[Velhart]

Read this in a article and found it interesting.

http://kotaku.com/55...y-not-as-strong

Quote

Yoichi Wada, boss of publisher Square Enix (Final Fantasy), has some stern words for Japanese developers in a recent interview with industry site Gamasutra.

"I don't think we can say Japan's strong" in core gameplay, he tells the site.

"Western developers have become much stronger, during the past five years, in this aspect — the game element. For example, is it a sandbox game? An FPS? A cover action kind of game? This is the game's main element."

Strange, as I'd say that's one of the few areas Japanese developers can generally (generally!) be counted on to still be competitive. Now, if he'd said user interface design (like, menus, inventories, heads-up-displays) or engine technology, then I'd be nodding my head in agreement.

What do you guys think about this?

I myself kind of believe this statement. JRPG's are my favorite genre and they will always be, but I have noticed a slight decrease in the efforts of our JRPG's today, only about 1/5 of JRPG's are able to break the mold nowadays in America.

I do blame the popularity of video games today. I say this, because back then, a video game was harder to sell than it was today. At the time, not only were you limited on the work you could create, but you had to take that small amount you had and impress only a small fan base, and try to increase that fan base. So you had to put a lot of work into a game to make sure it was so great that it would be clear off the shelves from day one. Certain games like the Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were able to break this mold and still do today, despite the Final Fantasy series not as strong as it was after Final Fantasy X. Dragon Quest is still stronger tan ever though. I did really enjoy FFXIII also, but some minor complaints I hope they learn from and make Final Fantasy XV a sure winner.

So basically what I am trying to say is, that it was harder to sell a game than it is today, so you had to make it really good for it to sell. Now we are at the point that video games are in such high demand and the developers are being put to work on various games. Companies such as EA and Square-Enix come to mind on this, they release so many games within a year, only a few of them come out really good that is not a franchise series (again Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy). But now that is is easier to sell a game, I feel like the developers don't put out as much as they use to.

Now on what he said about WRPG's growing, I believe this 100%. We have companies in our, well should say western hemisphere that really have broken the mold on several occasions, Blizzard and BioWare come to mind on this. They don't go by deadlines and they release the game when they know it is good and ready. I wish all companies would go on this concept in their major titles, I don't believe they realize that they have dedicated fan bases and they don't like being jerked around with concepts different from what they liked. These companies and even Nintendo just get it, they know what the people want and don't half ass their games (Zelda, Mario, Metroid). Someone mentioned something fantastic when I was on this subject, "Game companies should not be trying to appeal to another country and focus on it as one big worldwide market.". This is absolutely true, Japan, you appealed to America by just being you, the 1990's proved this. Aim for a game that everyone will like, not try to appeal to a certain audience, this is how Nintendo makes so much off Mario.

So overall, all I say is, look at your game, make sure it is good, and what your 20 year+ fan base is looking for in a game before releasing it. Delay it if you have to and don't promise release dates until you are 100% positive that the game is ready to go, I AM LOOKING AT YOU SEGA! o_< (Referring to Sonic the Hedgehog 2006)

/rant off

[treelo]

Go into any game store and flick through the cheaper selection of games, notice the overwhelming number of hidden object games and let out a deep sigh. While the western markets have a greater variety of developers working across almost every genre, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're better or worse overall. Personally I'd say they're about even, with key companies on both sides standing out in their relevant chosen genre.

You're right to blame the booming popularity of gaming though, as more and more "casual" (read: fake) gamers delve into the market it becomes considerably harder to market what most people see as dull (complex) games which is why the Japs have been finding it harder. The rapidly changing face of the Final Fantasy franchise is proof of this with SE doing what they can to simplify things for the dullards who are currently dipping into the market.

Really I think it's just a matter of mistaking talent for sales figures.

[Vigilous]

Quite personally, if SE was resigned to publish some games that were actually fucking games, I might agree with all this sentiment of the lolcausals taking over. However, as it stands, they are heading in the directions they are because some meat head thought long corridors and cut scenes every 20 minutes were the way to go.

I've felt this for a long time now, well before Farmville became what is it and before the Wii even: the JRPG is dead. When I find myself wanting to play an older FF over the new one, there's a fucking problem. And it has nothing to do with the casual market wanting to piss in my cereal either. Fact is, these people flocked to the Wii because, as Sony put it, it's a fucking lollipop (and yes, look, Sony is releasing it's own GD lollipop [TY Penny Arcade]), and the same will be said for Farmville (which is already starting to fall by the wayside). What casual gamers want is so far removed from what we actual gamers want, there shouldn't be a problem developing games for both markets.

