[Wildstriker]

I am not advocating anything, but I want to start a new debate.

First off, I am not responding to anyone that goes "BUT FULL USU TOOK ME YEARS TO GET QQ".

Ok, so as a reminder to for people, full Usukane provides these as bonuses:

Set Summary

* Defense +132
* STR +16
* DEX +13
* AGI +3
* INT +8
* Accuracy +36
* Evasion +29
* Attack +17
* Haste +8%
* "Store TP" +13
* "Subtle Blow" +5
* "Counter" +2
* Enmity +5
* Set: Enhances Haste effect (Adds 5% to total Haste 13%)


Now, here are the items for the new mix and match set:
Brisk Mask
Juogi +1
Ocelot Gloves
Byakko's Haidate
Usukane Sune-ate

New Mix and Match summary:
Accuracy +29
Dex +19
Store TP +11
Att +13
Crit +4
DA +5

Not going to bother listing stuff like AGI, since I already know full Usu is much better defensively.
This new set brings monk to 26% haste, which means it has an advantage in that it allows one to reach true gear haste cape without sacrificing either a ring or neck slot, thus it technically would have even more Accuracy and/or Attack depending on what you wear.

I am not looking to piss off any Monks who managed to get full Usukane. And I am also aware SE might update Magians for Usukane in the future, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do calculations for this stuff now.

This post has been edited by Wildstriker: 24 June 2010 - 09:36 AM

[Banter]

Looking at the mats for Juogi, it's most likely going to be similar in price to synth as it would be to buy ingots for Usukane body. No one here should go and get their hopes up that they don't have to do salvage anymore, it's still the best stuff available for the most part.

[Wildstriker]

Banter, on 24 June 2010 - 09:59 AM, said:

Looking at the mats for Juogi, it's most likely going to be similar in price to synth as it would be to buy ingots for Usukane body. No one here should go and get their hopes up that they don't have to do salvage anymore, it's still the best stuff available for the most part.

This isn't a "should I still do Salvage debate". Also, no one should suffer any delusions that this new stuff is going to be easy to get, because it's not.

[Aleera]

It's still new, so of course the prices will be ridiculously high right off the bat. Once things settle down, I'm sure the price vs. usukane body will drop significantly, the only advantage this has is that you don't need to wait forever in salvage for pieces to drop. As a comparison to usu itself, I'd say it's a pretty nice alternative. I wonder how the crit stacks up with destroyers making it feasible to create a better crit build on MNK.

[pathwriter]

Honestly, an Usukane Monk shouldn't be wasting his time on Tiercel Necklace, especially not when Faith Torque will bump a merited level 80 Monk up a point of base Damage. That "1%" Haste only amounts to something like .3% Haste.

What I see missing are a lot of STR and some Attack. We don't typically value it very highly, but that's because we could regularly get it elsewhere. Also, Juogi is a rather lackluster weaponskill item. It offers no stat mods and both Critical Hit Rate and Double Attack are useless for our bread-and-butter weaponskill. Of course, one can easily supplement with Kirin's Osode or Shura Togi, among other things, but Usukane Haramaki does just fine on its own as a weaponskill piece.

Personally, points go to full Usukane for me. These new items are nice supplements, but they're not really changing things in a big way. If we assume that Juogi is likely to be mostly NQ, in rather the same way that we expect Kyodogi to be NQ, we're really just looking at a little sidegrade piece. Ocelot Gloves (and the other pair of Haste gloves) are a nice addition to the Monk arsenal, especially for those of us tied to our Haste +2% shoes, and Brisk Mask will help fill in the related gaps (though I question how much Accuracy we need at 80), but the set as a whole is not revolutionary. Moreover, although I suspect Juogi should not be too difficult to acquire one way or another, at least in that I'm hoping SE hasn't done to it what they did to Kyudogi when it was introduced, we may not enjoy figuring out where Ocelot Gloves and Brisk Mask come from.

Oh, and both Brisk Mask and Ocelot Gloves are uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugly. Just sayin'.

[Banter]

Aleera, on 24 June 2010 - 10:35 AM, said:

It's still new, so of course the prices will be ridiculously high right off the bat. Once things settle down, I'm sure the price vs. usukane body will drop significantly, the only advantage this has is that you don't need to wait forever in salvage for pieces to drop. As a comparison to usu itself, I'd say it's a pretty nice alternative. I wonder how the crit stacks up with destroyers making it feasible to create a better crit build on MNK.

Well, it already has Cashmere cloth in the synth, which is going not going to come down in price at all. Also, Destroyers are pretty much obsolete now, go do your magians.

