[oceanblaze]

So....I have war at 49 and Nin at 49. Im raising DNC to 49 right now. Think I should bother with THF & DRK? Thfs....like nothing but a farming tool. And DRK..I only see it good in zerg situations. I was thinken about drg possibly..but thats always been a one trick poney kinda sj since we got footwork.

[pathwriter]

I detest Thief, but if for any reason you find yourself farming, being able to do it with Treasure Hunter II at level 90 seems as good a reason as any to drag it to 45. Going to 49 is largely fluff, especially since stat growth is very stagnant now.

Dark Knight is highly situational and I wouldn't count on needing it. I have gotten some mileage out of having Dark Knight leveled, but, truth be told, I've gotten more use out of it as a sub for my mage jobs. Skip it until something compelling demands its use. For damage purposes, /Warrior is a significantly better sub, especially if we can cycle Focus and Aggressor (I say "if" meaning that we can safely sub Warrior without being turned into a red stain on the grass).

With the Occasionally attacks X times weapons apparently working with Footwork, I strongly suspect that Dragoon will be the best support job option. If Hasso and Seigan worked with Footwork, I'd probably lean towards Samurai, but otherwise, a pair of Jumps on which multi-attack weapons can proc, an ability to permanently reduce your Enmity by half every three minutes, flexibility with gearing, Attack and Accuracy Bonus, Conserve TP... it's a really strong sub and should only get stronger, especially if SE is going to push us towards using fucking Footwork. I highly recommend working on it. Frankly, it shouldn't be hard to get Dragoon leveled, either, as it is a competent solo job and, as piercing damage, rather desirable for East Ronfaure [S] sync parties.

[Banter]

/WAR should still beat /DRG by a fair margine. Even on SAM, who can utilize the haste from Wyvern Earring, /WAR still wins in nearly all situations they use Polearm. As far as High Jump goes, if I'm worried about hate, I'll sub NIN and tank myself.

[Banter]

Also, SAM is probably not all that far behind DRG when you're working with Footwork. Building for a 6 hit on MNK isn't really all that hard with a 480 delay weapon.

[pathwriter]

It'd be a 5-hit build, anyhow, assuming you regularly land both hits of Dragon Kick or Tornado Kick (the first two hits, in the latter's case). With a multi-proc weapon, X-hit builds get a little more schizy, though, as TP overflow goes from being possible to pretty much guaranteed. Double Attack's impact is also lessened with a multi-proc weapon, assuming the 2-3 Ursine Claws follow a pattern like Ridill or Soboro Sukehiro, likely not assisted by Kick Attacks. Someone really needs to take some time to try to figure out how they all interact for Footwork.

The big question in my mind would be where to use a Footwork build. It's entirely feasible that it could replace a standard merit-type build, especially if Poise Shoes are any good (opening up similar gearing flexibility to what you'd get from Wyvern Earring). For merit-speed parties, yeah, High Jump won't be doing you any favors except giving you a pile of TP, so /Ninja might still be required for survivability. Fighting stronger enemies, however, it's basically weighing Berserk against how much you actually need Berserk.

/Samurai as an option is pretty much a waste. 15 Store TP is amusing, but a very weak Meditate and limited use for Sekkanoki do not assist the support job much. If we could just use Hasso..

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 25 June 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

It'd be a 5-hit build, anyhow, assuming you regularly land both hits of Dragon Kick or Tornado Kick (the first two hits, in the latter's case). With a multi-proc weapon, X-hit builds get a little more schizy, though, as TP overflow goes from being possible to pretty much guaranteed. Double Attack's impact is also lessened with a multi-proc weapon, assuming the 2-3 Ursine Claws follow a pattern like Ridill or Soboro Sukehiro, likely not assisted by Kick Attacks. Someone really needs to take some time to try to figure out how they all interact for Footwork.

The big question in my mind would be where to use a Footwork build. It's entirely feasible that it could replace a standard merit-type build, especially if Poise Shoes are any good (opening up similar gearing flexibility to what you'd get from Wyvern Earring). For merit-speed parties, yeah, High Jump won't be doing you any favors except giving you a pile of TP, so /Ninja might still be required for survivability. Fighting stronger enemies, however, it's basically weighing Berserk against how much you actually need Berserk.

