[fyreus]

I don't understand game mechanics 100% as far as some things go since some of these are pretty new so here goes. When i was looking over double attack weaponry for blu, rng, and other 2h although i wonder why i didn't see 2h users with it (i laughed when i seen low dmg on double attack +x 2h) at first i can understand 100% now.

So moving on to the bows i noticed this:

and


and started to wonder why the previous was added in knowing that ranged attacks don't really crit as much, but one of the attacks on bow 1has a possibility of missing while on the other hand bow 2 could have a lower activation rate.

While i don't have intimate knowledge of both bows and i really wondered what those two can do and their limitations, i'd like to ask those with one of the two to shaire their experiences or answer a question or two.

How does bow 1 work with Double Shot?
I assume it's a recycled code for a ranged double attack and suffers from the double attack + occasional attacks issue.

Does double shot stack or does it somehow seem noticeable with bow 2?
I know DS has a somewhat low rate in my experience due to lack of enhance or +# gear but i'm really hoping bow 2 has a good activation of 45%+

I won't mention the bow inbetween because it's no different from a 2h (although i can understand TP gain on double attack 2h magian weapons).

At the moment it looks like i'm leaning for bow 2 to kinda go along with the assumption that it's like Double shot enhancement without the chance of missing due to damage modifier alone.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by fyreus: 08 August 2010 - 11:52 AM

[pathwriter]

Double Shot and Occasionally Attacks Twice interact exactly as Double Attack and OAT do. You'll still get a gain from Double Shot, but it'll be interfered with by the bow on occasion. Considering Double Shot has a maximum uptime of 50%, this isn't really a terrible thing.

To my knowledge, no one has yet completed a ranged Magian weapon with Occasionally Deals Double Damage, but if comparison with melee weapons is valid, I would expect the proc rate to be less than 10%.

For pure damage, the high damage OA2 Condor should come out on top. However, you'll go through ammunition very quickly and subsequently generate a huge amount of Enmity. This can make handling the weapon a bit of nuisance, especially because bows are particularly penalized by proximity to their target. Personally, I use Siege Bow and I recommend it, though it is possible to cope with the Enmity issues tied to stronger weapons like the OA2 Condor. The Double Damage Condor should be a fairly acceptable weapon and easier to complete than the OA2 Condor, but it's still quite a bit of work. On the other hand, Siege Bow won't be getting an update when the level cap rises again, so I'll be stuck come September.

The OA3 Condor, by the way, isn't worth even glancing at because of its abysmal damage rating. This is not true of the gun, however, as most of a gun's damage comes from bullets rather than the base weapon.

[fyreus]

The oa2 weapon kinda concerns me as far as mobs moving which kinda messes me up in merit or events (having issues with my windower on 64bit atm so no distance plug in) but the double damage i would hope has a higher process rate or effected by DA since it's in the same category as DA but then again it could be the same category as relic #x dmg but to a lesser extent for all i know. At the risk of sounding dirt cheap, i'd have to consider changing arrow types with an oa2 and stick with stronger arrows the majority of the time with double damage.

As far as a seige bow... i can't get my hands on one if i tried >_> i do alot of lowman things which is fun for me but those things are limited and then there's the thing where my server mainly does money drop/exp abyssea parties... and yeah there's also the upgrade which seems attractive/painful.

*edit* i wonder if the damage modifier is after the damage equation or somewhere in between. i'd love to see a process on sidewinder

This post has been edited by fyreus: 08 August 2010 - 01:11 PM

[Lambtor]

as was already said, i'd probably go with occ dbl dmg just for the fact that you'd never have double shot interfering with it. i'd be extremely disappointed if proc rate was 10% considering the amount of work required to get one of those. i'd like to know if the proc affects all shots of a barrage or if it runs a check on each shot individually.

i personally went down the straight str/ratk longbow elemental path. it's adequate for nearly any situation you'd use a longbow of any type, and i don't have to worry about it becoming obsolete the way siege bow might in a few months. in my personal opinion, the occ dbl dmg, fire path, and gandiva are the bows worth going after. i'm just not a fan of oat on ranged weapons because of the tp/enmity build speed.

[Spider-Dan]

I just don't see the point of ODD compared to OA2. Presuming that their proc rate is the same, the only obvious differences between them (given that landing two shots is going to be very near double damage in damage and enmity generated) are:

1) OA2 goes through more ammo (which we don't care about)
2) OA2 generates more TP

Why would you want a weapon that generates less TP? It doesn't make any sense.

[Lambtor]

does ODD proc on WS or barrage?

[pathwriter]

I have heard that it does not from the third tier aftermath of Gastraphretes. Until someone completes a Double Damage weapon, we have no way of properly evaluating it.

[Hoshiku]

Someone did Goshank and posted about it at BG http://www.bluegartr...t=90728&page=32
For some reason I thought the OAT guns were a better choice than the OAT bows though?

[fyreus]

I'll have to take some time out to complete the double damage bow and test it out if no one else will. I don't think SE will give it a crap procc though knowing that we kinda need this damage lol.

