[Spider-Dan]

Armant, on 14 July 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:

Im not devaluing Snapshot going from mob to mob; Im devaluing it mid fight.

And why is that? RNGs don't have to run from mob to mob, so surely that increases Snapshot's value relative to Haste, right?

Quote

Auto melee attacks aren't effected by outside factors such as lag or human error; ranged attacks are.

Time to engage the next mob is not an outside factor? Lining your character up so that you autotarget the next mob (or failing to perform this action) is not human error?

[Armant]

Spider-Dan, on 15 July 2010 - 08:28 AM, said:

And why is that? RNGs don't have to run from mob to mob, so surely that increases Snapshot's value relative to Haste, right?


Time to engage the next mob is not an outside factor? Lining your character up so that you autotarget the next mob (or failing to perform this action) is not human error?

In merit type situations, yes RNG does get a 'engaging' time benefit. However because the engaging time is going to be a static number(In the sense that it is not a variable controlled by total fight time), it loses its luster in extended fights, which is generally where RNG excels.

This engage time also does not enhance snapshot, it in essence diminishes hastes. Which should still mean that snapshot+5 value is often less than ACC+10s.

[pathwriter]

You know, what I cannot figure out is why you hate Pot-au-Feu so much. I mean, that's largely the crux of your argument. Moreover, I don't see how your argument makes any sense in that perspective, anyhow. 10 Accuracy is not a replacement for Pot-au-Feu, not by a long shot, and if you're planning to pile Ranged Accuracy on via gear so that you can use your Attack-based food, then you're not putting Ranged Attack gear on and, thus, you're probably coming out exactly in the same place you'd have been if you'd just shut up and listen to us, except we're shooting faster because of Snapshot.

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 15 July 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

You know, what I cannot figure out is why you hate Pot-au-Feu so much. I mean, that's largely the crux of your argument. Moreover, I don't see how your argument makes any sense in that perspective, anyhow. 10 Accuracy is not a replacement for Pot-au-Feu, not by a long shot, and if you're planning to pile Ranged Accuracy on via gear so that you can use your Attack-based food, then you're not putting Ranged Attack gear on and, thus, you're probably coming out exactly in the same place you'd have been if you'd just shut up and listen to us, except we're shooting faster because of Snapshot.

Nah bro cuz snpshot is no god acuz u error

[Spider-Dan]

pathwriter, on 15 July 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

You know, what I cannot figure out is why you hate Pot-au-Feu so much. I mean, that's largely the crux of your argument. Moreover, I don't see how your argument makes any sense in that perspective, anyhow. 10 Accuracy is not a replacement for Pot-au-Feu, not by a long shot, and if you're planning to pile Ranged Accuracy on via gear so that you can use your Attack-based food, then you're not putting Ranged Attack gear on and, thus, you're probably coming out exactly in the same place you'd have been if you'd just shut up and listen to us, except we're shooting faster because of Snapshot.

Yeah, this really highlights the absurdity of the argument.

RNG A has STR/WSACC/Snapshot Anwig, RATK/Snapshot Mirke, and pot-au-feu.
RNG B has STR/WSACC/RACC/RATK Anwig, RATK/RACC Mirke, and yellow curry bun.

Does anyone on the planet think that RNG B would win this contest?

[Demireamer]

its wierd Armant argument at this point just seem to the rng going to suck so the snapshot will not be as useful. but most rng (more so the ones that want to go to event endgame as RNG) seem to be on there game, so it realy weird to argue the person playing RNG is going to suck at his job. when looking for the best biuld, you would think a person tring to make the best biuld would not factor in how crapy they are at playing the job.

but ya if you wana a make the best set for someone who not good at being a ranger go at it Armant, but i think for na idea set you have to figer the rng going to be on his game

i just think its relay wierd.

ATM you can get Snap on 3 armor slots Head/body/waist there all about ?5%? (yes i know some people think the mirke is 10 and so people say the others are 3 but ya go with it the 15/16 stp) we get 10% from merits 15% from Velocity Shot, that is about 40% so a spitfire is about 2.4 second faster, a siege bow is about 1.9 sec faster, so we get an extras shot in about ever 4 shots using snapshot why would you not want that? more so with equipment that already has Racc/Ratt on it for the most part, so weird, maybe just a really good troll?

[Armant]

pathwriter, on 15 July 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

You know, what I cannot figure out is why you hate Pot-au-Feu so much. I mean, that's largely the crux of your argument. Moreover, I don't see how your argument makes any sense in that perspective, anyhow. 10 Accuracy is not a replacement for Pot-au-Feu, not by a long shot, and if you're planning to pile Ranged Accuracy on via gear so that you can use your Attack-based food, then you're not putting Ranged Attack gear on and, thus, you're probably coming out exactly in the same place you'd have been if you'd just shut up and listen to us, except we're shooting faster because of Snapshot.

The problem(Not really a problem) with pot-au-feu is that we put a large portion of that ACC+ to no use now. Yes it should cap your accuracy out on pretty much anything, but its overkill in most situations. With the addition of level 80, we gain roughly 40 ACC(assuming you cap your skills) from our 75 counterparts.