/Samurai as an option is pretty much a waste. 15 Store TP is amusing, but a very weak Meditate and limited use for Sekkanoki do not assist the support job much. If we could just use Hasso..

With the new Poise shoes, the other new head (name escapes me, aurole?) With 6acc/atk 4haste/stp would be our best bet for a TP head. With Rajas and brutal, it will complete a 7 hit build (X-hits are normally classified from 0-100tp) as well as retain 25% haste. Like you said, X-hit builds go a little wonky with multi hit weapons, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be geared for.

For /DRG and Footwork, TP from Jumps isn't give more proportionally than it would be using regular H2H. The only reason to use it is the enmity shedding from High Jump, which like I said, I'd just assume tank if it comes to that. As well, /NIN allows you to absorb some AoEs. Really, /WAR is easily the best damage, /NIN is the best at damage mitigation for most situations, while /DRG is in some weird middle ground that doesn't add a lot to either side.

[oceanblaze]

Hmmm so the mechanic for us is changing more towards the weapon than the job....lol. Ok ...even so......like path said or rather implied. Which peice works with footwork and kick attack procs in general best? Has anyone come out with anything? I was already on the damage path...so im going to just continue up to the empyrium (or however you spell it) weapon for now. So itll be awhile before I can go down any one of those paths myself as well. ...On the good side. Im happy we actully have something new to talk about that we are in the dark on lol. Adventurous monk like feelings restored!

[Banter]

If the OA2/3 weapons do work with footwork, of course the OA3 weapons are going to be the best choice. If you meant the foot piece, it'll be the haste boots followed by dunes or kyoshu kyahan situationally.

[pathwriter]

Banter, on 25 June 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

With the new Poise shoes

This is assuming that a.) Poise Shoes have a decent damage rating and b.) their latent is activated by Footwork. Admittedly, both are completely valid assumptions to make, along with the assumption that if Occasionally Attacks Twice applies to Footwork, then so will Occasionally Attacks 2-3 Times, but we're not certain. It could be that Poise Shoes are activated by Dancer sub or their base Damage rating is pitifully low. After all, SE has released a pile of Kick Attack Damage enhancing footwear and not a single one of them has compared to Dune Boots, which have been around since the NA release. Kyoshu Kyahan come close enough, especially given that 20 Attack goes a long way towards closing the gap, but the thing that worries me is that SE reads these forums. They could well have seen some of the (admittedly very sparse) discussion of exploiting multi-attack weapons with Footwork and decided, "Well, let's screw them by putting a temptingly high Haste rating on some Footwork boots that only have D +5!" Yes, I really am that paranoid about Square-Enix.

The rest of your post leaves some... odd gaps to parse in your logic. By the way, I hope you appreciate that I'm not just dismissing you out of hand. Anyhow, you say that if Enmity is going to be an issue, you'd rather just tank anyhow. At what point will you ever be able to use Monk/Warrior, then? My account is idle at least until the month changes because I'm too cheap to pay full price for a week of service (and I wanted the hype to die down a little), but what I've been hearing of the new XP camps suggests that players are taking a beating and mages are actually being made to work again. That's not really a situation that says to me, "Let's bring the ultimate hate machine, Monk/Warrior!" For HNMs... well, I've heard that the new tiger VNM is a serious beating, a la Byakko, and being in a position to screw with a Paladin's grasp of hate doesn't seem wise, not does tanking as Monk seem like it would be properly effective. I'm obviously cherry-picking an example with that, however. Either way, I'm having trouble thinking of a situation outside of colibri or a merit party built old-school KRT style that Monk/Warrior would be wanted for. Hence my arguing for /Dragoon, wherein one can at least keep under the Enmity radar if cautious (Rangers do the same thing with stuff like Lord Ruthven) while retaining a respectable modicum of power.

