[Kaparu]

Inane random shit that you don't seem to be able to argue with? Alright then.

And you're honestly throwing a parse at me? A parse of a dancer who was not doing what I cited in my example?

Feel free to refute any of these very simple facts:

- Dancer is more accurate
- Dancer attacks faster
- Dancer gains TP faster
- Dancer has access to every non-Mandau dagger worth using
- Dancer can utilize nearly identical equipment
- Dancer can maintain Berserk to go along with their higher dual wield trait
- Dancer has a job ability that causes them to DA significantly more often than you can TA at any given time

I'm not going to say that dancer is a better DD than thief(although is not out of the realm of possibility), but you're making a tiny crack out to be a massive chasm.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 17 July 2010 - 12:54 AM

[rambus]

Kaparu, on 17 July 2010 - 12:50 AM, said:

Inane random shit that you don't seem to be able to argue with? Alright then.

And you're honestly throwing a parse at me? A parse of a dancer who was not doing what I cited in my example?

Feel free to refute any of these very simple facts:

- Dancer is more accurate
- Dancer attacks faster
- Dancer gains TP faster
- Dancer has access to every non-Mandau dagger worth using
- Dancer can utilize nearly identical equipment
- Dancer can maintain Berserk to go along with their higher dual wield trait
- Dancer has a job ability that causes them to DA significantly more often than you can TA at any given time

I'm not going to say that dancer is a better DD than thief(although is not out of the realm of possibility), but you're making a tiny crack out to be a massive chasm.

according to your list it seems you are claiming just that, by your list how does a thf out damage a dancer then?

also if they are doing such amazing damage now why not just make them tank? treeno said before and i keep trying to tell this to people, /nin is for UTSUSEMI more then duel weild. if it subs war, bersersks and do all this damage like you say its gonna do what you think is gonna happen? gonna become tank

you herd it here focks, a party of a dnc tank, 2 dnc dd, DNC cure, BRD, cor can take on anything

though i do think SE went overboard with buffing the job because of the bad stigma it has like it did to pup.

you have to remember though DNC got a big buff being 80, thf got one verually useless job ability.

like you said " there is little difference of gear between dnc and thf weapon and all", what about this:

synthetic, on 15 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

melee brd > dnc

they all have the same weapons now, im sure there is a lot of shared gear now between the 3 jobs.

This post has been edited by rambus: 17 July 2010 - 02:32 AM

[ironwall]

You should just stop comparing them, I've seen WHM/NINs that could DD and heal in parties. Comparing them is retarded; DNC can Buff and heal a PT, they also can dd and debuff a mob.

A THF can dd and control the hate of a mob to an extent, both are superior in it's own ways. Neither better than the other. It depends on who plays the job, how they play the job and how the job is geared

[Gredival]

Quote

I'm not going to say that dancer is a better DD than thief(although is not out of the realm of possibility), but you're making a tiny crack out to be a massive chasm.

Even if that DNC in my parse wasn't doing solely DD, he was 30% behind. If DNC could actually produce he shouldn't be anywhere near that far behind, even with other duties. And really he wasn't healing much, and he would Haste Samba anyway, so I don't know how he fell so far behind really.

Really DNC damage is like COR damage, it's a nice plus but it's a very very very small one. Theoretical damage is a lot more than what they will actually contribute.

Kaparu, on 17 July 2010 - 12:50 AM, said:

- Dancer is more accurate

Only one accuracy trait really counts; they are also 13 skill behind.

Quote

- Dancer can utilize nearly identical equipment

Far worse weapon skill gear, and they don't have nearly the same benefits of the gear without SA/TA

Quote

- Dancer can maintain Berserk to go along with their higher dual wield trait

Either they will be able to ride this because they are doing shitty damage, or in your bizzaro world where they do damage they'll get their faces raped. Contrary to popular belief mobs do not die so fast enough that they literally get no TP moves or meele swings off.

Quote

- Dancer has access to every non-Mandau dagger worth using

A bigger factor than you make it out to be given the transformative effect it has on the job. I don't think THF needs it to beat DNC, but if you want to consider maxed THF vs maxed DNC, it isn't even a competition with Mandau in play.

[Banter]

You must play with some terrible CORs.

[pathwriter]

Gredival, on 17 July 2010 - 05:49 AM, said:

Only one accuracy trait really counts; they are also 13 skill behind.

How do you figure? The first rank of Accuracy Bonus alone brings them neck-and-neck with Thief (13 x .9 = 11.7, a negligible difference) and nowhere have I seen an indication that Thief gets Accuracy Bonus traits

[ryolen]

Remember i have both 80 and its not biased cuz i love both jobs. Since Gredival was talking about relics n shit lol, DNC with their Terp mythic gets not 2, but 3 Finishing Moves per step sooo look.

Building Flourish is 15 second recast that can consume upto 3 Finishing Moves, it works like this.

1FM: Enhances acc for ur ws
2FM: Enhances acc + attk for ur ws.
3FM: Enhances acc+attk+crit hit rate for ur ws.

