[KittyFatale]

i currently have rattk/snapshot on my ACP body. but have seen a few rangers on my server with rattk/storetp or racc/storetp augment.

is it worth redoing ACP to get the store tp augment or should i stick to rattk/snapshot?

[Banter]

if the stp will get you a 5 hit /sam or 6 hit /war, do it. Should always have Snapshot + whatever other augment though.

[Demireamer]

baner is right IMO but he doesn't really say way making him kinda useless imo.

ok For all DD here is Stp 101 w/reamer

ok when you WS you loss all your tp not just 100%
so any tp over 100% is useless until you get 200%
so if your going to add Stp to you set it should make it so you get to 100% i swing (or shot) sooner
say your gettin 16 tp a swing @7 swings you get 112tp and get to ws
if you add stp 3 you will get @7 115tp the 3 more tp will not help your damge in any way
now if you got for target a % that will make it so you can do 1 less swing befor WS

used in my exaple
6 hit you need 16.7tp swing
5 hit you need 20.0tp swing
4 hit you need 25.0tp swing

B = base TP
T = Target tp to help out thought who dont get this to find this number first you find the TP you get with WS set on we willl call x then you pic the amout of tp you want in are case as in the case of most TP burn is 100% and let Z be the number of swing in your biuld -1. then you get (Y-X)/z=T to find T
S = Stp/100+1

B*S=T
T/B=S

if you want a 5 hit biuld(thats in my numbers above) for your 16 tp a hit weapons the you need 20/16=1.25 1.25=Stp/100+1 .25=Stp/100 25=Stp
sam will gice you 15 stop lv60+ so this player would need to get 10 more stp, 41 more if he was trying for a 4

now to help you out more here is some math for rng

v/e bow 490+120 15tp a shot 7 hits
14 Stp for a 6
34 Stp for a 5

sele bow 540+120 15.4tp a shot 7 hits (and the new Siege Bow too)
9 stp for a 6
30 stp for a 5

hellfire +1 640+240 17.1tp a shot 6 hit
17 stp for a 5hit
47 stp for a 4hit

Spitfire 660+240 17.2tp a shot 6 hit
17 Stp for a 5
46 stp for a 4

how dose this help you lets say your a rng/sam with a e bow
your Stp starts a +15 from your sj so your already @ a 6 hit biuld.
now look at all the stp you have or are able to,
dose it add up to 19?
if so they you dont need to redo your body for a 5 hit biuld,
is it 14 or less?
if so then you dont want to redo your body cuz you will still only havea 6 hit biuld
is it 15 16 17 or 18?
then yes the Stp on this body would be better for you IMO

rng stp equpment


EDIT: edited to help so the slow kids inthe call will get it, your wellcome Armant.

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 11 July 2010 - 12:03 PM

[Armant]

I realize you're trying to help out. But you are giving out vague and in some cases flat out wrong information....

Also: Snapshot augment on Mirke is overstated. Due to the way ranged attacks work, Snapshot+5 is more like 3-4% increase in TP gain. That is iff you are shooting the exact second you are able to shoot again. Wait even half a second and snapshot can be lowered to 1-2% attack speed increase. Hell, if you dont shoot every second possible, there is a very good chance you're getting 0 benefit from the augment. Rattack and Racc auments will be 100% usefull 100% of the time.(Assuming you dont cap on ACC in the first place, or have capped Pdif).

[Demireamer]

im guess you where not talking about me, seeing as i said nothing about snapshot, right Armant?

if you are talking to me im sry my english is so bad and your math is so bad you could see Stp instead of ranged delay, and as far as flat out wrong information.

Snapshot will alwasy be in effect even if your a lazy rng your shot will still go off sooner. and rng whi hits the /ra macro .2 sec late will still be a bit sooner with snapshot cuz the shot when off soon the bow when aways sooner and his inter clock started soon. now if your a rng who just /ra periodically not spaming arrows/bullets then a snapshot build isn't for you.

and as you say you self the Racc will give you NOTHING if you are already at hit rate cap and as a ranger 90% of the time i am with out trying
teh usefullness of +10 ratk on a mob with high def is well debate able not worthing going that far off point.

to me the ACP body would be waisted on my rng it whent to my smn, but snapshot still has it use even if its nto as good as haste

now this whole snapshot debate is way OFF topic the OP and everyone up to you was talking about Stp,

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 10 July 2010 - 12:07 AM

[Banter]

Armant, on 09 July 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

I realize you're trying to help out. But you are giving out vague and in some cases flat out wrong information....

