post has been edited by rambus: 29 April 2010 - 08:46 AM

[Nattack]

because of TP floor update, nins dont go for the lowest possible delay anymore.

as far as speed/damage goes, sacrificing per hit damage for hit per second damage is a no brainer. or at least, it should be. if you hit enough times to overtake the damage of a slower, but higher power weapon. its natural to choose the faster weapon. in most cases. unless say, you only want to WS and cant do regular TPing (like going sam or /sam in such a position that you cannot tp on the monster in question, or for starting weapon skills in such situations like the old time bomb quest in PM 5-3, you would always start out with a higher damage weapon. and then switch to zerg after such.)

[Deo2]

I've mostly seen high damage in the main hand, and low delay in the sub hand.

This post has been edited by Deo2: 29 April 2010 - 05:21 PM

[Sorai]

Well 3/5 people seem to understand me perfectly, maybe it's only you two, I know education is expensive but really? lol
As for the people who answered my questions, thank you.
Anyway, ya I kinda figured base dmg>faster hits that do less altogether, just thought I'd ask some other nins what they do.

[Nattack]

it would be a crime to do it any other way.

edit: also i didn't understand you that well. Most of what you were asking didnt make any sense without deciphering what you may have been trying to say.

This post has been edited by Nattack: 29 April 2010 - 08:50 PM

[Sorai]

Well it's comprehensible then, next time I won't use big words lol.
and comprehensible(com-pri-hen-sable) means read-able, just in case. XD

This post has been edited by Sorai: 29 April 2010 - 09:05 PM

[pathwriter]

Ok, first off, you didn't use big words. At all. You also apparently have difficulty spelling small words, like "proper." It's six letters, whizkid.

Secondly, your question was very ill-defined. It is barely comprehensible regardless of how badly you want to butcher phonetic spelling to claim otherwise. You asked, in essence, "Is it possible for a Ninja to attack fast?" Well, duh. You didn't give any kind of baseline for what "fast" is, but considering we're talking about a job with an inherent delay reduction of 30% (with 40% being very easy to achieve) that swings weapons whose Delay falls between daggers and swords, by any measure of "fast," Ninja achieves that.

Also, what Ninjas besides apparently you do not have a decent Haste set? At bare minimum, any idiot can get Headlong Belt, Walahra Turban, Dusk Gloves and Fuma Sune-Ate. That's 14% Haste right there, which isn't amazing, but it is pretty solid. Change Headlong to Swift, add Byakko's Haidate, that's 20% Haste and, if you're just going for speed, Ninja Chainmail and Suppanomimi will account for the above 40% delay reduction. Seriously, though, what kind of idiot Ninjas are you looking at that cannot swing at least 14% Haste? That's over halfway to the gear cap.

The last of your questions, for anyone who could puzzle through your declarative statements posing as interrogative ones, is probably the only one worth dignifying with an answer, but it should be somewhat obvious. Heavy hitting main hand for weaponskills, quick off hand for TP build. It shouldn't exactly be rocket science. I'll accept that Isatu might throw people off with its moderate delay, but the extra attacks more than make up for the slight slowdown.

You know, the only thing I can think is that you're used to playing Corsair with a Joyeuse and a pile of buffs (because Corsairs get pretty lackluster Haste options) and you cannot seem to parse the difference between single-wielding a weapon that regularly double attacks and dual-wielding two single attack weapons. Ninja is fast, it's kinda what they're known for.

[Oulanbator]

There are a few things to take into consideration:
- the speed at which you attack
- the speed at which you get to 100 Tp
- the power of your regular attacks
- the power of your weaponskills

¤ Speed at which you attack
The faster the better. It's mostly defined by haste, dual-wield gear and weapon delay.

¤ Speed at which you get to 100 Tp
Your objective should be to reach 5Tp/hit (in order to be able to WS after 10 attack rounds). The Tp you gain is defined by your delay. The delay is defined by the type of katanas and the dual-wield gear you're wearing. The lower delay and the more dual-wield gear you have, the less you have chances to get 5Tp/hit. However you can compensate your lower delay with store-tp gear (that's why people use rajas ring).
You have to do maths or to test this to see what works and what doesn't. However, if your delay is too low, you'll get less than 5Tp/hit, and you will be slower to WS than you would with a higher delay.

¤ Power of regular attacks
This is mostly seen by the Dps stat of weapons (stat you'll find on various sites). The higher the dps is, the better the weapon will be. Sometimes a weapon with small base damage and small speed will do more damage than a weapon with higher base damage. This is the case with the Perdu blade (32/190): your hits are a bit weaker, but the speed gain is so good it deals more damage on the long run than a weapon with more base damage like Nagiritsune (38/227).
But be careful, sometimes a weapon seems fast, but its damage is too weak to make it good. For example, Onishibari (28/185) seems good because it's really fast, but in facts it's a weak weapon because the base damage is really low.

¤ The power of your weaponskills
When performing a weaponskill, the first hit is defined by your main-hand weapon, the additional hits are also defined by your main-hand weapon, and there is an extra hit performed with your off-hand weapon. The first hit also receives more potency bonus than the following hits. The stronger your main-hand weapon is, the stronger your weaponskill will be.
So you should try to get a weapon with high base damage in main hand.


The usual way to find out what to equip is:
- find a strong main-hand weapon (high damage and high dps - people usually use Senji because it got high damage and dps and crit bonuses which are good for Jin)
- find an off-hand weapon that is fast in order to speed up your attack speed (usually perdu blade is the best option. If not
- find out how much DW and Store-Tp you can equip to stay at 5Tp/hit. Usually Suppa is always good. Sometimes AF Body isn't, it depends on your gear setup.

