[Tikki]

Kaslo, on 24 June 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

Till you get hit, then its worthless.

Or maybe one day DD will learn how to ride the line and not rip hate instead of rely on utsu 100% of the time.

[pathwriter]

It's not a DD problem so much as a tank problem and, even then, it's a tank problem related as much to their own sturdiness as anything else. Holding back means that a melee dependent job, such as Monk, has to literally turn around for a while. For a WS dependent job, like Samurai but which also sort of describes Blue Mage's playstyle, you end up with hundreds of wasted TP or a full bar of MP that is barely getting used. Saying, "Toe the line," is sort of like saying, "There'd be fewer crashes in NASCAR if they all drove slower."

[Kaslo]

Who uses a tank anymore in a place you would be DDing not against a boss-type mob?

[Viron]

Kaslo, on 24 June 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

Till you get hit, then its worthless.

My thoughts exactly.

[Kimjongil76]

In all fairness. using /nin for shadows for most events including exp is worthless. In my play style I use all the tools I have and most of the time even at 80 update go with blu/sch.

I really dont care if I get hit. I have drain with 300 dark magic skill. I can pull off 250-300 drains for less then 20 mp. This alone can put me on par or ahead of a blu/nin. I also can dispel if needed, aspir for 250-300.

You can use teh drain and aspir every 30 seconds if you use sch JA's. I also dont have to rely on any mage to cure me if poisened, paralized or so on. I have Z mantle, cocoon, Genbu shield and other such things. And with a multi hit sword, again your on par with duel weilders anyway.

/nin does not give MP. MP is a blu's lifeline. Sch can store it through subligation, and also has its own refresh. We have access to more sppells with blu/sch then any job combo in the game. As we have potentail to be on par dealing dmg with most DD's non zerg.

I can safely move away from /nin sub permenity with the tools i have now.

[Tikki]

Do any blu still use /thf? You know, sata a nice physical spell to plant your hate on someone else? Or does this require thinking again.

Also, Path, in other MMOs I play, we tend to say 'dead dps is no dps'

This post has been edited by Tikki: 24 June 2010 - 10:23 PM

[pathwriter]

Tikki, on 24 June 2010 - 10:22 PM, said:

Also, Path, in other MMOs I play, we tend to say 'dead dps is no dps'

I'm just going to assume you're talking about WoW, but given any MMO released in the past ~5 years is a WoW clone, I'm sure this applies: DPS in FFXI has excessively out-stripped the capabilities of tanks to retain aggro and mobs have been super-scaled to the point that even tanks are incapable of taking more than a few hits before dying. Hell, have you heard about the new Qutrub NM in Abyssea? It wanders around invisible, only appears when someone blood-aggros it, and its opening move does over 3000 damage (I think it ignores Utsusemi, too, it's basically a big fuck you button). At no point in this absurd model of super-powered DDs and wet-tissue-paper defensiveness is something that can be treated sensibly. If you want to take 90 minutes to tickle an HNM to death, not only are you being grossly inefficient, but you're probably taking huge risks with your tank(s) and their ability to survive the onslaught.

There is one and exactly one DD that can pretty much afford to go balls-out at all times with no drawbacks and that's Dragoon. Everyone else is going to either huddle behind Utsusemi, rely on native defensive capabilities (Counterstance and Seigan), or be forced to play the Black Mage game of doing damage once a minute. If a Blue Mage isn't tempting the hate threshold of the tank, replace him.

[Tikki]

pathwriter, on 24 June 2010 - 10:59 PM, said:

I'm just going to assume you're talking about WoW, but given any MMO released in the past ~5 years is a WoW clone, I'm sure this applies: DPS in FFXI has excessively out-stripped the capabilities of tanks to retain aggro and mobs have been super-scaled to the point that even tanks are incapable of taking more than a few hits before dying. Hell, have you heard about the new Qutrub NM in Abyssea? It wanders around invisible, only appears when someone blood-aggros it, and its opening move does over 3000 damage (I think it ignores Utsusemi, too, it's basically a big fuck you button). At no point in this absurd model of super-powered DDs and wet-tissue-paper defensiveness is something that can be treated sensibly. If you want to take 90 minutes to tickle an HNM to death, not only are you being grossly inefficient, but you're probably taking huge risks with your tank(s) and their ability to survive the onslaught.

There is one and exactly one DD that can pretty much afford to go balls-out at all times with no drawbacks and that's Dragoon. Everyone else is going to either huddle behind Utsusemi, rely on native defensive capabilities (Counterstance and Seigan), or be forced to play the Black Mage game of doing damage once a minute. If a Blue Mage isn't tempting the hate threshold of the tank, replace him.

