[Hitoseijuro]

Cream Soda, on 11 July 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

Kine mathed out the juogi+1 build on alla. Only wins if your fstr and acc are both capped.

Accounting for a 65/35% ratio on DoT/WS dmg, in capped acc, we have the 3.5 and 6.2% increases to melee, which come to a 6.45% increase in total dmg. So even w/ capped acc, we have a sidegrade (mix/match winning by .4%). Acc uncapped usu wins slightly. Only time the mix/match is actually going to be at an advantage is if you're also capping attack, or capping fstr along with accuracy.

Then w/e the price of jogi+1, I'd assume it would be high, and idk the difficulty on ocealot gloves, not worth getting for anyone who has full usu, imo. As for brisk mask, going to get one anyway, as I want for my footwork build.

Edit:
Even then, a good portion of that .4%, if not all of it, is going to be negated by counters. Firstly 2% more counter via usu gloves, and the fact that w/ 4 fstr and the extra attack, your landed counters will also be dealing more damage, in which the double attack(Main reason the build can sidegrade to usu) of jogi+1 does nothing

Not to mention as I noted to Kine, that monks wont be capping attack outside of /war. So full usukane is still going to be ontop of the mix/match even with capped Fstr/acc. Thats still around a 3% + increase over mix match. As far as capping fstr on mnk I guess its dependant on race/merits and mob. Elvaan with str merits with full usukane and nice gear will have around 109-112 str. And ya, counter % is always nice to have on an already great set.

[Cream Soda]

Well of all the increases on the usu set in the comparison, fstr was by far the largest. The second you cap out str, even w/ the attack and acc, usu loses.

Basically, for mix/match to win

A) Acc AND attack capped
Str capped

If either of those two conditions are met, mix/match can pull a victory

Though if condition A is met, mix/match will win by a bit, it won't be an actual real difference until condition B is met, though it's a landslide if A and B are both met.

[Hitoseijuro]

Cream Soda, on 11 July 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

Well of all the increases on the usu set in the comparison, fstr was by far the largest. The second you cap out str, even w/ the attack and acc, usu loses.

Basically, for mix/match to win

A) Acc AND attack capped
Str capped

If either of those two conditions are met, mix/match can pull a victory

Though if condition A is met, mix/match will win by a bit, it won't be an actual real difference until condition B is met, though it's a landslide if A and B are both met.

True

And I think ppl should see while with pizza you probably should be capping acc outside of very evasive mobs, I dont see you capping fstr and definately not attack. Now to clearify what I mean by not capping fstr, the only way to cap fstr is with usukane. Since you arent capped before it, you will still get fstr out of it til it caps. Id say depending on the mob you can get 2-3fstr before capping on something with low vit. I like using elvaan as an example with full merits so you can see the higher end of the spectrum. 79 str, rajas/BB gives 12str. This puts us at 91 str, get 2 from bomblet for 93. That gives you still a good amount of room for str. Can use charger mantle when you dont need the stp/str/acc. Things like colibri require 103 str iirc to cap. So even with 3fsr thats 4.6% increase add in the 3.5%(attack) and you have 8.1% vs 6.8%. So unless you are fighting mobs weaker than exp, Usukane should be what we want to be using.

As path as said though we dont even know where/how some of these pieces are obtain, so we dont know yet if its easier to do salvage or get these pieces for ppl who dont *have* to do salvage.

This post has been edited by Hitoseijuro: 11 July 2010 - 02:15 PM

[Austar2.0]

Doesn't hand-to-hand cap fSTR much lower than other weapons?

[Motenten]

Yes, but it's still not -that- low, given that we tend to focus more on haste, acc and att for TP builds.

In generally you need +36 str over mob vit to cap fStr for H2H. Verethregna and level 80 Spharai will need +40.

Ignoring the latter two, for Greater Colibri, cap is 103 str. For Mamool Ja, cap is generally around 112. Cap will likely go up slightly for the new mobs we're fighting at 80, but I'll just look at those stats for now.

With merits, you're generally starting at between 70 and 80 str (Taru to Elvaan). Easiest is Elvaan vs Colibri, needing +23 in gear; harder is Taru vs Mammol, needing +42 in gear. We don't have the stats for me to guess at any higher vit mobs.

Given Rajas+Thew+Forager+Black Belt, that leaves a gap of +6 (Elvaan vs colibri) to +25 (Taru vs Mamool) that can be filled in standard gear.

If you use the str Taipan Fangs (+6), that means the Elvaan is capping against Greater Colibri without any main armor gear at all, and would probably do better with the Juogi set. The Taru would still need another +19 vs Mamool, so they'd be better off with the +16 str of full Usu.


