[Hercule]

Apoc = The best for Exp pt / merit pt (all the low DEF mobs)

Rag = The best for High DEF mobs, endgame, dyna etc...

[UNCTGTG]

What really is funny, and always comes up, when people say something sucks about relics, they are just going on hear say, and/or never will own one. I have partied with one and really was impressed. Spoke at length about it with said player. If you want it, get it.

[Bikpik]

Dartalion, on 29 July 2010 - 03:39 AM, said:

exactly, i know its hard to comprehend, this "game i play for fun" concept and all.

As I said, do w/e relic you want, but also do the research behind it and use it properly is all I really care about. Your time you can do w/e you want with it in game.

And everybody has to have the same definition of "fun" as you do?

[Banter]

Relics weren't terribly hard to get, just time consuming. And they're even easier now with how easy it is to low man dynamis. The worst part of relics anymore is doing magians on them, lol.

[Nameless]

IMO what hurt Ragnarok the most is the low delay, which makes it extremely hard to reach 7 hit build without somewhat of a sacrifice in overall gears or food. But with the gear choice we have now (looking at you Goading belt, which I believe will become more common), it isn't very hard to do anymore. With a 7 hit build, it takes about the same amount of time to reach 100% as Apoc (without counting the haste difference) and you do get one extra normal hit during the time frame (which more than enough offsets the base damage difference between the two during TP phase without counting the extra critical hit rate, which is pretty significant). The thing is really the aftermath of Cata, which is far superior since haste is just that awesome and critical hit is just that eh... However, as lvl cap increases and more haste gears coming out in the future, capping gear haste might be a norm when we all hit lvl 99. And at that point, the gap should be narrowed greatly.

Nonetheless this relic doesn't suck, it just isn't as good as apoc for now. And if one day GS got a multi hit WS that can critical, look out...

Btw, anyone got an estimate of how much the improve critical hit rate II do (I believe the lvl 75 version gives 5%, this is probably 10%.. and imaging it increases every update... this is somewhat of an edge cuz what Apoc got is blind the enemy, which is useful but not an offense trait)? and how much Scourge gives (10%-15%)? So that's like 35% total? pretty darn good if you ask me.

[Kaparu]

UNCTGTG, on 29 July 2010 - 07:24 AM, said:

What really is funny, and always comes up, when people say something sucks about relics, they are just going on hear say, and/or never will own one. I have partied with one and really was impressed. Spoke at length about it with said player. If you want it, get it.

ITT: Having to actually own things to know whether they're worthwhile

how i shot math?

[Taint]

The AM of Apoc is what sets it apart. Being able to cap haste with 16% in gear leaves a lot of flexibility for other spots whether its +emn gear for tanking, +stp for xhit (5hit will become the norm) or stacking additional offensive stats. Catas damage is pretty bad but the drain is awesome esp on low end mobs. As for high end mobs, wacking Tia for 100-200 with no other buff then YCurry is nothing to scuff at.

[Kaparu]

Nameless, on 29 July 2010 - 09:11 AM, said:

IMO what hurt Ragnarok the most is the low delay, which makes it extremely hard to reach 7 hit build without somewhat of a sacrifice in overall gears or food. But with the gear choice we have now (looking at you Goading belt, which I believe will become more common), it isn't very hard to do anymore. With a 7 hit build, it takes about the same amount of time to reach 100% as Apoc (without counting the haste difference) and you do get one extra normal hit during the time frame (which more than enough offsets the base damage difference between the two during TP phase without counting the extra critical hit rate, which is pretty significant). The thing is really the aftermath of Cata, which is far superior since haste is just that awesome and critical hit is just that eh... However, as lvl cap increases and more haste gears coming out in the future, capping gear haste might be a norm when we all hit lvl 99. And at that point, the gap should be narrowed greatly.

Nonetheless this relic doesn't suck, it just isn't as good as apoc for now. And if one day GS got a multi hit WS that can critical, look out...

Btw, anyone got an estimate of how much the improve critical hit rate II do (I believe the lvl 75 version gives 5%, this is probably 10%.. and imaging it increases every update... this is somewhat of an edge cuz what Apoc got is blind the enemy, which is useful but not an offense trait)? and how much Scourge gives (10%-15%)? So that's like 35% total? pretty darn good if you ask me.

Except that's exactly what it means. If something takes just as much time and money to obtain as something better, that means it sucks. Would you take someone seriously if they went into a bazaar, saw a Haubergeon +1 and a Cursed Hauberk -1(assuming they possessed the abjuration) for exactly the same price, but decided to purchase the former? No, you wouldn't. Sure, maybe one day haste won't be nearly as difficult to cap in practical ways, but until then, Catastrophe is dark knight's relic weapon.