[Cream Soda]

New mix/match is better, but not by enough for me to shell out w/e the price is on Judogi+1. Close enough to say that the double attack is the deal breaker. on the mix/match being better. Also, they said they were going to add armor soon to magians, so I wouldn't exclude usu just yet.

Though, I'm looking into trying the occ attack 2-3 h2h w/ footwork, that's been mathed to do better than any current h2h aside from spharai, so my mix/match may require usu body for xhit anyways (not to mention the huge decrease in efficiency from double attack+ on a 2-3 weapon.

[Cream Soda]

Quote

Honestly, an Usukane Monk shouldn't be wasting his time on Tiercel Necklace, especially not when Faith Torque will bump a merited level 80 Monk up a point of base Damage. That "1%" Haste only amounts to something like .3% Haste.

Even if faith torque didn't bump up your h2h, I'd use justice torque and get an fstr up (if not capped) before using Tiercel, lol

[pathwriter]

Cream Soda, on 24 June 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Even if faith torque didn't bump up your h2h, I'd use justice torque and get an fstr up (if not capped) before using Tiercel, lol

I agree, but when people start talking about things like Blitz Ring for an Apocalypse Dark Knight, they tend to forget that the value of Haste in that situation is a bit different, etc. etc.

For myself, I'd rather drop an Accuracy ring for a Flame (or, better yet, Strigoi) Ring and keep the Faith Torque on, damage tier or no damage tier.

[Aleera]

Banter, on 24 June 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well, it already has Cashmere cloth in the synth, which is going not going to come down in price at all. Also, Destroyers are pretty much obsolete now, go do your magians.

I haven't touched MNK in years, but I'm doing a couple different H2H's for PUP, one of which will be Wargfangs. And Cashmere cloth is still about 1/4 the price of a Usu body (depending where/who you buy it from), so even if it doesn't go down, the other mats should over time. It will still remain a cheaper alternative to Usu body.

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 24 June 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:

I agree, but when people start talking about things like Blitz Ring for an Apocalypse Dark Knight, they tend to forget that the value of Haste in that situation is a bit different, etc. etc.

For myself, I'd rather drop an Accuracy ring for a Flame (or, better yet, Strigoi) Ring and keep the Faith Torque on, damage tier or no damage tier.

The only difference between an Apoc DRK and a MNK haste wise is hasso.

[Cream Soda]

Banter, on 25 June 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

The only difference between an Apoc DRK and a MNK haste wise is hasso.

Which is a pretty big difference

[Banter]

Yea, but there are multiple other jobs who can reach the haste cap from gear and use hasso that were excluded as well. Was trying to point that out, but failed pretty badly.

[Kyte]

Ocelot gloves are fucking hideous

[azagarth1]

Figure to ask it here since we are comparing gear. We really need a random MNK question thred though.

So right now I am wondering for my mnk what to do. I currently use okotes+fumas. Should I change to aurore gloves+enkidus feet?

Trade off would be

20 attack 3 haste for 4 attack 3 dex 4 str and 4 haste (though last 1% is fraction of .6 i think)

so basically is 16 attack better than .6 haste 4 str and 3 dex?

[Cyprias]

azagarth1, on 08 July 2010 - 12:59 PM, said:

Figure to ask it here since we are comparing gear. We really need a random MNK question thred though.

So right now I am wondering for my mnk what to do. I currently use okotes+fumas. Should I change to aurore gloves+enkidus feet?

Trade off would be

20 attack 3 haste for 4 attack 3 dex 4 str and 4 haste (though last 1% is fraction of .6 i think)

so basically is 16 attack better than .6 haste 4 str and 3 dex?

I'd say get Usukane feet and use Aurore gloves.

Really though, I think I'd use 26% haste setup, since the full haste setup is what you're looking to aim towards anyways. Pizza does wonders to supplement the Attack. Of course this depends on the rest of your gear though, because accuracy issues and not using N.kote/U.gote/Sasuke tekko may be something to consider as well.

[azagarth1]

my acc gears pretty good. Plus I have shens which has a nice 10 acc built in that most are missing. I will probably never get usu though so it is kind of not worth worrying about. I want them but if I can ever find that kind of time to start playing again...

[Banter]

azagarth1, on 08 July 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

my acc gears pretty good. Plus I have shens which has a nice 10 acc built in that most are missing. I will probably never get usu though so it is kind of not worth worrying about. I want them but if I can ever find that kind of time to start playing again...

and you wonder why people get all pissy at you because of your shenlongs

[azagarth1]

bc after i got them i stopped playing lots?

[Banter]

You didn't even have a black belt when you got them is one of the reasons, but mostly because you are a lazy player who fell into what was one of the best equips in the game.