* Base str numbers are rough estimates due to incomplete formulas at this time.

[Banter]

I'm late due to being on vacation, but I thought I should point out that a self proclaimed hardcore mnk still has a tiphia sting.

[azagarth1]

maybe im wrong, but woulden't PW body and setanas ledelsens be better in the mixed set?

Not to mention that both builds if using cerb+1/BB/rajas/strig/thew will have already +24 str before main armor. The attack h2h look to be reasonable to get and since we have not figured out how to get verth's its probably the most applicable h2h we can be using atm. So +30 str and thats not counting any other armor. For me I have 78 str so that places me at 108 str, so I cannot really see using all the str usu has anyhow.

if I am reading that quoted math right the difference is 1.7% between the sets, which is mostly all made up by the str. So I think its safe to say they are pretty much equal, but slight advantage to mix for when things are at the max (SV brd rotations).

[Motenten]

And since that reminded me that I needed to work on the stat calculator, and I had some time today, I went off and did that. Results:

All stats, regardless of rating, now raise at exactly the same rate. For example, the growth of a Taru's Str is the same as an Elvaan's; same for their respective Ints.

Growth rate for all ranks is 0.35 points per level for both race and job, though that value is floored before adding together. Level 76 is .35 each (floored to 0); level 77 is .7 each (floored to 0); level 78 is 1.05 each (floored to 1), which is where you see the +2 jump in stats (not counting gains from subjob).

No stat will reach +2 by level 80, so all stat growth so far is seen only at level 78, and from subjobs. Stats can be expected to increase by +2 at levels: 78, 81, 84, 87, 90, 93, 95 and 98. Final value at level 99 will be +16 per stat over level 75.


For HP, there appears to be a small bonus per level, up to +1 per level over 76. I haven't been able to isolate the variation, though, so not making any changes to the web page at this time. Just know that the real value may be a few points higher than listed.

[Cream Soda]

azagarth1, on 11 July 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

maybe im wrong, but woulden't PW body and setanas ledelsens be better in the mixed set?

Not to mention that both builds if using cerb+1/BB/rajas/strig/thew will have already +24 str before main armor. The attack h2h look to be reasonable to get and since we have not figured out how to get verth's its probably the most applicable h2h we can be using atm. So +30 str and thats not counting any other armor. For me I have 78 str so that places me at 108 str, so I cannot really see using all the str usu has anyhow.

if I am reading that quoted math right the difference is 1.7% between the sets, which is mostly all made up by the str. So I think its safe to say they are pretty much equal, but slight advantage to mix for when things are at the max (SV brd rotations).

Most of this post is only relevant if you plan on fighting greater colibri at lv 80 (and no, I don't mean synced down to 75 for exp, I mean literally fight them at lv 80)

[Motenten]

Let's say we start with

Taipan Fangs (+6)
Thew Bomblet (+2)
Rajas (+5)
Forager's (+3)
Black Belt (+7)

That's +23. If accuracy is well capped, can swap in a Strigoi for another +6 str, 29 total.

Base str for mnk/nin at 80 before merits:

Taru: 64
Hume/Mithra: 70
Galka: 73
Elvaan: 75

Add merits:

Taru: 69
Hume/Mithra: 75
Galka: 78
Elvaan: 80

With gear (sans Strigoi):

Taru: 92
Hume/Mithra: 98
Galka: 101
Elvaan: 103

Add Strigoi:

Taru: 98
Hume/Mithra: 104
Galka: 107
Elvaan: 109


Figure most mob vit will be in the 70-80 range. Str needed to cap would be 106 to 116. Per race:

Taru: 8-18
Hume/Mithra: 2-12
Galka: 0-9
Elvaan: 0-7


Full Usu gives +16 Str. That's excessive for most, with only Taru/Hume/Mithra against higher vit mobs really benefiting from it, though Elvaan and Galka can make use of it on higher vit mobs if they remove the Strigoi ring. However since the Strigoi ring was added because we were already capped on accuracy, that seems like a poor option.


Assuming we want to reach a target accuracy of 435, and pizza +1 is involved, that means base accuracy is 392. If using a Faith Torque, base accuracy from skill is 311, leaving 81 to be made up in acc + dex.

Assuming use of Byakko's Haidate + Rajas for 20 dex, and base dex of: 73 (Hume/Taru/Galka), 70 (Elvaan) or 80 (Mithra), that's 45-46-50 acc in dex, leaving 30 to 35 in gear accuracy needed.