Also, something, something about idiots pigeonholing "fun". You think its fun being a snowflake, and I think its fun being optimal.

[Kaparu]

Hercule, on 29 July 2010 - 04:58 AM, said:

Apoc = The best for Exp pt / merit pt (all the low DEF mobs)

Rag = The best for High DEF mobs, endgame, dyna etc...

lol

[Banter]

Taint, on 29 July 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

The AM of Apoc is what sets it apart. Being able to cap haste with 16% in gear leaves a lot of flexibility for other spots whether its +emn gear for tanking, +stp for xhit (5hit will become the norm) or stacking additional offensive stats. Catas damage is pretty bad but the drain is awesome esp on low end mobs. As for high end mobs, wacking Tia for 100-200 with no other buff then YCurry is nothing to scuff at.

Does the AM on Cata effect recast?

[Kaparu]

Yes

[Hercule]

Kaparu, on 29 July 2010 - 11:35 AM, said:

lol

You can lol but after some years i parsed hundred of exp pt / merit pt, dyna, einherjar, end game event HNM etc..

And I CAN SAY Great Sword Beat from far scythe on High DEF mobs

And on exp/merit pt Scythe beat from far any Great Sword

I have proof and you just dont have, cause you never parsed it but just talk on forum /bye

PS: I seriously dont have time and want spend time on gather proof and shit + debating with you on this so, you just can dont beleive me if you want or try parsing it yourself.

This post has been edited by Hercule: 29 July 2010 - 01:45 PM

[Kaparu]

If a great sword is beating a scythe, its because your group is terrible, and you shouldn't be on a melee job in the first place.

Also something about parsing being retarded.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 29 July 2010 - 01:54 PM

[Hercule]

Kaparu, on 29 July 2010 - 01:53 PM, said:

If a great sword is beating a scythe, its because your group is terrible, and you shouldn't be on a melee job in the first place.

Also something about parsing being retarded.

Its because Scythe is a lot affected by Attack VS Defence on WS dmg, Greatsword is not + Multi Hits WS usualy suck on High level/DEF mobs, and about Ragnarok a Crtiticals Hit Rate made Pdif to 1 at minimum thats is realy awesome on High DEF mobs.

This post has been edited by Hercule: 29 July 2010 - 02:36 PM

[Kaparu]

Everything you just said is completely incorrect unless you have absolutely no one to enhance you. To reiterate, if you're in such a situation your group is terrible and you should change jobs.

You may as well be telling us that black mage is a better DD than monk, if you're going to base these assessments off situations that don't and shouldn't happen.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 29 July 2010 - 03:11 PM

[Linear]

ITT: Anyone and everyone has a bard, angon and feint rotation at all times. Otherwise you fucking suck. No excuses.

[Kaparu]

Sorry, but if you can't spare a bard for your relic DD, you do suck. No questions asked.

It don't recall the last time I did anything serious without two bards, two dancers, and the occasional corsair. If your linkshell can't put together one bard, you need a new linkshell(and higher standards).

And by the way, my linkshell has about ten active members, and most real linkshells have about twice that.

This post has been edited by Kaparu: 29 July 2010 - 03:27 PM

[Kaparu]

Slightly off topic, but as every day passes it becomes increasingly inexcusable to not have dancers around. While I acknowledge that large-scale paradigm shifts like this take time for (terrible) people to adapt to, the fact that you can have bards handle all of your hasting needs isn't leaving much room for understanding anymore. In almost all merit-style events, healers can be completely replaced by dancers, and considering you should already have a bard present, they can handle the only two relevant things a dancer can't.

[Logan Draconia]

It's your game and your money. Hell, get a club relic if you really wanted to. We wont stop you. We may question your strange logic, but we wont stop you. Point being, if you want Ragnarok, get it, and don't let anyone tell you you're wrong. People may suggest what's better, and they'll more than likely be right when it's a shared suggestion by many, but unless we kick your door down and hold a gun to your head, we cant do crap.

Want Ragnarok? Go get it.

[Banter]

Logan Draconia, on 29 July 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

It's your game and your money. Hell, get a club relic if you really wanted to. We wont stop you. We may question your strange logic, but we wont stop you. Point being, if you want Ragnarok, get it, and don't let anyone tell you you're wrong. People may suggest what's better, and they'll more than likely be right when it's a shared suggestion by many, but unless we kick your door down and hold a gun to your head, we cant do crap.

Want Ragnarok? Go get it.

Except Mjollnir is actually quite good.