[Requim]

1. Martial Arts IV is level 46, so assuming the caps go 80=>90=>99 you wouldn't have access to it until the last update. Considering that MNK gets MA VI at 75 (1 level early), it is high likely that PUP will get MA IV at 99 (if not sooner).

2. Dodge and Focus are +20 for 40% of the time, averaging only 8 over the course of 5 minutes, whereas /DNC gives 10 accuracy and will also give 22 evasion full time (before you even consider the benefit of steps and flourishes).

3. Chakra without invigorate isn't too hot when you could just /DNC (or use a mage frame) for consistent healing.

4. Chi blast will likely be terrible damage when subbed so it's basically just a provoke claiming method. Still quite nice to have one, but in no way unique to /MNK.

5. Counterstance will be interesting to see how effective it is as a subjob, though I would doubt it would as useful for a non-MNK since you lack counter gear/merits as PUP (not to mention you wouldn't have shadows like a MNK/NIN). Sweet if you can counter half the attacks coming at you, less sweet when you take over double damage on the connected hits.

6. /NIN gets the same tier of subtle blow as /MNK, and /DNC is just one tier behind. Meh.

7. The HP differences will be ~80 as /WAR or ~130 as /NIN or /DNC. On anything dangerous, a single shadow or a curing waltz would do you as much good.

The best situation I could come up with for needing /MNK is you're either trying to kill a ton of weak mobs that counterstance would help with (but whatever I don't care about your non-THF farming) or you're fighting something that could potentially 1 shot you, but otherwise requires no defense (if you're not at full HP it wouldn't matter anyways, ie you have no shadows to avoid other aoes).

As far as /WAR vs /SAM we can use our brains as to which is better. If you're doing VNMs in a larger group (which is pretty easy by shouting in whitegate), you should be killing fast enough that it doesn't make a difference what you're subbing. If you're low manning, you'll likely be /SCH or /NIN. In the off chance you're trying to zerg something in intervals longer than 9 minutes (4 meditates) without any TPing, then /SAM can be useful since you don't need to run around 1 shotting ~40 mobs for 200 TP (which is at worst only tedious and time consuming).

I can see why Auraeon has fun /SAM since you can mini zerg and potentially MB light. It only needs time to prep so if you're running around a zone trying to find the pop you can probably sneak in your 9 minute prep time and be set, no need to engage random mobs. If your group is good, you should be engaged to the VNM within 9 minutes of entering the zone.../SAM sounds a lot like a zanshin argument for the efficiency of your group.

I think we can all agree that if you only had 10 seconds of engage time an extra WS and SC from sekkanoki would do you more than berserk/warcry/DA. Of course if the fight exceeded the amount of time for your self-SC, /SAM would almost assuredly do less damage /WAR. Since most fights aren't piss poor weak enough that a PUP could zerg them in 10 seconds, I'm not horribly excited by /SAM when I could just /BLM for convenience.

[Aleera]

Requim, on 12 July 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

4. Chi blast will likely be terrible damage when subbed so it's basically just a provoke claiming method. Still quite nice to have one, but in no way unique to /MNK.

It would be hilarious if your poppet shot off a chi blast along with you if you subbed MNK. Double shoop ftw.

[Banter]

Chakra will suck because of no AF enhancements, and suck more because of the lack of invigorate.

[Dibble]

Requim, on 12 July 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

1. Martial Arts IV is level 46, so assuming the caps go 80=>90=>99 you wouldn't have access to it until the last update. Considering that MNK gets MA VI at 75 (1 level early), it is high likely that PUP will get MA IV at 99 (if not sooner).

2. Dodge and Focus are +20 for 40% of the time, averaging only 8 over the course of 5 minutes, whereas /DNC gives 10 accuracy and will also give 22 evasion full time (before you even consider the benefit of steps and flourishes).

3. Chakra without invigorate isn't too hot when you could just /DNC (or use a mage frame) for consistent healing.

4. Chi blast will likely be terrible damage when subbed so it's basically just a provoke claiming method. Still quite nice to have one, but in no way unique to /MNK.

5. Counterstance will be interesting to see how effective it is as a subjob, though I would doubt it would as useful for a non-MNK since you lack counter gear/merits as PUP (not to mention you wouldn't have shadows like a MNK/NIN). Sweet if you can counter half the attacks coming at you, less sweet when you take over double damage on the connected hits.

6. /NIN gets the same tier of subtle blow as /MNK, and /DNC is just one tier behind. Meh.

7. The HP differences will be ~80 as /WAR or ~130 as /NIN or /DNC. On anything dangerous, a single shadow or a curing waltz would do you as much good.

The best situation I could come up with for needing /MNK is you're either trying to kill a ton of weak mobs that counterstance would help with (but whatever I don't care about your non-THF farming) or you're fighting something that could potentially 1 shot you, but otherwise requires no defense (if you're not at full HP it wouldn't matter anyways, ie you have no shadows to avoid other aoes).

As far as /WAR vs /SAM we can use our brains as to which is better. If you're doing VNMs in a larger group (which is pretty easy by shouting in whitegate), you should be killing fast enough that it doesn't make a difference what you're subbing. If you're low manning, you'll likely be /SCH or /NIN. In the off chance you're trying to zerg something in intervals longer than 9 minutes (4 meditates) without any TPing, then /SAM can be useful since you don't need to run around 1 shotting ~40 mobs for 200 TP (which is at worst only tedious and time consuming).

I can see why Auraeon has fun /SAM since you can mini zerg and potentially MB light. It only needs time to prep so if you're running around a zone trying to find the pop you can probably sneak in your 9 minute prep time and be set, no need to engage random mobs. If your group is good, you should be engaged to the VNM within 9 minutes of entering the zone.../SAM sounds a lot like a zanshin argument for the efficiency of your group.

I think we can all agree that if you only had 10 seconds of engage time an extra WS and SC from sekkanoki would do you more than berserk/warcry/DA. Of course if the fight exceeded the amount of time for your self-SC, /SAM would almost assuredly do less damage /WAR. Since most fights aren't piss poor weak enough that a PUP could zerg them in 10 seconds, I'm not horribly excited by /SAM when I could just /BLM for convenience.

I like this reply.

[Nelo]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong. But ever since I started this game I was told that job traits from your sub DO NOT stack with traits from your main. For instance a DRG subbing WAR won't get another tier of attack bonus, just because main and sub both have attack bonus trait. PUP has Tier3 Evasion bonus, so how are you getting + eva from /DNC?

Also: IF they did stack, dnc/nin would have dual wieldV right now.... I don't think it's likely that they do <.<

This post has been edited by Nelo: 23 July 2010 - 04:56 PM

[Banter]

Nelo, on 23 July 2010 - 04:51 PM, said:

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong. But ever since I started this game I was told that job traits from your sub DO NOT stack with traits from your main. For instance a DRG subbing WAR won't get another tier of attack bonus, just because main and sub both have attack bonus trait. PUP has Tier3 Evasion bonus, so how are you getting + eva from /DNC?

Also: IF they did stack, dnc/nin would have dual wieldV right now.... I don't think it's likely that they do <.<

This is correct

[Nelo]

Banter, on 23 July 2010 - 09:48 PM, said:

This is correct

I thought so.