Since there is no accuracy in any slots thus far, it all has to be added from ear/head/body/hands/feet.

Body options include:
Hachiryu (20 acc)
Usu body (16 acc)
Juogi (15 acc)
ACP body (12 acc)
Shura (10 acc)

Taru can make use of the full str of Usu or ACP bodies. On low-vit mobs, other races won't make use of the str, but on high-vit mobs they can.

With Shura we need another 20-25 accuracy; with Juogi we need another 15-20 accuracy.

Using Brisk Mask for head leaves us needing 14-19 acc with Shura, 9-14 with Juogi. We're also at 21% haste now.

Ocelot gloves + Usu feet would take us to fully capped haste, and give 9 accuracy. With Hachiryu, everyone is capped on acc. With Juogi or Usu body, Mithra are capped, others are about 5 accuracy short. With Shura, they're 5 to 10 accuracy short of cap.

Another 4 acc can be added with a Hollow Earring, putting everyone pretty much at cap with Juogi/Usu, and leaving most at ~5 acc shy with Shura.

Attack: 324+8+16+10+6+3+15 = 382 + 104/2 (hume) = 434 + body

Total attack (hume):
Hachiryu: 454
Usu body: 438
Juogi: 434
ACP body: 446
Shura: 454



For just the 2 fStr on Usu body (if you can make use of it), that's about +3% melee damage. 4 Attack is maybe another 1%. Juogi's DA is about 3.5% to total damage. 8 dex vs 3% crit rate comes out to 2% crit rate in favor of Juogi, for perhaps 1.5% melee damage, or 1% total damage.

Overall Juogi would then be ~4.5% for DA+Crit vs ~3.5% for Str+Dex+acc on Usu.

For most races on low vit mobs, Juogi should handily win. For Taru, it should always be close. For all races on high vit mobs it should always be close.






Alternate config:

thunder path Taipan Fangs (+6 dex, +16 acc)

Need 392 total accuracy. 311 from skill leaves 81.

Taipan Fangs
Brisk mask
Usu/Juogi body
Ocelot gloves
Usu legs
Fumas (or Usu for 7 att + 7 STP vs 1% haste; usu probably better)
Aesir earring

Haste: 12+3+3+3+4 = 25% (not full cap)

w/Usu body:
Dex: 6+8+4+5 = +23
Acc: 16+6+12 = +34
Total dex: 93-103
Total acc: 80-85 (cap for all but Elvaan, who are 1 acc below cap)
Str: 2+8+5+6+3+7+5 = +36
Needed str: 37-47 for Taru, 26-36 for Elvaan

Attack: 324+8+10+6+7+3+15+10 = 383 + 103/2 (hume) = 434 + body

Total attack excluding food (str is hume base):
Hachiryu: 454
Usu body: 438
Juogi: 434
ACP body: 447 [2-3 acc short of cap]
Shura: 454 [5 acc short of cap]



Ending up with nearly the same results, swapping around Usu legs with Byakko's Hollow Eearring with Aesir, fire Taipans with thunder Taipans, basically.


Either way, the Taru will most likely want to stay with Usu body, while the Elvaan and Galka lean more towards the Juogi body. Hume and Mithra could go either way.


So a whole lot of math for not much in the way of conclusions. Juogi seems mainly a sidegrade with a slight edge as we bump into various limits more frequently now, but will likely be far easier to acquire than Usu body (depending on drop rate of Briareus's Sash).

[Hitoseijuro]

Motenten, on 11 July 2010 - 10:39 PM, said:

That's +23. If accuracy is well capped, can swap in a Strigoi for another +6 str, 29 total.

I was thinking this too, since Strigoi also gives a good amount of attack, the str probably would go to waste, but its still a high att. However, the new update has brought out a +8 attack ring that mnk can wear aswell. So I would assume if str is going to be capped which it will with usukane set, can always wear the +8att ring no? its +2 more attack than strigoi gives including what you get from str. The ring is relatively easy to obtain.

[pathwriter]

Hitoseijuro, on 12 July 2010 - 12:18 AM, said:

However, the new update has brought out a +8 attack ring that mnk can wear aswell.

Uh... what ring is this?

Ah, nevermind, I found it. The Bastok quest reward one... 'cause so many people care about Bastok quests.

I'm not a mathologist, but I have a hard time imagining a situation in which one could cap out STR and have Strigoi Ring thereby go to waste. There are several ways to adjust gear (albeit a full STR-merited Elvaan Monk in full Usukane will have a bit more trouble than most) to permit this positively absurd ring to retain its full power.