Also: Snapshot augment on Mirke is overstated. Due to the way ranged attacks work, Snapshot+5 is more like 3-4% increase in TP gain. That is iff you are shooting the exact second you are able to shoot again. Wait even half a second and snapshot can be lowered to 1-2% attack speed increase. Hell, if you dont shoot every second possible, there is a very good chance you're getting 0 benefit from the augment. Rattack and Racc auments will be 100% usefull 100% of the time.(Assuming you dont cap on ACC in the first place, or have capped Pdif).

In that case, get a higher delay weapon, get a lower X-hit, and put the Snapshot to use again.

[Armant]

Demireamer, on 10 July 2010 - 12:06 AM, said:

im guess you where not talking about me, seeing as i said nothing about snapshot, right Armant?

if you are talking to me im sry my english is so bad and your math is so bad you could see Stp instead of ranged delay, and as far as flat out wrong information.

Snapshot will alwasy be in effect even if your a lazy rng your shot will still go off sooner. and rng whi hits the /ra macro .2 sec late will still be a bit sooner with snapshot cuz the shot when off soon the bow when aways sooner and his inter clock started soon. now if your a rng who just /ra periodically not spaming arrows/bullets then a snapshot build isn't for you.

and as you say you self the Racc will give you NOTHING if you are already at hit rate cap and as a ranger 90% of the time i am with out trying
teh usefullness of +10 ratk on a mob with high def is well debate able not worthing going that far off point.

to me the ACP body would be waisted on my rng it whent to my smn, but snapshot still has it use even if its nto as good as haste

now this whole snapshot debate is way OFF topic the OP and everyone up to you was talking about Stp,

Actually I was talking to you.

There actually is a difference between 100% TP and 101% TP; just like there is a difference between 151% and 175%. Its not 100% TP intervals. Someone who has 199% TP and another who has 200% TP isnt going to miraculously do less damage.

You dont need 16.7/20/25 TP per hit; you need to get to 100% TP. Your formula doesnt account for WS TP returns. You need ON AVERAGE 16.7/20/25 TP per shot. Believe it or not; some people dont always weaponskill in their TP gear and will get different returns.

Snapshot is only useful if you're shooting 100% of the time; we dont have an auto attack function. Also if you're capping ACC without ACC+10 on the mirke; wear less accuracy gear elsewhere. If youre still capped, eat meat and wear more ACC gear. Shit is situational as they say; but the ACC+10 has more uses than snapshot.

How is this debate off topic? He wants to ask if STP is acceptable on RNG(Which it is). Why do you want STP--To weaponskill quicker. What does snapshot do? I assume he wants an optimal Mirke; I am merely suggesting that snapshot isnt all its cracked up to be; to the point of where not only is ACC+10 a similar increase to DPS, but in a lot of situations its a greater increase.

[Demireamer]

Armant, on 10 July 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

Actually I was talking to you.

There actually is a difference between 100% TP and 101% TP; just like there is a difference between 151% and 175%. Its not 100% TP intervals. Someone who has 199% TP and another who has 200% TP isnt going to miraculously do less damage.

You dont need 16.7/20/25 TP per hit; you need to get to 100% TP. Your formula doesnt account for WS TP returns. You need ON AVERAGE 16.7/20/25 TP per shot. Believe it or not; some people dont always weaponskill in their TP gear and will get different returns.

sorry i wasn't planing to carter to the think, Slugwinder Ftp of 5 if its 100% 200% 215% 172% 132% so no it doesn't. and i never clam t will always be 100% once agien i thoguth most people whould get that and i didn't need to spell it out so much sry you didn't get that my English isn't great. and people with Stp biuld are looking to lower number of swing/shots too 100% most of the time, so they can TP Burn as is the way most PT and end game event seem to go these days.