That said, the Japanese must consider what the western market wants. At least in terms of console games. After all, games don't sell quite as well on the 360 or the PS3 in Japan as they do over here, because the Japanese market is more focused on hand-helds (if this has changed at all, someone please correct me). And given the fact that gaming is such a global thing now, pigeon-holing themselves to arcane development practices would be the dumbest idea since Sega's own motion-controller. Nintendo continues to do well with their flagship series - not because they are keeping them distinctly Japanese - but because they find what works and stick with it, and it just happens to appeal to everyone. That, and they keep their games focused on GAME PLAY! It shouldn't be such a hard thing to do, considering that these are video GAMES. SE is concerned with cut scenes and story now, that Final Fantasy is no longer a game. I wouldn't mind really, if they actually ditched the RPG elements and just went all Heavy Rain with the series.

To be perfectly frank, Vel, I am surprised you even like FFXIII. It screams to the contrary of almost everything you just said.

[Ptolemy]

console wars are to thank for what is happening to games with stale gameplay and all graphics

and pretty much anything japanese is pretty much despised here, only a small fraction of the player base here besides the main sells blood and gore and casual gaming which all the money comes from here are


theres alot of companies that arent even trying to port here now, like the tales series with some of their games










edit: and i saw a article some where by the part of SE that created Nier thought of us as blood thirsty brutes (which is true heh) it was the reason they only ported nier gestalt here vs the other game where it actually looked like a RPG

This post has been edited by Ptolemy: 13 July 2010 - 07:15 PM

[Velhart]

Vigilous, on 13 July 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

To be perfectly frank, Vel, I am surprised you even like FFXIII. It screams to the contrary of almost everything you just said.

Not particularly. I loved FFXIII and its linearity didn't bother me in the slightest bit, but like I said, it does not have that same traditional Final Fantasy feeling in it. The story itself was great, but ever since Hironobu Sakaguchi left, the Final Fantasy series has not necessarily gone in a decline, just in a different direction. They still make a hell of some games for the series, but it still does not have that vibe that Sakaguchi gave, which I believe is one of the things people complain about.

I loved FFXIII, but it was not because it was a Final Fantasy, it had a good story, a great battle system, and loved the side quests. I will admit, it hit it a lot closer than 12 did, and I think they are starting to get it, I think SE will learn a lot in FFXV, especially since they addressed themselves that things have not been as strong, I am sure they will look at this.

[Corrderio]

I will admit the western market has gained popularity, however that doesn't mean much to me.

[Vigilous]

Quote

console wars are to thank for what is happening to games with stale gameplay and all graphics

Seeing as how the "Console Wars" ended in 1995, I'm just going to assume you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Quote

Not particularly. I loved FFXIII and its linearity didn't bother me in the slightest bit, but like I said, it does not have that same traditional Final Fantasy feeling in it. The story itself was great, but ever since Hironobu Sakaguchi left, the Final Fantasy series has not necessarily gone in a decline, just in a different direction. They still make a hell of some games for the series, but it still does not have that vibe that Sakaguchi gave, which I believe is one of the things people complain about.

I loved FFXIII, but it was not because it was a Final Fantasy, it had a good story, a great battle system, and loved the side quests. I will admit, it hit it a lot closer than 12 did, and I think they are starting to get it, I think SE will learn a lot in FFXV, especially since they addressed themselves that things have not been as strong, I am sure they will look at this.

I never said it was going into decline. I loved X and XII, it's just that XIII seems to represent everything you just claimed to be wrong with the Japanese developers. But then again, considering how well it sold in Japan itself, maybe not. Thinking about it, I believe what is happening to JRPGs is that our market's tastes have matured. FF has always been about junior high morality, never truly moving beyond the most basic of existentialist ideas. And this is true of damn near every JRPG. Honestly, the heaviest a FF ever got was Vivi in FFIX. And what's worse, you have no control over how these characters deal with that. Which is OK, because that works within the narrative structure of the JRPG itself. But when western developers come out and pose questions of morality and identity, leaving it up to the player to decide how to answer these questions, it becomes a much more mature narrative. Almost all of us who love FF got started around junior high or high school, which is the appropriate age to enjoy Japanese games.

