[treelo]

Banter, on 15 July 2010 - 01:34 PM, said:

People like you make me laugh. I never said they did the best damage, but Samba on top of Marches, haste and a good haste set (at least 20%) is going to be a bigger increase in party damage than adding a THF instead. Add to that, the fact that their curing is basically limited to how fast their recast is, and the job is miles ahead of THF.

When the THF is doing all the damage, and tanking, and causing tidal patterns to shift with the gravitational force of their ego, you don't need a DNC to help the rest of your party suck faster.

[synthetic]

i want soo much to hate you treelo, but our mutual hatred is making me not...

[treelo]

This is why I'll end up in heaven despite my multitude of sins.

[Banter]

treelo, on 15 July 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

When the THF is doing all the damage, and tanking,

lol

[Kaparu]

Not that I'm not fully aware of Treelo's sarcasm, but its laughable that rest of you are disagreeing. An ~29%(which assumes a pretty low amount of gear-haste, and no Hasso. With Hasso and that same, low-end amount of gear-haste, you're looking at ~42% increase) increase in TP and WS damage annihilates the damage that any third DD could offer, thief included.

[Banter]

Kaparu, on 15 July 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Not that I'm not fully aware of Treelo's sarcasm, but its laughable that rest of you are disagreeing. An ~29%(which assumes a pretty low amount of gear-haste, and no Hasso. With Hasso and that same, low-end amount of gear-haste, you're looking at ~42% increase) increase in TP and WS damage annihilates the damage that any third DD could offer, thief included.

Also, a DNC swinging at that speed has a nearly unlimited TP pool with all the new OA2/3 weapons released.

[ryolen]

jeez lets not start fighting lol DNC n THF both good in there own ways. I have both at 80 so this is completely unbiased, but if were 5/6, and there is 1DNC and 1THF seeking, u would be an idiot too choose the thf over the dnc just cuz of what that guy said, dnc dmg is really good now /sam, even /war, int he time my thf gets 2ws in, dnc gets 4. Saber dance alone takes care of everything lol.

Being that my thf's WS gear is far superior to my dncs, mainly full heca, THF tends to do little bit more dmg with my WS, but the dps definately goes to my dnc, swinging more often and at a faster rate, all while giving every other melee in my party 10% haste.

idk both are good in their own ways, but having both well geared, and loving both jobs, i cant help but choose dnc post update, the option to sub war n sam just raped my thf; ; I noticed on events liek Abyssea, its really hard to land a sneak or trick attack simply cuz people insist on fucking moving all the time. Making my thf overall dmg go down some in the long run.

Love em both, one gives others good drops, the other can mainheal, stfu.

[Kaparu]

Dancer's damage output is completely irrelevant in comparing the optimal choice for a remaining party slot. The increase to everyone else's damage alone more than justifies the switch.

[Gredival]

Arguments for a 3 support party =/= arguments that DNC > THF.

The fact that your perception of an optimal party includes DNC does not make DNC "better." That's like saying BRD is a better job than WHM simply because in an optimal party the WHM is interchangeable with a RDM or SCH. It merely means that DNC is a support job.

And if your argument held true, then that would make DNC superior to any DD job. Which is a moot point because then you're just basically saying COR/BRD/DNC > DD

[ironwall]

I just solo on DNC. The lone wolf is only slowed down by a group.

[Shamaya]

Gredival logic wins again. Mind you the best MMJ merit parties I've been in / heard of have had a dnc in them; Asura's best Apoc, Spharhai, rdm, brd, cor, and dnc. And 2-3 PL's (lol?). That is definitely overboard but that produced results of 40-45k/hr+. Unfortunately if I took myself as Thf instead of taking a Dnc, we got 35k/hr+ instead. And recently, Machina's 50-90k/hr abyssea alliances have used 2x Brd+Cor+Rdm+Dnc+DD+DD PT's.

It's not like everything you do in the game can make use of such a party setup though. And even when it can, it'd be quite another claim to say that adding a 2nd Dnc to the party is going to be better than adding a thief.

I can mutually respect Dnc in comparison to Thf, as another dynamic job that's had a hard time breaching into the mainstream. I don't think I could see myself leveling it though. I'd feel like a poser or something; it'd just feel weird. You'd think they'd be better, or perhaps almost as good as a Ninja though. And nin's aren't terrible DD either depending on the situation. I like to think of them as close to Mnk/Nin in burn parties if they're not being forced to tanked and can use Innin.