Armant, on 10 July 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

Snapshot is only useful if you're shooting 100% of the time; we dont have an auto attack function.

like i said if your not spamming arrows/bullet then snapshot isn't for you. but if your trying to do the most dmg you probably shooting your arrows/bullets

Armant, on 10 July 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

Also if you're capping ACC without ACC+10 on the mirke; wear less accuracy gear elsewhere. If youre still capped, eat meat and wear more ACC gear. Shit is situational as they say; but the ACC+10 has more uses than snapshot.

lmao ok the ACC gear ill give up is the mirke replace it with something more useful like snapshot, or Stp if i using a Stp build. or both if i made my acp body like that instead...

level 80 rng have ~384 Racc naked(by naked i mean just a bow/arrow with no racc on it) where a job like sam has about 339 acc when naked(this time i mean just a GK with no acc on it), that is 45 more acc then the same next to you or ~22.5% high hit rate naked,

the avg rng could give up a 7k ring +11 racc for +5 ratk, or give up +10 racc for a 1-3% inc to attack speed, hmm so hard to pick what would a melee cheose
+5 att vs 2%haste acc+1...

Armant, on 10 July 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

How is this debate off topic? He wants to ask if STP is acceptable on RNG(Which it is). Why do you want STP--To weaponskill quicker. What does snapshot do? I assume he wants an optimal Mirke; I am merely suggesting that snapshot isnt all its cracked up to be; to the point of where not only is ACC+10 a similar increase to DPS, but in a lot of situations its a greater increase.

the OP wanted to know if Stp is worth it to a rng Banter in his own way said if it get you a 5(or 6) hit biuld, i tried to explain that more. (if im not mistake i believe he is a fan of snap/stp+ for the 5/6 build)

then you rant about how you dont like Snapshot and call everyone wrong with your blatant miss truths.

here is the fact if you not shooting your bow/gun/xbow then your Racc is usless as well and your Ratck and you as a rng ,I really can not think of a place where i would come rng and not be spamming arrows where i would need a tp biuld, unless the tank need to build hate. feel free to enlighten me when you go to a merit/exp/ls event/ bcnm/ect where as a rng your not using /ra (that isn't a Kclub/gun build)

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 11 July 2010 - 11:55 AM

[Armant]

1. Acc DOES vary by TP for sidewinder. I also like how you chose a static ftp multiplier weaponskill for a guide you labled "all DD here is Stp 101 w/reamer"; then claim that I am wrong when you're clearly the person who doesnt know what hes talking about. I simply claimed that you were giving vague; and in this case wrong information.

2. Snap shot is only better than the Racc IF you are firing 100% of the time. Spamming arrows is good; great even. But snapshot is only good on paper. Guess what; unless you are sitting and being attentive 100% of the time for every event(hello to you 4hr dynamis') you are not utilizing snapshot to the fullest, which is only a 3-4% increase in the first place. This is when Racc starts to catch up snapshot; and in a lot of places surpasses it.

There are things such as kited fights; which RNG excels at compared to other DD. Once again snapshot is not being utilized.

3. The point of Racc on the body is to not have to use Pot-au-feu. Eat hellsteak or something similar. Also every mob we fight is pink and squishy right?

4. Are you trying to compare haste to snapshot? As soon as snapshot can reach 50% or higher values we can talk about which is better.

All your arguments are hey people have told me which is better and they have math to prove the point! You know realize math will only prove which is better in a vacuum right? As soon as you enter the human variable, it all gets skewed. Now this is normally fine; but ranged attacks have a lot more disadvantage when it comes to human input errors. You can go ahead and ask anyone if they ever parse similarly to what they theoretically should be. If they say anything other than no; they're lying.

[pathwriter]

Who the fuck gets a Mirke Wardecors to be bored in Dynamis for 4 hours? People trying to downplay Snapshot keep deliberately choosing events that you probably shouldn't be playing Ranger at. If I take Ranger to Dynamis, I put on my MND gear and use Holy Bolts because they're cheap, Enmity becomes a non-issue, and I can screw off because I really don't care. For things that matter, like Abyssea or VNMs, then I use real weapons and take full advantage of my gear.

[Armant]

pathwriter, on 13 July 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Who the fuck gets a Mirke Wardecors to be bored in Dynamis for 4 hours? People trying to downplay Snapshot keep deliberately choosing events that you probably shouldn't be playing Ranger at. If I take Ranger to Dynamis, I put on my MND gear and use Holy Bolts because they're cheap, Enmity becomes a non-issue, and I can screw off because I really don't care. For things that matter, like Abyssea or VNMs, then I use real weapons and take full advantage of my gear.

Events you probably shouldnt be taking ranger to? If you go with that logic; level MNK SAM or WAR and be more efficient on pretty much everything.

