[Banter]

You seem to know nothing of decent tanks.

[Taint]

The best tanks in this game won't keep hate 100% of the time. There is also a big difference between a melee pulling hate and a player outside of AoE range taking hate.

[1]

what Taint said and really I only see 4 bows really worth considering in the trial path.

1. Gandiva : Base Dmg 89 Delay 490

pro: High base Dmg, low base Delay.
cons* Its going to take forever to even get to this base build let alone what is coming in the branching of the paths.

2. Harrier: DMG: 84 Delay: 540
Pro: 10x easier to obtain than Gandiva, fairly decent base dmg and delay.
con: Not a Gandiva *But who is to say what kind of augments will be available in the next update either.

3. Batelour: dmg 80, delay 540 Str+6 rng attack+ 16
Pro: Its fairly competitive with the Harrier and Gandiva with the attribute and rng attack modification
Con: This might be the end of its augment path.

4. Condor: dmg 82 : Delay 540 Occasionally deals double damage.
Pro: Dmg 82 that occasionally deals double damage.
Con: Dmg 82 that occasionally deals double damage.

There are some things that sound really good in theory and but do not work in application.. in FFXI with ranger in particular:

capped Rapid Shot and Snap Shot merits with + Snap shot /Rapid shot gear -> sounds great cause you can shoot faster with randomized instant shots, but this means you pull hate faster.

High dmg rating weapons with double/triple damage: while the spike in dmg on random shots is nice, but its kinda hard to play when you don't know if the next shot is anywhere between 120-560 dmg or 240-1020 dmg dependent on the mob, whether or not TP is at 100%, Barrage and EES are up etc etc.

This post has been edited by 1: 13 August 2010 - 12:38 PM

[pathwriter]

I do so wish they hadn't cancelled the plan to have distance from a mob affect the Enmity gained from ranged attacks. As it stands, the only other jobs in the game who ever have to seriously worry about their enmity are Black Mage and Scholar, but they're both able to control that problem pretty readily instead of being spanked by random procs.

[Banter]

So what you guys are saying is, if you're worried about hate, you should use a crappy weapon. Honestly, if hate is that big of an issue, use a Seige bow. Better yet, use a Longbow and you'll never have to worry about it.

[fyreus]

What we're getting at is that once the mob moves, we also have to move and so does the AOE range. That's something a rng always has to consider when deciding whether to play it safe or face roll a bitch. Looks like that str/att bow is getting added to the list ; ;

edit* lol i love it when a melee goes "..." because they WSed and the mob moved out of range at the same time or right behind them and they're spamming wondering and moving trying to get into focus.

This post has been edited by fyreus: 14 August 2010 - 03:50 AM

[Taint]

Banter, on 13 August 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

So what you guys are saying is, if you're worried about hate, you should use a crappy weapon. Honestly, if hate is that big of an issue, use a Seige bow. Better yet, use a Longbow and you'll never have to worry about it.

Pretty much. A maxed out RNG won't be able to spam during a longer kill. (Relics excluded). RNG has low HP and is very brittle, so yes as a RNG you have to either take hate into consideration or spam arrows with a longbow.

[Banter]

What I'm getting out of this argument from you people, is that you shouldn't try to optimize you gear, and instead should use inferior shit. I mean hell, if you're going to go that far, you might as well show up naked with only an X-bow and some acid bolts. At least you'd be useful to someone.

[fyreus]

Most of us do more than merit so we kinda learn this through experience. If you look at a lot of our gear, we try to add in -enmity on long fights because unlike melee, we take a big beating and dish out a lot of enmity (ranged attacks generate more enmity even if they do less dmg than the melee inf ront of you).

[Banter]

fyreus, on 17 August 2010 - 03:37 PM, said:

Most of us do more than merit so we kinda learn this through experience. If you look at a lot of our gear, we try to add in -enmity on long fights because unlike melee, we take a big beating and dish out a lot of enmity (ranged attacks generate more enmity even if they do less dmg than the melee inf ront of you).

RNG shouldn't take any more damage than a melee using the same sub, and I've never seen any evidence to prove that ranged attacks generate more enmity. If you have some testing to prove otherwise, I'd like to see it, but I'm calling bs until then.

[pathwriter]

Ranged attacks hit harder and situations in which you are using Rangers are generally those in which melee are sub-optimal or otherwise disadvantaged. A Samurai or Monk should be able to hold aggro off a Ranger (special cases like Lugarhoo excepted), but a Paladin is going to have to fight for it because most Paladins full-time Enmity gear and know shit about how to play these days. The real problem for Ranger is that it is locked up for a large part of its playtime by firing and holstering animations, meaning that getting Utsusemi and/or Third Eye up become a huge hassle and quite difficult if you're concerned about DPS, too.

Really, though, the big issue is where Ranger is efficient versus where melee is efficient. If you want to bring Ranger to, let's say, Kirin, you certainly can. Most people have jobs enough leveled, though, that they think in terms of niches. Ranger's niche puts it in tricky places as far as Enmity is concerned.

[Banter]

So what you're saying is most tanks suck. As far as defense, the only thing RNG doesn't that other melees do is a good chunk of HP (which admittedly, does matter a good amount). By the time a RNG is done with its holster animation, the mob is just then getting to it. A good RNG will already have shadows/TE up. Also, RNG can use an Earth staff to gain a large chunk of survivability while losing a generally small amount of damage (depending on X-hit). As well, I can stand behind a good -enmity build. There's just gimping your damage in order to not pull hate, but you can take it a step further and put -enmity on. The reason I knock on stupid shit like the STR/Ratk bow is because Seige bow and OA2/3 guns/bows are readily available; there are generally good -enmity options for RNG in nearly every slot if you're building for that.