Tempting the hate threshold is exactly what I meant in the first place ffs. I thought you read better than this. Really I did. And sure, I've played WoW and I'll say what I say to everyone, it's entirely too fucking easy. But I also play or have played WAR, EVE, DAoC, AO, AA, and let's go to where I started back in '99, EverQuest where I was one of my endgame guild's better tanks up till I retired fully around '05ish. Being the primary backup (technically secondary but really... our primary was often dead before the main tank, the retard), I learned a thing or two myself about riding the hate line. And yes, it was possible for DPS to pass the tanks even there, they learned to ride the line or they died.


ps: as for go all out with no drawbacks, try a SMN some time. My damage may only be every 45 seconds, but it's nice damage. And I can play support in between if needed.

[pathwriter]

In 8 years of FFXI, I've learned that "riding" the hate line is a waste of my time. I tend to tank more effectively than whomever thinks he showed up to tank, so I plan accordingly. Pussy-footing on the backline for no clear purpose isn't worth it when I can throw on Utsusemi and make the mob die faster at the same time. It's not remotely difficult for a properly-equipped DD to stomp all over a tank's Enmity in this game whose sense of balance was destroyed years ago, so suggesting that it is better to suck and not need Utsusemi, especially for a tank-capable job like Blue Mage, is disingenuous nonsense. SE can either make tanks better or obsolete them entirely. Somehow they seem to be trying both at the same time (Paladin being made into a juggernaut, Ninja being neutered) and failing in each.

[fyreus]

I'm sure my blu can line up enough regurgitations and disservement+cold wave or even autoattacks to do what smn does every 45secs while going all out >_> and allow me to play support if needed. One of them can have less hate than activating a BP iirc.

On another note i'd like to tell the guy with all the tools that on something that you'll be abusing stuff like that on, you will probably be gaining a heck of alot of unneeded CE and VE when the time it takes to do that drain, i can use 16mp to do close to that amount of damage and with shadows, save a good 1k+dmg taken while lowering my hate and prevent becomming a sponge or a DeadPS. There's nothing wrong with trying something new, but sometimes the old beaten path is the most reliable path. The problem here is that blu CAN get some freakin' high hate.

Now that /rdm spells has bit the dust, we're pretty much second in line for high CE/VE hate tools and have many gears that support tanking. Watch more blu tanks come from out the woodwork lol.

[Draxk]

don't forget the sup earring adds bonus to dual wield trait, if you don't have the trait the bonus does nothing

[rambus]

pathwriter, on 24 June 2010 - 10:59 PM, said:

I'm just going to assume you're talking about WoW, but given any MMO released in the past ~5 years is a WoW clone, I'm sure this applies: DPS in FFXI has excessively out-stripped the capabilities of tanks to retain aggro and mobs have been super-scaled to the point that even tanks are incapable of taking more than a few hits before dying. Hell, have you heard about the new Qutrub NM in Abyssea? It wanders around invisible, only appears when someone blood-aggros it, and its opening move does over 3000 damage (I think it ignores Utsusemi, too, it's basically a big fuck you button). At no point in this absurd model of super-powered DDs and wet-tissue-paper defensiveness is something that can be treated sensibly. If you want to take 90 minutes to tickle an HNM to death, not only are you being grossly inefficient, but you're probably taking huge risks with your tank(s) and their ability to survive the onslaught.

There is one and exactly one DD that can pretty much afford to go balls-out at all times with no drawbacks and that's Dragoon. Everyone else is going to either huddle behind Utsusemi, rely on native defensive capabilities (Counterstance and Seigan), or be forced to play the Black Mage game of doing damage once a minute. If a Blue Mage isn't tempting the hate threshold of the tank, replace him.

why people forget about SCH in lines like that? and the fact if you are nuking once a minute a SCH will walk over a BLM in that.

pathwriter, on 25 June 2010 - 12:17 PM, said:

In 8 years of FFXI, I've learned that "riding" the hate line is a waste of my time. I tend to tank more effectively than whomever thinks he showed up to tank, so I plan accordingly. Pussy-footing on the backline for no clear purpose isn't worth it when I can throw on Utsusemi and make the mob die faster at the same time. It's not remotely difficult for a properly-equipped DD to stomp all over a tank's Enmity in this game whose sense of balance was destroyed years ago, so suggesting that it is better to suck and not need Utsusemi, especially for a tank-capable job like Blue Mage, is disingenuous nonsense. SE can either make tanks better or obsolete them entirely. Somehow they seem to be trying both at the same time (Paladin being made into a juggernaut, Ninja being neutered) and failing in each.

cuz SE fails lol

This post has been edited by rambus: 07 July 2010 - 12:03 AM

[kenshyn]

Tikki, on 24 June 2010 - 10:22 PM, said:

Do any blu still use /thf? You know, sata a nice physical spell to plant your hate on someone else? Or does this require thinking again.

Also, Path, in other MMOs I play, we tend to say 'dead dps is no dps'

I missed /thf so much last night in abyssea man many spells kind of sucked we faced a few NM mobs where we had to run in and out and not feed tp damn I would have loved to have stayed at range SA+TA+ cannonballing my ass off.