Main hand mythic, sub the evisceration +10% dmg, put 3 FM on building flourish, every 30sec u get tp, ur good to go. So basicly 10TP will give us enhanced acc/attk/crit rate, and by a decent margin. This ability, Building Flourish can also be merited for an extra 10acc 5%attk and 5% crit rate on top of the +10 or +15 it already gives lol.

THAT is the only reason my DNC ws can even come close to my THF, sometimes even passing it. The high ass Double Attacking mixed with maxed out Building Flourish is a sic combination. Alot sicker than Sneak or Trick attacks, and with only a 15 sec recast meaning that if ur getting tp every 30sec, u can ws on point.

[rambus]

pathwriter, on 17 July 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:

How do you figure? The first rank of Accuracy Bonus alone brings them neck-and-neck with Thief (13 x .9 = 11.7, a negligible difference) and nowhere have I seen an indication that Thief gets Accuracy Bonus traits

http://wiki.ffxiclop.../Accuracy_Bonus

says III now

they should jsut give all jobs that dont have A+ combat skill acc bonus traits, or jobs that does not get a lot of exp invites seems like the current logic.

so thf, pup,nin, blm need acc bonus traits, while blm gets tp reterns while nuking.

anyways what about these daggers, dex 6, acc 12 or str 6 attack 16

the evisceration dagger.

we already seen why the oat 2-3 is bad

oh treeno thf has a bonus crt damage bonus now along with dnc and war

This post has been edited by rambus: 17 July 2010 - 01:17 PM

[ironwall]

I know for a fact when I used to merit DNC in parties the only times a THF would out damage me on a WS by a considerate amount of damage were; He stacked SATA WS, landed a triple attacked SA or TA WS or I failed to use BF before WS. On mobs without the piercing bonus I average around 850-1000 a DE, how that DNC was doing 500 and under baffles me.

(Also my WS damage was pre 80 cap with a solid level 75 dd set subbing ninja, I haven't been on to try DNC/SAM or DNC/WAR since the update because my pc's CPU burnt out and I just recently got another pc.)

This post has been edited by ironwall: 17 July 2010 - 02:25 PM

[Gredival]

pathwriter, on 17 July 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:

How do you figure? The first rank of Accuracy Bonus alone brings them neck-and-neck with Thief (13 x .9 = 11.7, a negligible difference) and nowhere have I seen an indication that Thief gets Accuracy Bonus traits

I was under the impression DNC only gets Acc Bonus II (thats what it says on the main Dancer page on Wiki) but apparently the Accuracy Bonus Trait page lists Dancer under III.

ironwall said:

I know for a fact when I used to merit DNC in parties the only times a THF would out damage me on a WS by a considerate amount of damage were; He stacked SATA WS, landed a triple attacked SA or TA WS or I failed to use BF before WS. On mobs without the piercing bonus I average around 850-1000 a DE, how that DNC was doing 500 and under baffles me.

(Also my WS damage was pre 80 cap with a solid level 75 dd set subbing ninja, I haven't been on to try DNC/SAM or DNC/WAR since the update because my pc's CPU burnt out and I just recently got another pc.)

1. A large part of Thief play comes with knowing how to use SA and TA. Stacking is very important to improving damage and knowing when to stack and when to save can make or break a THF as a DD.

2. Those were Ahriman. They're pretty strong though (IT to 79)... I'm not sure they are weak to piercing, but regardless of what he or I averaged, what is important is the gap between our numbers.

3. Even if he were focusing on other duties (he really wasn't; we had a full time healer) none of it would have impaired his ability to WS in proper gear. The difference in damage is largely due to a massive difference in WS gear: Thief gets Hecatomb and also gets SA to double up the benefits of DEX. Wielding the same dagger we're WS'ing with an extra +140 DMG.

[ironwall]

I know how THF works, I have both DNC and THF at 75. (Unable to log on atm, doing updates on my new pc) The difference I find is despite having the same WS mods, as DNC I don't gear for WS like a THF would. I, instead gear it like a DD with a multi hit WS normally would, ACC > ATTK > STR. Adding some CHR in where it might help. We don't have the spike a THF would from DEX combined with SA.

Perhaps if he tried a different gear set for his TPing and WS, he might see better numbers. Which is why you can bias your opinion on how a DNC fills a role on one parse with an individual DNC. It's been said before but due to the constant negativity DNC has endured about trying other roles aside from support/healer we have a small number of competent players. Maybe that will change with this level cap increase and future ones, as well as more options for gear.

Personally I love my DNC solely for EVA tanking in lowman stuff and soloing.

[Kaparu]

I'm not saying Sneak Attack and Trick Attack aren't massive bonuses, because such a large heap of base damage on an already powerful crit. WS(that's simultaneously benefiting from the DEX in other ways to boot) is a pretty big deal, but you also need to acknowledge that dancer's tend to be the bottom of the barrel of an already predominantly retarded playerbase. Comparing some random idiot to you, who we all know is a very capable and extremely well equipped thief, is simply not fair. As far as your actual retorts go,

- Dancer did get an additional Acc. trait, so they stayed more accurate than thief(beforehand their ABII kept their Acc. above thief's lack of any available trait)

- The lack of Hecatomb and SATA hurts, but as Treelo has demonstrated quite a few times, unstacked Evisceration can be extremely powerful when properly geared

- Damage intake is a non-issue. Even with all of their offensive abilities, a dancer isn't going to compete with anyone competent full-timing Hasso(or MNK). Even then, things really do blow up before damage intake becomes an issue when you're running on just under 80% haste. That's never been an exaggeration.