At the end of the day, however, the Japanese development cycle is just the same as the west's. For every 3 - 5 absolutely astounding titles per year, there are over a hundred duds. Probably more so in Japan, I'd wager. After all, they do have some zany off the wall genres that would never sell here in the states. Dating sims come to mind.

However, I have to say, the SE boss can go suck a fat chocobo cock. It just occurred to me that Miyamoto has extolled the same nonsense for the last year and a half. Blaming the industry as a whole for your shortcomings appears to be the new JP line.

This post has been edited by Vigilous: 14 July 2010 - 07:02 AM

[Velhart]

I can still stand by it, it is like saying it was the worst of the best. FFXIII was great, but there were a lot of elements I wish that were used to give it the same traditional setting as the previous ones, such as back tracking to all the areas in the game, an airship, the traditional victory theme, and so on, which were all missing and why I feel that Final Fantasy XIII was a weaker part of the series and wish they would go with what the series was known for. It is simple things like this to the everyday fan boy of the series that gives them a feeling of doubt on how the developers are looking at the series now, but this message that SE gave about the strength of JRPG's today gives me hope that they will look at their work in the past and try to recreate it, maybe even improve it along the way. It was like Nintendo when they finally decided at E3 to start going back to their hardcore audience who they were neglecting since 2006. I don't blame you, it does sound contradicting saying I love FFXIII and saying what I said above, but like I said, the weakest of the best.

[Vigilous]

It's not really the fact that it doesn't hearken back to the good'ol days. In terms of it just being a video game, it was horrible. I'm all for a FF being set in an actual future and whatnot. It's just - as a game - FFXIII doesn't jive for me at all. They could have called it Super Orgasmic Fun Time, and I still wouldn't have liked it.

This post has been edited by Vigilous: 14 July 2010 - 06:34 PM

[Velhart]

Vigilous, on 14 July 2010 - 06:33 PM, said:

It's not really the fact that it doesn't hearken back to the good'ol days. In terms of it just being a video game, it was horrible. I'm all for a FF being set in an actual future and whatnot. It's just - as a game - FFXIII doesn't jive for me at all. They could have called it Super Orgasmic Fun Time, and I still wouldn't have liked it.

To each his own. If people have legitimate reasons for not liking a game, I will not argue with them. To me, what I always look for in a RPG before everything else is story structure, a very important factor to me, I have no influence to continue an RPG if I lack motivation. Graphics don't bother me if the characters are intriguing. I think there is only one game that has stopped me from continuing due to game play and that was Resonance of Fate. The story looks great, but I was put off by the battle system, I am thinking about giving it a 2nd chance when I don't have much left to play.

Anyways, I feel that FFXIII did give me the motivation to move on in the game, even if it was in a straight line and I never felt bored with the battle system. I think the one thing that really put me off till end game was you had to be the character they chose for you, I would of definitely picked Lightning instead of Hope in one of the parts of the game. I felt very annoyed I was playing my least favorite character when the main character is right next to me - -;. But overall, if someone gives a legitimate reason on why they don't like it, I won't call you an idiot, unless you are like "Ohhh it sux cuse there is no big guyz with gunz killin things or footballs!", which if you read certain boards like GameFaqs, this is quite a common response to games people don't like.

[Saniiro]

treelo, on 13 July 2010 - 11:20 AM, said:

You're right to blame the booming popularity of gaming though, as more and more "casual" (read: fake) gamers delve into the market it becomes considerably harder to market what most people see as dull (complex) games which is why the Japs have been finding it harder. The rapidly changing face of the Final Fantasy franchise is proof of this with SE doing what they can to simplify things for the dullards who are currently dipping into the market.

Um, no he's not.

Gaming would have grown regardless of whether or not companies began catering to "fake" gamers, as you put it. That's the nature of things. hardcore gamers are the ones who caused most of the nonsensical changes in the market. Casual gaming has only started having real effects on the industry in the past 4 years, as is evident in systems like the Wii, and honestly, a good 85% of people you could classify as "casual" gamers don't even care enough to poke around gaming forums.