[Banter]

I didn't say that MNK is able to sub WAR very often, true, but I am currently finishing a decently successful run of Dynamis-Valk as MNK/WAR. When and where you can use it is really about the support you have for it. And with Perfect Counter, it'll be a lot more feasible to use. However, you make it out to seem like you need to be MNK/WAR in order to tank, which I knew we both know is false. The added utility of shadows far outweighs a mediocre reduction in enmity in nearly all situations MNK will ever be in, and even subbing DRG isn't going to keep the mobs attention off of a MNK forever. But like I said, I would just assume tank if I am going to be riding the hate threshold anyways.

[pathwriter]

I'm sorry, I was being vague. I was saying that if you are Monk/Warrior, you probably will end up tanking, at which point you would prefer to have Utsusemi at your disposal.

Come to that, they've given Dual Wield to Dancers and Blue Mages, made most two-handed weapon users able to screw around with whatever subjob they want (not so much Dark Knight), just give Monk Utsusemi natively and I'll be happy. Yeah, it'll screw over another job I love, but Ninja needs a lot more going for it than one extra friggin' shadow.

[Banter]

Well, I won't go anywhere on MNK/WAR if I'm not fully prepared to tank the entire time, because that is what will wind up happening short of more MNK/WAR at the run.

[pathwriter]

So where would that be, then? I'm amazed you can even do in Dynamis. I tended to take my Ranger to Dynamis when I wanted to hurt things because I don't use whatever that GM mod is that allows people to avoid collision detection and it was pretty much a given that no amount of warning people would get them to keep me alive. For that matter, the day after I (finally) got Byakko's Haidate, I went to Dynamis - San d'Oria as Monk/Warrior and spent half the run weakened. I was one of the pioneers of switching to Monk/Ninja way back in the day and, I gotta tell you, I miss having a support job that actually adds something to my DPS, but I've long ago given up any delusions that people will keep me alive without Utsusemi. When I've messed around with /Dragoon, I could at least make use of High Jump (and was lacking green pants) so that I could DD with fewer concerns.

Honestly, the only mage I'd trust to keep me alive if I was Monk/Warrior... is me. And I don't have a mule, so since I can't play my White Mage and Monk at the same time, when the heck am I gonna be using Monk/Warrior and not staring at the sky? I'd bow down in praise to be given Utsusemi natively, now that the idea is stuck in my head.

[Kaparu]

With godly mages like me in his linkshell, he doesn't need to worry about such things.

Not that I actually go to anything.

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 25 June 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

So where would that be, then? I'm amazed you can even do in Dynamis. I tended to take my Ranger to Dynamis when I wanted to hurt things because I don't use whatever that GM mod is that allows people to avoid collision detection and it was pretty much a given that no amount of warning people would get them to keep me alive. For that matter, the day after I (finally) got Byakko's Haidate, I went to Dynamis - San d'Oria as Monk/Warrior and spent half the run weakened. I was one of the pioneers of switching to Monk/Ninja way back in the day and, I gotta tell you, I miss having a support job that actually adds something to my DPS, but I've long ago given up any delusions that people will keep me alive without Utsusemi. When I've messed around with /Dragoon, I could at least make use of High Jump (and was lacking green pants) so that I could DD with fewer concerns.

Honestly, the only mage I'd trust to keep me alive if I was Monk/Warrior... is me. And I don't have a mule, so since I can't play my White Mage and Monk at the same time, when the heck am I gonna be using Monk/Warrior and not staring at the sky? I'd bow down in praise to be given Utsusemi natively, now that the idea is stuck in my head.

Like I said, it generally depends on how good your support is as to what you can sub. We tend to run DDx3 (usually MNKs, sometimes DRK or WAR) COR DNC BRD for the main DD pt with usually 2, sometimes 3, outside mages for haste and other support (-na spells etc), but I still wouldn't try MNK/WAR in an area where AoEs are heavy.

[pathwriter]

I fail to see how AoE factors into it. If AoE is likely, Utsusemi isn't going to protect you.

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 27 June 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

I fail to see how AoE factors into it. If AoE is likely, Utsusemi isn't going to protect you.

Depends on the AoE, but places dyna windy or jeuno and others, it helps a ton.