- The Mandau issue comes back to the whole "reality" thing. A KC-DRK backed by two cure-bomb mules can Souleater for insane damage every 5-6 minutes, and that's just dandy for the people who can actually do that, but most of us can't. That doesn't make it an appropriate sell-point for the job as a whole.

Again, I'm not empirically claiming that dancer is a better DD than thief, but try to consider what it really boils down to:

Thief: SATA, 10% TA rate, better Eviscerations

Dancer: Higher Acc, 40% average DA rate without any weapons or traits(no idea how the DA trait interacts with this), Berserk, 15% lower delay, pseudo-Meditate

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 17 July 2010 - 08:46 PM

[synthetic]

rambus, on 17 July 2010 - 02:28 AM, said:

they all have the same weapons now, im sure there is a lot of shared gear now between the 3 jobs.

tbh i think brd has the best gear options, being able to use the kirin set + heca + access to most of the good daggers. its rediculously easy to cap haste on brd. and i haven't been on in awhile, but my tests with brd evis i was always pretty impressed. unfortunately i never got to try it out in a party before i quit, mostly because my thf drk drg and war were all pretty rediculously geared and no one wanted to let me try out melee brd for funsies.

[Kaparu]

BRD Acc is still awful

[treelo]

Quote

The lack of Hecatomb and SATA hurts, but as Treelo has demonstrated quite a few times, unstacked Evisceration can be extremely powerful when properly geared

Does anyone else love the irony of menluvars staunchly defending Dancer?

[Kaparu]

Almost as much as the stubborn, narrow-minded thieves putting the job down with no facts to support their argument other than, "they can't wear N.Legs"(which, speaking of irony, one of the main contributors of the baseless opposition didn't own for most of the lifespan of their thief).

[treelo]

You act like I've ever needed facts to back anything up in the years I've been posting here.

The fact that you are trying to argue a situational, multi-purpose role for an unwanted job in a discussion that, as always, is about damage speaks volumes. Must I really make the obvious comeback of how DNC blows at managing hate?

Quote

Dancer can utilize nearly identical equipment

Really? What game are you playing? They use daggers, that's about the only similarity. Oh, they can use Antares Harness, I guess you were right.

Quote

- Dancer attacks faster
- Dancer gains TP faster

First of all, lol. Secondly;

Quote

put 3 FM on building flourish, every 30sec u get tp, ur good to go

That isn't faster. It's about the same.

Quote

- Dancer has access to every non-Mandau dagger worth using

I can think of one that immediately springs to mind, no prizes for working out which.

So, this brings your entire basis down to "the world is stupid, therefore I am right." Unfortunately, while I might be all the things you listed originally, I'm not stupid.

Treelo sez: DNC blows. No proof required, I'd put my name next to that statement anywhere.

This post has been edited by treelo: 19 July 2010 - 12:46 PM

[ryolen]

THF only have 2 abilities to enhance their ws and theyre not on a 15sec timer like Building Flourish =/ w.e im not arguin which of the 2 is better.

i just wanted to know which of the 2 weaps was betta; ;

[Konda]

Quote

- Dancer has access to every non-Mandau dagger worth using

This is only true at the moment with lv 80 and SE's strange new love with having people kill EP mobs.

at lv 75, DNC's dagger choices were... pretty bleh and the fact they cant use certain types of daggers (knifes?) such as Blau means they're going to be at a disadvantage with the as-yet unreleased content going to lv99.

At 75, THF could use Mandau, X's and Blau. not to mention sirocco.

Each of these daggers is vastly superior to anything DNC could use at the time... lolalzoth.


With reguards to equipment... DNC can use a good chunk of the equipment THF can, and the lack of hecatomb is not a huge disadvantage these days with the introduction of some quite frankly amazing equipment in the 75-80 range.


DNC shines due to it's ability to provide the rest of the party with 10% additional haste, brining any half decent melee to the haste cap.

Nothing that THF can do can even come close to comparing with this.


That said, having a 40% DA dagger wielding DNC isn't going to be the best thing to have beating on a NM which is higher than lv75. THF can still do competitive WS dmg on harder mobs with mandalic stab, can stick fient, accomplice, and most importantly... TH.


The jobs are chalk and cheese. The similarities more or less end at the fact they both use daggers. DNC's 40% DA is somewhat offset by the fact they need to use TP to carry out their job which is going to hinder thier WS output. And THF is going to suffer due to positional issues in some scinarios, especially in high haste/killspeed situations.

DNC is at a clear advantage in high haste situations, and I know for a fact if I was making a DD party, I'd pick a DNC over a THF any day of the week. Saying otherwise is like suggesting that a BST is more useful than a BRD in a DD party.

[Banter]

The original argument wasn't about who does better damage, but you dicks have turned it into that.