For years you had gamers complaining that Game series X hadn't evolved at all, and people clamoring for advancement and change. And then the various graphics wars that were sparked between consoles just made things worse. Serious gamers were the ones complaining, demanding changes, and now after seeing the effects on their constant complaints they are trying to claim its not their fault. That's the funny thing about it; true casual gamers don't care one way or another. They buy a game, if its good to them, they play it and then they are done. If its not, they sell it back or don't bother anymore. Serious/Hardcore gamers are the ones you see spending all day complaining about how this game doesn't have X feature, or how this game doesn't have graphics as good as that game -- Show me one casual gamer who can actually tell the difference between 720p and 1080p enough to care about graphics, and I'll show you a "hardcore" nerd who needs to ease off the pretentious bullshit.

You can't get into a car and berate the driver into turning down a side road and try to get pissed when he doesn't end up where you wanted him to. It doesn't work like that.

The problems in gaming were caused by those of us (hardcore gamers) who felt they knew better what a game should be than anyone else; by the new hardcore gamers who wanted faster gameplay, better graphics, and less cinematic depth -- not by Casual gamers, who by fucking definition of their goddamn label, DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

Honestly, what happened is simple: Those of us who started on NES/GENESIS/SNES/PS1 classics GREW UP. We have jobs, and more important things to do than sit a round all day gaming. We have bills and families and priorities, and that limits what we can pour into the market. So who do developers turn to? The people who are the age we were when we started diving in, and unfortunately those people want completely different things than we do. Happens with music (Eric Clapton vs. John Mayer), happens with movies (Dances with Wolves vs. Avatar), happens with television (M.A.S.H. vs. LOST) , happens with comic books (can't think of any examples, lol). Its just the way of the world.

It's not "casuals", it's the next generation of hardcore gamers. Its unfortunate, it pisses me off, but let's not blame people who really don't have anything to do with it.

This post has been edited by Saniiro: 15 July 2010 - 08:28 AM

[Velhart]

*sigh* Again the "duh" factor. Everyone knows how things work today. What we are talking about is the quality of games being released in our markets today, which are not living up to what they were capable of in the past. This is not a generation issue, it is an issue with games becoming so popular that game companies are putting half the effort that they use to have in making a game (some companies don't apply), mainly because they do not need to to get it to sell. Back then, getting a game to sell was a lot harder than it is today, so you really had to put a lot into it to get it to sell.

What you are arguing about is completely separate from what we are talking about. We are talking about quality, which has been driven down due to popularity, we are not necessarily blaming this generation's (can't believe you called them) hardcore gamers.

[Osvaldo]

I think it is an effort issue tying to a generation issue. The effort is not poor, but the priorities in games are different. In the 16bit era they could only do so much with the graphics, so they focused on gameplay and storyine (if an RPG), and today graphics max can be accomplished, so they focus on that rather than storyline and gameplay, especially knowing that the new generations will choose graphics over everything else. Like a book, if the cover wows someone at the store, they'll buy it, and as long as they have your money, what do they care if the storyline is subpar? Unless the story/gameplay is horrible enough that you'll never want to buy a game from that company, they'll keep making games based on their sales. And our generation of gamers (8bit/16bit) started out caring more about the gameplay, not really thinking too deep into graphics or much of anything else. That's why we complain today about how a lot of companies are making games to a different generation of gamers who, as been said, have a different taste in games. It's not a bad thing, but that's why in the past 4 years or so, companies are going back to either making remakes of old games, HD old school games, or games in the same manner of old school games to give a nostalgic feeling. Nintendo basically has done this since the beginning, simply using the same mascots and same gameplay from their previous consoles except making it fit into the newest systems type of gameplay to satisfy both generations. But that's also why a lot of the new generation of gamers bash on Nintendo as well.

[draugo]

And just think the atari generation doesn't even play video games anymore (for the most part, always exceptions to every rule.)

[Mirae]

Osvaldo, on 15 July 2010 - 09:55 AM, said:

I think it is an effort issue tying to a generation issue. The effort is not poor, but the priorities in games are different. In the 16bit era they could only do so much with the graphics, so they focused on gameplay and storyine (if an RPG), and today graphics max can be accomplished, so they focus on that rather than storyline and gameplay, especially knowing that the new generations will choose graphics over everything else.

I think you pretty much nailed what I wanted to say. Graphics have become a bigger focus for alot of games, alot of the time (unfortunately) at the cost of gameplay, story, or both. Of course there are still games out there with good gameplay and story, but you have to wade through the mediocre ones to find them, which is the complete opposite of gaming back in the NES/SNES/PSX etc days.
I often think to myself, if alot of the games that are popular today had SNES graphics, iwould they still be enjoyable to play?