Wow@Derail. For daggers, I'd get a storeTP fusetto if you want something decent quick. Not sure what to recommend assuming no Twashtar or Auric dagger. But I don't think you could go wrong getting a DEX Kila. The +7d.a. dagger's delay is just too high. It's ok if you offset the high delay it has by the fact that you /are/ getting d.a. But you could have instead gone with a STR Kila that already has a lower delay, and also adds +1 base dmg to each dagger hand (possibly +2 each), not to mention all the attack. 2-3x Parazonium seems very much within reach of most players, but it has a horrible proc ratio. Wielding it with brutal and thief's native triple attack makes it have less DPS than Sirocco. Given the crappy proc rate (1.7hits/round as opposed to 2hits/round as you might think), I'd definitely say the increased TP gain you get from it is something that may be worth using situationally. Blau is just pretty much out now. X's just, the base damage and delay looks gross compared to what's out now. It doesn't look worth it. Lately I've been using X's to save TP and then unleash a huge WS/SC at the start of the fight in order to land a lot of hate. Without magian upgrades, that could be the ultimate niche fate of X's.

Of course there's nothing wrong with being playful.. X's+Evisc Fusetto + new crit trait + 2x new crit dmg+ armors, could be fun.
I think Treelo has posted more times in this thread than the number of times they've logged in in the last 6 months.

[Banter]

NIN can't even come remotely close to the dmg even a MNK/NIN can put out.

[Konda]

Banter, on 16 July 2010 - 04:21 AM, said:

NIN can't even come remotely close to the dmg even a MNK/NIN can put out.

Except nobody lets NINs into high buff meripo situations and lets them use innin so nobody really knows how much dmg a decked NIN can do. Hell, NIN might have recieved another dual wield trait and nobody knows.

I'm not saying NIN is a top tier DD, but when equipped properly, it's much better than people give it credit for.

[Kaparu]

Gredival, on 15 July 2010 - 09:03 PM, said:

Arguments for a 3 support party =/= arguments that DNC > THF.

The fact that your perception of an optimal party includes DNC does not make DNC "better." That's like saying BRD is a better job than WHM simply because in an optimal party the WHM is interchangeable with a RDM or SCH. It merely means that DNC is a support job.

And if your argument held true, then that would make DNC superior to any DD job. Which is a moot point because then you're just basically saying COR/BRD/DNC > DD

Uh, no? There is never going to be a situation that a full party won't benefit more from a dancer than a thief. That's absurd. Even if you're just getting Haste and have a very average amount of haste in equipment, you're looking at an ~19% increase in everyone's TP and WS damage. This doesn't account for Box Step, nor doesn't it account for the fact that dancer is capable of quite a respectable amount of damage themselves. Hell, I could make an argument for the fact that healers aren't even necessary in quite a few of the more melee-oriented situations now, given that bards and corsairs are more than capable of hasting people.

My argument does hold true, and dancer is usually superior to any DD job.

[Kaparu]

Konda, on 16 July 2010 - 07:03 AM, said:

Except nobody lets NINs into high buff meripo situations and lets them use innin so nobody really knows how much dmg a decked NIN can do. Hell, NIN might have recieved another dual wield trait and nobody knows.

I'm not saying NIN is a top tier DD, but when equipped properly, it's much better than people give it credit for.

Not that I think ninja's damage output is trash, because its not(which will be accentuated in the coming level increases), but they're not keeping up with most of the standard melee DD, regardless of whether or not you're buffed to high hell. Innin is about as useful as Closed Position- not very. This game doesn't cater to people who want to spend long periods of time behind things.

EDIT: NIN really can't touch the output of MNK/NIN though, sorry. MNK/NIN demolishes everyone without a relic weapon or full-time Hasso.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 16 July 2010 - 09:33 AM

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 16 July 2010 - 09:12 AM, said:

Uh, no? There is never going to be a situation that a full party won't benefit more from a dancer than a thief. That's absurd.

If your ideal party setup is

Support 1
Support 2
Support 3
DD1
DD2
Healer

THF will do more for the party in either the DD slots than DNC would for those same slots. In the same respect DNC will do more for the party in a support slot than THF would.

That is to say if you have DNC COR BRD RDM WAR, it would be better to add THF than another DNC. Alternatively if you had COR BRD RDM WAR SAM it would be better to add a DNC than a THF.

Your arguments are merely that a 3 support party is the ideal setup because of Haste samba... But those are not arguments that DNC > THF.

Quote

dancer is capable of quite a respectable amount of damage themselves

lol

Quote

My argument does hold true, and dancer is usually superior to any DD job.