Ill be clear here in case I haven't been. In capped Accuracy situations, ANYTHING is better than more accuracy. Also snapshot is a good stat to have, but mirke is the only item where snapshot may not be the best available stat for the slot. Barbut is still the #1 TP piece even if it didn't have snapshot on it.

I am saying that snapshot+5 is roughly 2-3% attack speed increase. ACC+10 is a,(assuming it follows melee hit rate forumla, which we cant say for sure or at least Ive never seen any data proving it does) 5% hit rate increase.

Ill go with the spitfire. High delay weapon considered one of the best for /ra'ing. Im not sure if Velocity shot is additive to snapshot or multiplicative. Ill do both just incase. With barbut and mirke being the only sources of snapshot in addition to 5/5 merits.

Spitfire 660 delay

Barbut: 3%
Merits: 10%

Mirke 5%

With snapshot Mirke:

Multiplicative V.Shot:
[660 * (1-0.18)(1-0.15)]/110 + 2.8 = 7.0s per shot. Roughly 21% faster than 0 snapshot gear.

Additive V.Shot:
[660 * (1-0.33)]/110] + 2.8 = 6.8s per shot. Roughly 23% faster than 0 snapshot gear.

Without Mirke:

Multiplicative V.Shot:
[660 * (1-0.13)(1-0.15)]/110 + 2.8 = 7.2s per shot. Roughly 18% faster than 0 snapshot gear. A difference of 3%.

Additive V.Shot:
[660 * (1-0.28)]/110] + 2.8 = 7.1s per shot. Roughly 19% faster than 0 snapshot gear. A difference of 4%.


Now assuming Ranged attacks follow the same ACC formula that melee attacks use:

Without ACC+10: hitrate = 90%
With ACC+10: Hitrate = 95%.

Assuming you get full use out of the 10 ACC:

In 60 minutes of constant shooting snapshot mirke will have shot 530 times, with 90% ACC it will have landed 477 shots.
In 60 minutes of constant shooting ACC mirke will have shot 507 times, with 95% ACC it will have landed 481 shots.

So assuming the 10 ACC is utilized ACC wins.

But of course you'll be using pot-au-feu so you'll have capped ACC as well.

In 60 minutes of constant shooting snapshot mirke will have shot 530 times, with 95% ACC it will have landed 503 shots.

Now the question is does a hellsteak build hit 4% harder than a pot-au-feu build? Without any concrete numbers I cant say for sure; but Im fairly confident it does.





Yes I realize my meat build is at 95% ACC; but at level 80 it will on instanced events. HNMs on the other hand if you can give me concrete numbers I can try my best to math it out. Im not very good at mathology, but I think I ran the numbers right. Feel free to correct me although Im sure you'd all love the chance to.

This post has been edited by Armant: 15 July 2010 - 11:13 PM

[pathwriter]

Armant, on 15 July 2010 - 11:11 PM, said:

With the addition of level 80, we gain roughly 40 ACC(assuming you cap your skills) from our 75 counterparts.

This is only true if you're still fighting Greater Colibri. Yes, we suffer less of a level correction against, I dunno, Fafnir, but who really considers Fafnir a relevant target anymore? We're gaining plenty of Accuracy against VNMs, to the point that Accuracy food of any sort may no longer be necessary. Against Abyssea targets, which are what I'd assume anyone with half a brain should be looking towards or doing, level correction advantages quickly go straight out the window and, since mobs gain Evasion Skill same as we gain weapon skill, at the end of the day, we're no better off when fighting mobs that are 6-10 levels higher than us. I mean, if you want to gear around killing Greater Colibri at level 80, rock on, but you won't be needing Ranged Accuracy for that, either.

Seriously, though, your argument is dull. You want to believe that firing arrows faster is somehow wrong because it isn't as beneficial as braindead auto-attacking. Ok, no one agrees with you. Moving on.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't understand how the argument of "RNG doesn't need pot-au-feu at 80 because of all the extra accuracy" squares with the argument of "You'd better get RACC augment instead of Snapshot augment because RNG needs all the RACC it can get."

Are we desperately starving for RACC (to the point where Snapshot augment cannot compete, as a whole, with RACC) or is it a throwaway stat (because we're probably already at the cap)? Make up your mind.

[Armant]

I am once again stating: If you can fully use the ACC+10 augment, it is better than Snapshot+5. If the ACC+10 is not giving you +5% hit rate, no it is not better than snapshot. That is all I am simply arguing. Yes we no longer target Colibri at level 80, but we still do a whole lot of events that we did at 75. Dynamis, limbus, sea, sky, einherjar; people still do these events every day. You can happily pick the one event where we may not be capping ACC from gear alone, and still will the ACC build not only be a contender, but in a lot of cases still better.

The only assumption I am using is that it is possible to cap accuracy from gear alone; gear you would not bother to use while you're eating pot-au-feu.

Should I inform you that the earth revolves around the sun as well?

[Demireamer]

i never put a dumb image up before

and going ageist my own advise you can cap acc with gear with/out +10 on the body

This post has been edited by Demireamer: 16 July 2010 - 09:14 AM