Really though, because of the advancement of technology alot of gamers these days won't even look at a game if it has "bad" graphics. That is likely one of the reasons games' quality has declined with regards to actual gameplay, because chances are if it doesn't look pretty, it won't sell.
I do think that the 90s gamer kids have the advantage in that they grew up on pixellated graphics and therefore are probably more open to a game that is potentially good but isn't amazing graphics-wise.
On the other hand, it can be hard not to be partially blinded by nostalgia. Sometimes it is hard to be satisfied with, say, a remake of a game you loved as a kid, when the original has the advantage of being nostalgic.

Regarding Final Fantasy, the series to me has become just another RPG to me after FFX. XII's gameplay was good, but the storyline bored me and so did the characters. XIII...lol. (To be honest when the trailers were coming out for it, I was genuinely disinterested because all it showed was the spectacular CG cutscenes. Not much story was hinted at and no gameplay was shown at all until much later. ) Part of the series' soul left when Sakaguchi did, in my opinion.

This post has been edited by Mirae: 03 October 2010 - 04:53 AM

[Wildstriker]

I am going to say it seems like a complex issue to me. On one hand, I agree with those who claim that it's the difference in generations that is causing this influx of games that lack a core gameplay element. The fact is, we had pretty simple games back then, like Duck Hunt, and this generation of young children are going to have Wii Sports or Nintendogs. Now that gaming industries have more capital to produce more products, they're going to try to get fans in that new market. Not only that, back when gaming was in its infancy, developers did not have to deal with an aging hardcore gamer since most of us were either teens, young kids, and in my case toddler, so it's a new sort of experiment for them trying to make games for a 20+ crowd.

On the other hand, I do think gaming's popularity is affecting the quality of games coming out as well. The fact is a lot of these new 'gamers' are in the same sort of boat as these little kids, they don't have a background in good gameplay experience, so they need graphics as a way to indicate whether or not they should buy a game. While I do think saying graphics come at the cost of gameplay is not necessarily true (God of War for example or Mass Effect), the reality for a majority of video game titles is that working on graphics relative to the system the game is on with subpar gameplay will help more in the long run rather than working on superior gameplay with subpar or mediocre graphics.

[What?]

How this problem of graphics over gameplay is solved depends on what the big 3 decide to do next generation. Nintendo saw the increased costs of developing games in HD so they went for an underpowered system to try and lure developers who didn't want to take a risk with such a massive budget. The problem they had was those developers saw less risk in developing a HD game for the 360, PS3 and PC instead of just the Wii. Successes were bigger and flops flopped harder, gaming going Hollywood I like to call it. And if it continues like this we'll see less and less unique games and more of the same identical games (first person shooters, anyone?) because it's less risk. We've already seen it this generation.

If Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony decide to not make a massive generational leap this time and stay close together in performance it'll be better for the industry as a whole. Graphics have already reached a point of diminishing returns so this is the best time for the loss leader mentality to end. Besides, I think Sony has lost enough money along with Microsoft for them to consider doing this regardless of whether it'll be the death of the industry or not. Microsoft can't put more money into Xbox as their shareholders are tired of them throwing money at the problem and not seeing great results. Sony just can't afford to do a PS3 scenario again.

Most western developers were on the PC, they had experience with powerful hardware and it made the transition to creating HD assets for consoles easier. Not only do japanese developers have basically no experience with making games on PCs, Japan as a whole aren't into PCs that much last I checked. That's why they've been left behind in addition to the fact they've got no motivation and can't bother making a game for a worldwide market / they don't know how. The west is focused on graphics more than the east so it's no surprise they're benefiting from this current model more while the japanese devs have moved into the handheld space, which western gamers won't even acknowledge exists.

It would be very easy for graphics to stop mattering so much and allow smaller developers to make big hits instead of just the ones with the most money. Limiting what people can do on consoles is important, let's hope nobody fucks it up next time and actually tries to make a profit for once instead of just bleeding the industry dry.

[Vigilous]

Quote

Limiting what people can do on consoles is important, let's hope nobody fucks it up next time and actually tries to make a profit for once instead of just bleeding the industry dry.

You mean how Sony already does?

[What?]

Graphics wise? I'm not interested in firmware updates taking away functionality

[Vigilous]

Sony has gone on record numerous times saying that they purposefully make it difficult for developers to code for Playstations to limit what they can do.