You are obviously far too busy jerking off shitty hybrids with your hipster "You guys are so far behind" theories of FF to actually read what the fuck is being said.


1. All your arguments are basically DNC > THF because adding a Dancer does more for the party because DNCs augment everyone else

2. If the reason DNC does more is because they are augmenting others and not doing damage themselves DNC should thus be a support slot like COR and BRD

3. Your argument basically is an ideal PT has three support and 2 DD (or 3 DD if you want to cut the healer)

4. You attempt to make a leap from "Three support PTs are best" to "Support jobs are more important DD jobs" and "DNC > THF" -- there is no logical connect there. A party without such DD is just as inefficient as a party without support jobs. As an entire category of party sub-group, DD is not any less important to the party than the support. The most you could say is that all DD are interchangeable each DD job is less important in the respect that no specific DD is vital. You do not HAVE to have DRK, DRG, WAR, THF, MNK, etc. specifically. You merely need 2 (or 3 without a healer). Alternatively you could also say DD are less important because the easiest slots to fill (although it is definitely true that BRD and COR would be harder to find than DNC, and DNC would probably be just as easy to find as a DD). But neither of those give you any logical transition into saying DNC > THF. It's demonstratively false that Support > DD in the way you are trying to argue it (across the board) so THF is as good a fit for its sub-group as DNC is a fit for its sub-group they are both capable of fulfilling necessary party roles. So any DNC > THF arguments have to be footnoted with *as a support, or *in doing certain support tasks.

So once again, arguments that a 3 support party is the ideal setup, =/= arguments that DNC > THF.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 16 July 2010 - 07:02 PM

[Gredival]

Shamaya, on 16 July 2010 - 12:29 AM, said:

2-3x Parazonium seems very much within reach of most players, but it has a horrible proc ratio. Wielding it with brutal and thief's native triple attack makes it have less DPS than Sirocco. Given the crappy proc rate (1.7hits/round as opposed to 2hits/round as you might think), I'd definitely say the increased TP gain you get from it is something that may be worth using situationally

What's the comparison between the OA2 and OA3 Parazonium's? I mean the 2x Athame was quite ahead of Sirocco so I don't understand how the new ones are less than Sirocco.

[pathwriter]

The distribution on OA2 Parazonium is 60:40. On OA3, it's 50:30:20. With a truly pathetic damage rating, the OA3 becomes mostly a toy. At least, I'm pretty sure that's what Shamaya is saying.

[Kaparu]

Gredival, on 16 July 2010 - 06:28 PM, said:

Rambling over semantics.

This would all be peachy keen to talk about if it were in any way based on reality. The overall utility of a job is very much determined by availability and by how well it works with other jobs. If that weren't the case, one could claim that, overall, most(if not all) melee DD pale in comparison to mages, because melee down right require a few key elements to be worth having around the majority of the time. So sure, if you want to argue that if you were given the choice between two competent dancers or a dancer and thief combination, you'd go with the latter, be my guest.

And you really shouldn't be so quick to discount the damage output of a dancer with no ulterior obligations. You both have access to the same immensely powerful daggers, almost identical equipment, and while you have Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and Feint to work with, dancer has higher inherent accuracy, full-blown Reverse Flourish(which No Foot Rise to support it), and the option to fully merit Saber Dance.

Edit: Not to mention significantly higher attack speed and Berserk.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 16 July 2010 - 07:29 PM

[Gredival]

Kaparu, on 16 July 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:

The overall utility of a job is very much determined by availability and by how well it works with other jobs. If that weren't the case, one could claim that, overall, most(if not all) melee DD pale in comparison to mages, because melee down right require a few key elements to be worth having around the majority of the time. So sure, if you want to argue that if you were given the choice between two competent dancers or a dancer and thief combination, you'd go with the latter, be my guest.

What I see is you running around talking about inane random shit now because you don't want to reply after you got your ass handed to you.

The most your arguments can ever add up to is "A 3 support PT is better than a 2 support PT" -- that will never equate to specifically DNC > THF. The most you could strain to is Support > DD but as I showed even that is a stretch in the context of merits.

Quote

And you really shouldn't be so quick to discount the damage output of a dancer with no ulterior obligations. You both have access to the same immensely powerful daggers, almost identical equipment, and while you have Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and Feint to work with, dancer has higher inherent accuracy, full-blown Reverse Flourish(which No Foot Rise to support it), and the option to fully merit Saber Dance.

Edit: Not to mention significantly higher attack speed and Berserk.

http://killingifrit....se/page__st__80

This post has been edited by Gredival: 16 July 2010 - 09:25 PM