This post has been edited by Armant: 13 July 2010 - 08:24 PM

[Banter]

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

Events you probably shouldnt be taking ranger to? If you go with that logic; level MNK SAM or WAR and be more efficient on pretty much everything.

There's a few events (namely, the shit path listed) where RNG is pretty optimal as a DD.

[pathwriter]

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

Events you probably shouldnt be taking ranger to? If you go with that logic; level MNK SAM or WAR and be more efficient on pretty much everything.

Maybe you missed that I have Monk leveled? Ranger is my niche job that I use when appropriate. If Ranger is your first love, then you should be applying the necessary level of attention to take full advantage of Snapshot, anyhow. If Ranger is, as with me, simply a job that you use when it is appropriate to use... then you should be taking full advantage of Snapshot. If you are going to go somewhere that you are going to slack off, why do it on a job that spends copious gil to do it?

[Armant]

pathwriter, on 13 July 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

Maybe you missed that I have Monk leveled? Ranger is my niche job that I use when appropriate. If Ranger is your first love, then you should be applying the necessary level of attention to take full advantage of Snapshot, anyhow. If Ranger is, as with me, simply a job that you use when it is appropriate to use... then you should be taking full advantage of Snapshot. If you are going to go somewhere that you are going to slack off, why do it on a job that spends copious gil to do it?

I actually own a KC and outperform most jobs in most occasions. As for the higher level content where RNG starts to excel; are you once again going to tell me you wont be using the full effect of 10 ACC on them?(HNMs in most occasions), and that you are going to be using snapshot to its fullest effect 100% of the time.(Even if you use it roughly 90% of the time, it is going to make the ACC equal or outperform the Snapshot).

[pathwriter]

Oh, now I see why you're being a colossal pain. You use Kraken Club, thus you regularly do not rely on shooting for TP. I'm sure you'll tell me that at X or Y event you shoot for TP, but clearly you have your Kraken Club on the brain.

You wanna use 10 Ranged Accuracy? Knock yourself out. You've got your opinion firmly cemented in your mind and it's not so inferior an option as to warrant an argument. But Snapshot performs just fine and Ranged Accuracy is not difficult to increase elsewhere.

[Demireamer]

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 03:44 PM, said:

1. Acc DOES vary by TP for sidewinder. I also like how you chose a static ftp multiplier weaponskill for a guide you labled "all DD here is Stp 101 w/reamer"; then claim that I am wrong when you're clearly the person who doesnt know what hes talking about. I simply claimed that you were giving vague; and in this case wrong information.

once agien my english isn't that great and it is general infor for tp spams.... and i gave no wrong info

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 03:44 PM, said:

2. Snap shot is only better than the Racc IF you are firing 100% of the time. Spamming arrows is good; great even. But snapshot is only good on paper. Guess what; unless you are sitting and being attentive 100% of the time for every event(hello to you 4hr dynamis') you are not utilizing snapshot to the fullest, which is only a 3-4% increase in the first place. This is when Racc starts to catch up snapshot; and in a lot of places surpasses it.

There are things such as kited fights; which RNG excels at compared to other DD. Once again snapshot is not being utilized.

realy cuz i spam arrows in about 50% of th kiting fights i do, and that make up about 5%of the events so shooting arrows 100% of the time about 95% is great, but for that at most 5% of the time that your not it what you should grear for that is smart. rng is dynamis /cry i spend over 100k doing that some times /cry

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 03:44 PM, said:

3. The point of Racc on the body is to not have to use Pot-au-feu. Eat hellsteak or something similar. Also every mob we fight is pink and squishy right?

hmm i still cap acc with out pot on many mobs and +10 in no way replace that food when it is needed

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 03:44 PM, said:

4. Are you trying to compare haste to snapshot? As soon as snapshot can reach 50% or higher values we can talk about which is better.

umm snap works like haste in the fact it lowers att time, we all know it dosnt work as well but it still dose.

Armant, on 13 July 2010 - 03:44 PM, said:

All your arguments are hey people have told me which is better and they have math to prove the point! You know realize math will only prove which is better in a vacuum right? As soon as you enter the human variable, it all gets skewed. Now this is normally fine; but ranged attacks have a lot more disadvantage when it comes to human input errors. You can go ahead and ask anyone if they ever parse similarly to what they theoretically should be. If they say anything other than no; they're lying.