And you should be set for a balanced setup in most situations. However, you can adjust this depending on what you do as well. If you fight really weak mobs, faster setups should be good if you can stay above the 5Tp/hit, if you fight higher lv mobs, sometimes it's wiser to focus on accuracy and strong hits instead of attacking fast. It depends on the situation.

What matters is to understand how all this works, so you can figure out what gear you want to equip. We cannot conclude fast > high base damage. It's all about the situation.

This post has been edited by Oulanbator: 30 April 2010 - 01:23 AM

[Creelo]

Sorai, on 29 April 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

Well 3/5 people seem to understand me perfectly, maybe it's only you two, I know education is expensive but really? lol
As for the people who answered my questions, thank you.
Anyway, ya I kinda figured base dmg>faster hits that do less altogether, just thought I'd ask some other nins what they do.

Speak for yourself.

Agreed with Path.

[Sorai]

wow....ok so I misspell a word by one letter and that throws you off? hmm....no seriously, that's sad >.>
The tips are nice, but for once in your life can you guys do without the extra commentary?
"omg you misspelled proper as propper lyke ohhhhmyyyygawd" nah, seems like you guys found a venue to create drama lol.
Seems rambus is the only one who has a brain here, yup.

This post has been edited by Sorai: 30 April 2010 - 02:31 PM

[pathwriter]

Ok, fuckwits, I tried the civil way, now I'm going to do it the correct way and then you're going to go on some narcissistic rant about how wonderful you are and how terrible everyone else in the world is.

I know it might be a little hard to penetrate your foot-thick granite skull here, but I wasn't thrown off by your atrocious spelling so much as your complete inability to form sentences and thoughts in a way that makes sense. I've met mashed potatoes with a better grasp of basic English diction. The fact that you have such an unbelievably puerile ego that you think you used any "big words" defies description and I was emphasizing your paint-chip-eating idiocy by pointing out that you cannot even spell small words, much less utilize "big" ones. You're a painfully stupid stain of fetid feces and the fact that you're praising KI's resident illiterate cements your position as a complete ninny. Not that anyone had any doubt after managing to translate your original post from retard to English and realizing that you suggested Ninjas have a hard time putting together a basic Haste kit. I'd recommend that you go have an ammonia-and-bleach cocktail, but you'd manage to screw that up somehow, too.

[Nattack]

<3

[Sakka_Valefor]

This is why I love Onorgul so much.

<3

[Kenshiro]

http://en.wikipedia...._%28Internet%29

[pathwriter]

You raise a good point, Kenshiro: you are a troll.

[shadowdereapz]

Seriously just fucking LOL at this whole thread. Stupid question is a stupid question, but i'll answer it anyway,
So lets look at what kinda delay you can get down to without stuff like v.belt or byakko's.


With your typical senj/perdu setup (227/190 delay) your looking at a base total delay before haste of 291.9, which is 4.9 seconds. Lets add that basic 14%(13.67% actual) haste set, your now looking at 251.9918 total delay(4.2 seconds) between attack rounds.

Lets add in Ninja Chainmail. Your now at 233.9924 total delay(3.9 seconds) between attack rounds.

Now for Koga Hakama(not hard to obtain), which brings you down to 215.993 total delay(3.6 seconds.)

And now Suppanomimi, which brings you to 197.9936 total delay(3.3 seconds) and still only at 14% haste.

Now for the haste spell which adds 14.65% haste, Your now sitting at 163.7254 total delay(2.7 seconds) and roughly 29% total haste

Now add Victory march which adds about 9.38% haste, and your looking at 142.2239 total delay(2.4 seconds) and now roughly 38% total haste.

And finally Advancing march which adds about the same as Victory march, and your hitting 120.7223 total delay(2.0 seconds) and roughly 47% total haste.

So yes ninja's can hit fast without a full haste build(most of the haste you recieve comes from buffs anyway,) but please note you'll drop your tp/hit down to 4.6tp/hit using Suppanomimi/Ninja Chainmail/Koga Hakama, along with Rajas ring and Brutal earring. So you now have 11 attack rounds to 100%, but your are swinging faster.
And to be honest, chances are your accuracy is severely lacking if your using all that stuff.
Even with PCC, Perdu blade, Toreador's ring, cuch mantle, and fire bomblet your only at +33 accuracy(Which is the best gear you can get basiclly in surrounding slots, so I highly doubt a player without byakko's would have most if any of it) If you have no katana merits and are elvaan(67 base dex) you only have 336.8 total accuracy(60.8%% vs lvl 82 meripo birds), which is seriously fail. Add crab sushi and you'd still only be at 380.584 total accuracy(82.7%) which is better, but still fail in my opinion considering YOU SHOULD BE CAPPED WITH SUSHI or at least damn close. So yea, you can attack fast with a nin that has a minimal haste build but your gonna miss like shit, which will make it not even worth it against anything worthwhile.
(yes I said minimal. A nin at 75 without at least 14% is just fail.)

If you don't understand after all that, you have some problems, Honestly i'm wondering why the fuck I typed it all out as you probably won't understand it anyway.
Also, I may have made mistakes in calculating this, I'm not perfect and I'm tired as hell atm so my brain not functioning right.

This post has been edited by shadowdereapz: 01 May 2010 - 02:35 PM

[rambus]

this is the vid i wanted to show, his buffs wore off at a point so ya :