[pathwriter]

Hoshiku, on 10 August 2010 - 07:47 AM, said:

Someone did Goshank and posted about it at BG http://www.bluegartr...t=90728&page=32
For some reason I thought the OAT guns were a better choice than the OAT bows though?

I wonder, did you read? We know plenty about the Occasionally Attacks Twice ranged weapons. We know, to date, nothing about Occasionally Deals Double Damage.

[Spider-Dan]

Why would anyone expect ODD to work on WS?

I mean, seriously. Think this through. Setting aside the fact that relic weapons' similar property does not work on WS, what is the potential proc rate on ODD? (According to Shadida, who has OA2 gun, OA2 rate is ~40%.)

If ODD rate is far less (~10%), regardless of whether it works on WS, ODD is worse.
If ODD rate is equal (~40%) and ODD does NOT work on WS, OA2 is still better (more TP generated).
If ODD rate is equal and ODD DOES work on WS, even relic weapons will get smashed.

This post has been edited by Spider-Dan: 10 August 2010 - 07:16 PM

[pathwriter]

The Occasionally Deals Double Damage effect is parallel the Double Attack +X% on melee weapons. It's feasible that it'd proc on weaponskills, as I'm pretty sure that's the only reason someone would get a weapon with Double Attack +7% (or whatever) versus one with Occasionally Attacks Twice. No one would imagine that OAX on a pair of claws affects Footwork, but it does. The code on these weapons is odd to say the least and relating it to pre-existing weapons is clearly not relevant (e.g., OA2-3x from Magian weapons is very different than that on Soboro, Ridill, and Mercurial Kris).

[Spider-Dan]

pathwriter, on 10 August 2010 - 07:33 PM, said:

The Occasionally Deals Double Damage effect is parallel the Double Attack +X% on melee weapons.

Um, no. Double Shot+x% (or OA2, if you want) is the parallel to +Double Attack %.

Quote

It's feasible that it'd proc on weaponskills, as I'm pretty sure that's the only reason someone would get a weapon with Double Attack +7% (or whatever) versus one with Occasionally Attacks Twice.

a) Someone would get Double Attack +x% instead OA2 for the same reason they get OA2 instead of OA3 or OA8... you can only get the weapons that are available to you.
b) Double/Triple Attack are job traits that have been proven to affect WS. This stands in direct contrast to every other example of ODD (relic) or OAx (Joy, Soboro, Kraken, Jailer weapons).

Quote

No one would imagine that OAX on a pair of claws affects Footwork, but it does.

I think there's a slightly larger data pool for "OAx/ODD weapons on WS" than there is for "OAx with Footwork."

This post has been edited by Spider-Dan: 10 August 2010 - 10:43 PM

[pathwriter]

Spider-Dan, on 10 August 2010 - 10:43 PM, said:

Um, no. Double Shot+x% (or OA2, if you want) is the parallel to +Double Attack %.

Um, no. It isn't. Please go research before contradicting me.

[Hoshiku]

pathwriter, on 10 August 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

I wonder, did you read? We know plenty about the Occasionally Attacks Twice ranged weapons. We know, to date, nothing about Occasionally Deals Double Damage.

I don't think you read my question. It seems like the guns would work better than the bows.

[pathwriter]

I'm pretty sure I pointed out that guns are better in the multi-attack department way back in my first reply. If your heart is set on being a bow Ranger, though, you're really not losing out too badly for finishing a high damage OA2 Condor.

[fyreus]

I think the problem here is that a lot of assumptions are on paper.

This sounds like /war vs /sam again except that we don't know the process rate on ODD. As a rng, i know there are times where i don't want to run about pulling all the enmity in the world and at the same time i know that i want to get good damage in but slightly more than melee by a margin because ranged attacks kinda generate more enmity than melee attacks and can sometimes remove a mob from a perfectly great position from my experience. I aim to avoid that as the line between too much and too little and too much are obvious to us. To knock an ODD without knowing if SE decided to tweak it a bit (some relics have different dmg increases than others btw) or simply recycled without thought, and go solely off paper mechanics, is imho a bit unprofessional. Let's wait and see what things will be like especially in the future update incase they CHANGE it to triple damage or something like a patch to fix it if it's buggy.

Btw i take rng to events (i don't know many or any who merit with rng sadly rofl) and yeah tp is easily gained as a rng, so why try to become a spamurai when we get the job done quite easily? I don't want another nerf D:

*edit* they're missing a few bows on this wiki or in trial. I'd like to see them accidentally add a store TP+9 bow incase the tp goes up come september.
*edit2* if double attack, which doesn't stack with oa2, has a similar activation rate as oa2, then wouldn't double damage have a much higher process rate because of the additional chance of a shot? I assume it's similar to relic weapons mind you.

This post has been edited by fyreus: 11 August 2010 - 11:53 AM

[Lambtor]

the unpredictability of the ODD and OA2-3 are another reason why a str/ratk path isn't necessarily a bad decision. you'll know pretty well what your next shot is going to do damage wise and you can gauge better what you're going to do vs your current enmity.

[Banter]

That's like saying you'd rather wear an STR earring over a Brutal earring on a melee job because you don't like the unpredictability.

[Lambtor]

you seem to know nothing of riding a hate line.