LOL stupid gravity and friction getting in the way on FFXI you have any clue what your saying? you know prof in vaccun is mostly a physics thing ya?

and as far as your mnk.war sam coment i out parse most MNK and WAR and many sam, you have a kclub so snapshot is useless to you and you probly pass on racc as well and ef POT why would you use that? kclub rng is play very difrent so its very clear why your so clueless

and as pathwriter said "You've got your opinion firmly cemented in your mind and it's not so inferior an option as to warrant an argument" so good day

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 14 July 2010 - 09:01 AM

[Armant]

Yes you did give wrong information. Here Ill quote you to refresh your memory.

Demireamer, on 14 July 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:

ok when you WS you loss all your tp not just 100%
so any tp over 100% is useless until you get 200%

While you cant really quantify it on slugwinder, you can on other weaponskills such as detonator.


What kited fights are you in that allows you to spam arrows? Also once you pull hate; you are (surprisingly?) not utilizing snapshot.

I would also love to know which events you go to where 1. You choose RNG over another DD. 2. You can cap ACC eating meat.

Yes snapshot works like haste; but it doesn't have NEARLY the effect haste has on melee damage.

Are you really going to argue semantics in a ffxi debate? Yes a vacuum means devoid of matter. However you can apply that idea to mathematics when you eliminate outside factors. Lag, ping, human error; all of these have no place in ffxi math because they are impossible to calculate with any accuracy. If you want to argue semantics with me maybe Ill ask you to get an English spell checker. You seem intelligent enough to use it; just lazy enough not to bother.

Snapshot works like haste; yes. Is it as potent as haste; not by a mile. Stop acting like it is. I would still love to know which mobs you bother to bring RNG on that you can cap out ACC on without requiring sushi or pot-au-feu.

I doubt you'd outparse a MNK WAR or SAM when you both have similar support. You want to know why? Because they can all abuse haste, which only a RNG with a KC can do. A shooting RNG will never outparse a similarly geared/skilled melee worth a damn. Sure we can do respectable damage, but our niche is being able to do damage outside of AoE range. Im also not bashing RNG, its my favorite job and I will continue to use it.

And while yes, I do own a KC and use it, I don't see why that nullifies and you feel you can dismiss my points.

[Spider-Dan]

Your argument that lack of auto-ranged immediately devalues Snapshot bonuses is misguided at best. Is Haste 100% efficient? Do players autotarget from mob to mob, all neatly staged in a line so that you are always within melee range? Of course not. Yet I doubt you would say that Haste (for melees) is "overstated," or that "it's only better than ACC if you are engaged and in melee range 100% of the time." Will 100% of Snapshot's delay reduction directly translate into a corresponding increase in number of shots fired? No, but the same can be said of Haste. The point is that more Snapshot makes you shoot faster, period. The actual net number of shots fired does not need to perfectly correspond to the Snapshot increase in order to see a benefit.

On a side note, when talking of Store TP and x-hit builds (particularly for RNG), I think it's perfectly valid to say that any TP over 100 is wasted when you fire a WS. Context matters, and we aren't talking about waiting until 180 TP for accuracy reasons; we're talking about firing at 114 TP instead of 101.

[Demireamer]

thank you Spider-Dan i feel you simplified what i was trying to say. /bow

and Armant i out dmg both wars and mnk cuz i hit harder on both normal ranged attacks and WS then them, many sams out parser me cuz i cant keep up with there ws and overwhelm. as far as melee only sams and other rng out parser me.

and if i had a kclub i would use it to Kculb biuld can do crazy dmg, but ihave also out dmg a Kclub rng who had no clue what he was doing, so its not the end all of rng dmg

(a bit off topic but i for see the OA2-3 15dmg spitefire out damaging everything but it will be a super gilltoss)

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 14 July 2010 - 07:05 PM

[Armant]

Im not devaluing Snapshot going from mob to mob; Im devaluing it mid fight. Auto melee attacks aren't effected by outside factors such as lag or human error; ranged attacks are. Im arguing that the haste that Snapshot+5 grants ranged attacks, is in actuality much smaller than most people believe; and that in uncapped ACC situations, 10 ACC is often better.


As for Demireamer outparsing melee. You had better be hitting and weaponskilling harder; RNG has 30 base damage over the next closest DD and a 5.1 ftp weaponskill. Our weakness is that we do not benefit from haste like other jobs can. Assuming equal gear/buffs/skill/play style the more haste a melee gets the further away it pulls from RNG.