[Taint]

RNG animations do suck. I took an L yesterday at KB because of being locked after a WS. I swapped in a pdt set but he was on top of me after a 1500 SW.

[Spider-Dan]

Banter, on 17 August 2010 - 06:22 PM, said:

RNG shouldn't take any more damage than a melee using the same sub,

Stop.

WAR- Defender
MNK- Dodge, Counter (and can self-heal with Chakra)
THF- 5 Evasion Bonus traits, Perfect Dodge
DRK- Weapon Bash, Stun, Dread Spikes (and can self-heal with Drain I/II)
BST- Snarl
DRG- High Jump, Super Jump
SAM- Third Eye
PUP- Ventriloquy (and can self-heal with pet)

That is before considering the fact that all of the above have at least two of the following:

- Parry skill
- Shield skill
- Guard skill
- C rank Evasion (or better)

RNG has the worst evasion in the game, no other innate defensive combat skills, no defensive job traits, and no defensive abilities (lolShadowbind?). RNG gets the entirety of its defense from its subjob, and stands alone in this regard.

[fyreus]

Banter, on 18 August 2010 - 01:31 PM, said:

The reason I knock on stupid shit like the STR/Ratk bow is because Seige bow and OA2/3 guns/bows are readily available; there are generally good -enmity options for RNG in nearly every slot if you're building for that.

I think the reason most of us add the bow in is because some may not have the time to play but get in anytime they can and that soon the str/r.att bow will outclass seige and whatever other bow that's non-magian. It's almost standard to assume anything NOT gandiva/oat2/odd and lv99 will be out cloassed and we may not know what the str/r.att jump will be either. I guess another merit to that bow is good food and the fact that it's pretty much an upgradable e.bow that you won't have to kill X amount of mobs for in this zone every 30mins and you won't need a party to obtain it. I'd be upset if kalamari didn't drop a helmet that lots of 2h wants along side some other hax item iirc. My blu would be forced to go almace or die lol.

In the end, the str/r.att bow seems like a good bow to go for if you're up to the task.

[Dartalion]

or you have happen whats been happening in my ls recently.

3 guys using their points for seige bow, who have never brought rng to events (they're career mages and honestly their gear is pretty terrible) Hell one of them I didn't even know HAD rng to 80....

[Banter]

Spider-Dan, on 20 August 2010 - 08:28 PM, said:

RNG gets the entirety of its defense from its subjob, and stands alone in this regard.

Most of these jobs, bar MNK, get the very large majority of their defense from either Utsusemi and Seigan. DRG is the only one that stands alone in being able to completely get rid of hate. As far as defensive skills, anyone without A skill evasion (or some full time eva gear on B skill) isn't going to see anything above floor on anything that matters, guard is trash, shield is trash on everything but PLD (not even listed but eh) and parry very minor. Again, RNG can also use E.staff to reduce a large amount of damage taken while not losing much damage.

[pathwriter]

Have you ever played Ranger? Have you ever played it in a situation where you're trying to keep yourself alive while continuing to contribute? Ranged attack animations will lock you up for a long time. Even after holstering is done, you get locked out of JAs/spells for a second or two, identically to using a weaponskill. Getting locked out every time you attack does not an efficient defense make. Yes, you should have Utsusemi and Seigan up already, but they'll be wiped fast and you're basically useless swinging a Fire Staff (or Earth Staff, but that would be rather stupid).

The major delimiter on Ranger damage is that it is under 100% player control and can only be sped up to a limited degree. Overall, it means that in situations where melee is comfortably possible, Ranger will probably lag behind other jobs because they're stacking Haste buffs while Ranger is tied to the same speed it has solo. Where Ranger excels, though, is where melee are disadvantaged, which means that your tanks are also disadvantaged. Enmity gets shaky and particularly spiky. Getting tied up trying to recast Utsusemi or hope that Third Eye won't crap out is a fast way to die, as anyone who has actually played Ranger knows. I'm betting you have not, not even at a low level, and you're just talking out of your ass as usual.

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 23 August 2010 - 08:27 AM, said:

Have you ever played Ranger? Have you ever played it in a situation where you're trying to keep yourself alive while continuing to contribute? Ranged attack animations will lock you up for a long time. Even after holstering is done, you get locked out of JAs/spells for a second or two, identically to using a weaponskill. Getting locked out every time you attack does not an efficient defense make. Yes, you should have Utsusemi and Seigan up already, but they'll be wiped fast and you're basically useless swinging a Fire Staff (or Earth Staff, but that would be rather stupid).

The major delimiter on Ranger damage is that it is under 100% player control and can only be sped up to a limited degree. Overall, it means that in situations where melee is comfortably possible, Ranger will probably lag behind other jobs because they're stacking Haste buffs while Ranger is tied to the same speed it has solo. Where Ranger excels, though, is where melee are disadvantaged, which means that your tanks are also disadvantaged. Enmity gets shaky and particularly spiky. Getting tied up trying to recast Utsusemi or hope that Third Eye won't crap out is a fast way to die, as anyone who has actually played Ranger knows. I'm betting you have not, not even at a low level, and you're just talking out of your ass as usual.

lol

[Banter]

P.S. My RNG was 75 shortly after TOAU came out, and was my second 75 job.